GPS Arrival and Departure Procedurs

Ryan Wingard

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GPS Arrival and Departure Procedurs
« on: August 05, 2011, 04:05:38 AM »

I'm new to the large VATSIM community, and so far I love it!  However, there is one area I'm struggling with...

I typically fly GA aircraft, which usually come standard with the Garmin GPS 500.  I've been trying to figure out how to program the departure procedure into the GPS but cannot figure it out.  After some research, I think the answer is that entering a departure procedure into the stock GPS 500 is not possible.  I'd rather not constantly rely on radar vectors - I want to be able to fly departure procedures on my own.

What do I have to do for this to happen?  Are there GPS upgrades I can get, or does it require a payware aircraft?  Once I'm able to figure out how fly DPs and STARs by GPS, I think I'll feel much more comfortable in the VATSIM world.

I appreciate the help!
Thanks,
Ryan

Lucas Cressler

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GPS Arrival and Departure Procedurs
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2011, 04:15:53 AM »
As far as i've figured out you can't load a departure procedure into the default GPS (i'm not sure if there are any addon in which you can). The way I usually do this when I fly something without an FMC is when you are making your flight plan in flight simulator you pull up the departure procedure you flying and you look at the way point. If you hit edit on the flight plan you can drag the line to where you want. You can drag the line to either the fix your flying to or you can drag it, it will make a waypoint then you can edit the waypoint's latitude and longitude to find the fix. you can do the same with STAR's.

I know that sounded pretty confusing if your still confused tell me what your confused on, or wait till someone else comes by with a better solution haha.
ZOB TA
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Michael Corcoran

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« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2011, 09:48:02 AM »
Ryan,

Try using [a href=\\\"http://simroutes.com/\\\" target=\\\"_blank\\\"]http://simroutes.com/[/a] .  Go to "Generate Routes."  Here you can upload your own route to the GPS, including a departure procedure.  I do warn you however, that some of them are a little out dated, so it may be best for you to write in the way points one-by-one as seen in the chart.  After you hit "Generate Route" and on the next page "Download Flight plan," you can save the FPL file and open it up in flight simulator by loading it through the flight planning area.  
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Lucas Cressler

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« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2011, 09:53:55 AM »
ah that to though I recommend search route first to see if there is one already there because generating one takes a little more planing
ZOB TA
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Ryan Wingard

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« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2011, 03:58:38 PM »

When i go to create/load my own departure procedure, how will i do that without coordinates? All of the RNAV DPs i've looked at so far don't have coordinates next to the waypoints.

Thanks for all your help
Ryan

Lucas Cressler

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« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2011, 05:51:58 PM »
if you wanna do an RNAV you'll have to use simroutes because like you said they don't have coordinates
ZOB TA
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Ryan Wingard

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« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2011, 06:01:02 PM »
Ok - flying RNAV DPs is the only way to proceed with departure without radar vectors (most of the time) correct?

Lucas Cressler

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« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2011, 06:07:45 PM »
afirm depending on the RNAV some start literally the second your in the air others they will give you vectors to the first fix before telling you to fly the what ever you have filed
ZOB TA
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Ryan Wingard

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« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2011, 11:28:11 PM »
Do I get to choose which departure procedure I want to do, or is that something that is sort of randomly assigned by ATC?

Lucas Cressler

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« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2011, 11:56:20 PM »
most procedures work from any runway however you have to make sure you have the right first fix filed i sure someone with more RNAV departure procedure can comment here haha. We only have RNAV arrivals at ZOB and i don't have as much experience with departures
ZOB TA
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Don Desfosse

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« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2011, 10:31:20 AM »
The point behind the RNAV DPs is that you are using them the second you are in the air; no vectors required.  ATC assigns the DPs.  However, there are a few things you can do to pretty much guarantee that you'll get the RNAV DP that you want....

1. File a real world, really assigned ATC routing.  A great place to find these is fltplan.com  
2. Decide that whatever is done in the RW is what you want to fly
3. File the RNAV DP fix in the title, or if you have options, the transition that you want as your first fix

For example, Boston just added 8 new RNAV DPs in the past 9 months.  It used to be that if you wanted to fly KBOS-JFK, you would normally file:
LUCOS SEY PARCH CCC ROBER

ATC would normally assign the LOGANx (where x is the current number, e.g. LOGAN6) Departure, which is a radar vector DP.  Assuming you filed the above, your clearance would normally sound like:

"American 123, cleared to Kennedy via the LOGAN6 departure, radar vectors LUCOS, then as filed.  Maintain 5000, expect FLxxx 10 minutes after departure...."  

So even though you wouldn't file LOGAN6, ATC would assign it.

But life has changed. One of the 8 new DPs at Boston is the SSOXS DP (currently the SSOXS2).  AND, Boston now uses RNAV DPs as a standard/default.

So, nowadays you'd file:
SSOXS LUCOS SEY PARCH CCC ROBER (note you're just filing the fix, not SSOXS2)

Your clearance would normally sound like:
"American 123, cleared to Kennedy via the SSOXS2 RNAV Departure, LUCOS transition, then as filed.  Expect FLxxx 10 minutes after departure...."  

So again, even though you wouldn't file SSOXS2, ATC would assign it.


Also note that in the first example, your clearance specifically told you to expect 5000 initially, but the second clearance did not state that.  That's because, in most RNAV DPs, the initial altitude to maintain is written right into the DP.


Other example.  Nowadays, for airports that now use RNAV DPs as a standard, even pilots who file an "old" route but indicate that they are advanced navigation capable (GPS, RNAV, INS, etc.) will likely receive an RNAV DP in their clearance.

For example, AAL123 files KBOS-KJFK with a route of LUCOS SEY PARCH CCC ROBER and is flying a H/B744/G.  Guess what.  His clearance will be via the SSOXS2 RNAV Departure, LUCOS transition, then as filed.

These RNAV DPs are springing up across the country fast and furious.  Since many pilots are still using default aircraft and/or GPSs with default navigation fixes, it's entirely possible that many pilots may not be able to navigate to all the new fixes on all these new RNAV DPs.  The FAA recommends that pilots who cannot, or do not wish to, fly STARs and/or DPs file "No DP/STAR" in their flight plan.  My suggestion for pilots who cannot, or do not wish to, fly RNAV DPs is to include "No RNAV DPs" in their flight plan, or at least verbally tell the clearance delivery controller that they do not wish an RNAV DP.  This practice would greatly aid the controller who is trying to figure out quickly and efficiently which DP to assign.  Because if you don't, here's what could happen (happens every day at KBOS nowadays....):

1. Pilot files KBOS-KJFK with a route of LUCOS SEY PARCH CCC ROBER and is flying a H/B744/G.  
2. Pilot is cleared via the SSOXS2 RNAV Departure, LUCOS transition, then as filed.
3. Pilot reads back his clearance (and therefore accepts the RNAV DP!!!)
[some intermediate steps omitted for brevity]
4. Pilot takes off and heads straight out, or turns directly toward LUCOS, or does some other wacky thing....
5. Controller asks AAL123 where he's going
6. Pilot says, "Straight out" or "Direct LUCOS" or "The controller never gave me a heading" or "Gee, I dunno...."
7. Controller gently reminds pilot that he was cleared for the RNAV DP and therefore should be following it
8. Pilot complains loudly that he can't fly the RNAV DP and the controller screwed up by giving it to him....
Yadda yadda yadda


A fellow VATSIM pilot, Graham Mitchell, has graciously developed and shared with the community updates for the default MSFS GPS.  These can be found on his website: http://www.btinternet.com/~gb.mitch/index.html  A discussion can be found on the VATSIM forums: http://forums.vatsim.net/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=30992  With these updates, it is possible to fly the RNAV DPs (and STARs as well) by using the GPS.  It's a bit of plugging in direct-to waypoints fast and furious right after takeoff, but it can certainly be done.  


We're all in this together, and we all want to have a good time.  Situations like the above are frustrating for everyone.  That said, hopefully the explanation and tips and tricks provided here help a little bit!
« Last Edit: August 06, 2011, 11:02:52 AM by Don Desfosse »
Don Desfosse
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Cameron Negrete

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GPS Arrival and Departure Procedurs
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2011, 01:12:39 AM »
Quote from: Don Desfosse
The point behind the RNAV DPs is that you are using them the second you are in the air; no vectors required.  ATC assigns the DPs.  However, there are a few things you can do to pretty much guarantee that you'll get the RNAV DP that you want....
long live DC9's?

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