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General => The Flight Deck => Topic started by: Shane VanHoven on January 03, 2017, 10:50:00 PM

Title: How/Why/When of Initial Contact w/ ATC (A look at COC)
Post by: Shane VanHoven on January 03, 2017, 10:50:00 PM
Hey everyone. I hope you all had a great and safe new years celebration.

I wanted to open a discussion about making initial contact with a controller. This is based on an experience I had while controlling yesterday evening.

First off, here's what happened. I was plugged in as Minneapolis center. It was slow, but steady. Definitely more than usual for a Monday night. I noticed a target flying eastbound over eastern Montana, eventually entering my airspace over the Dakotas. In the neighborhood of 30 miles from the border of my airspace, I sent the aircraft a contact request message. Seconds later, the pilot checked on my frequency. Great! Except what they had to say was the following: "I'm still outside of your airspace, and I will contact you when I enter it."

Folks, that isn't how this works. In a nutshell, the Code of Conduct says pilots shall watch out for Air Traffic services, and contact them when appropriate. But it also says that the bottom line is if the pilot receives a contact request message, the pilot should immediately contact that controller. Normally, I hardly ever send contact request messages. I put the responsibility on the pilot to make such contact, because, well, that's what the COC says. The reason I sent this one was because the pilot happened to be apart of a group flight. In order for me to maintain positive control of aircraft within my airspace, contact with the aircraft was required, albeit a little early.

I invite everyone to discuss below.
Title: Re: How/Why/When of Initial Contact w/ ATC (A look at COC)
Post by: Camden Bruno on January 04, 2017, 12:36:49 AM
VATSIM Code of Conduct Section B, Sub-Section 3:
Quote
A pilot must at all times check for appropriate air traffic control coverage for the airspace he is crossing at any given time. If there is an appropriate air traffic controller available or upon request to make contact with an appropriate air traffic controller, then the pilot should immediately contact such controller.

Nothing wrong with what you did. Just someone who felt like being stubborn. If you need to contact someone who will be entering your airspace shortly to ensure separation, B(3) allows to you to so with what I have bolded above.
Title: Re: How/Why/When of Initial Contact w/ ATC (A look at COC)
Post by: Ryan Parry on January 04, 2017, 12:42:23 AM
So, as far as a contact me goes. Does the controller not share the responsibility to send a contact me at an appropriate time? So for example, if I am in the flight levels descending down and a tower controller sends me a contact me, I'd be required to contact him despite clearly being well outside of his airspace? Should a controller send a premature contact me, does the pilot not have the right to refuse in that situation? Not saying your example was wrong, I'd say that was well within an acceptable range of your border, but this has to be thought about for all positions and situations.

I think it is fair to say it is up to the pilot to contact ATC when appropriate per the CoC, but should the pilot fail to do so it is up to the controller to send a contact me to avoid any potential conflicts within your airspace. That's why the contact me function exists. Should a pilot fail to respond to a few contact me requests you simply send it to a SUP. Lets be real about this for a minute, despite what the CoC says I'd bet big money on the majority of pilots not paying any attention while in cruise because they are on facebook, youtube, or whatever other site simply waiting to hear the vPilot/FSINN/Squawkbox ding at them with a contact me request.

Personally, I just send a contact me when I want them to call me up. It's one key stroke and slew, no big deal for me. If I need a SUP because somebody isn't responding, then I call a SUP.
Title: Re: How/Why/When of Initial Contact w/ ATC (A look at COC)
Post by: Daniel Hawton on January 04, 2017, 08:54:00 AM
Ryan, by letter of the CoC the responsibility is completely on the pilot.  By spirit, it's shared for a multitude of reasons including helping the pilot figure out where your boundary is.  It's a horse that has been beaten to death several times on the VATSIM forums over the years.  But if you read the CoC, the letter clearly indicates it is the responsibility of the pilot to contact ATC and not the other way around... it's should be considered bad practice.  Local controllers, ground and clearance are easy to figure out who owns what, terminal radars are a bit different for non-primary airports, and enroute unless you know how to read charts is even more so.
Title: Re: How/Why/When of Initial Contact w/ ATC (A look at COC)
Post by: Charles Messina on January 04, 2017, 01:03:01 PM
I've always wondered about pilots who don't call when a controller is online.  It seems completely antithetical to the purpose and spirit of VATSIM.  Typically, I chalk it up to either: A.) The pilot is scared to talk to ATC;  B.) the pilot is pooping; C.) the pilot doesn't know he is supposed to talk to ATC.  Or some variation of one of those three.

Assuming my airspace is not too busy and the nordo pilot is not in danger of causing an incident, I often like to just wait and see if they call.  It's almost a game, really!  How far across my ARTCC will DAL5722 get before he wakes up?  I've only had a few make it all the way, but why get annoyed about it?
Title: Re: How/Why/When of Initial Contact w/ ATC (A look at COC)
Post by: Shane VanHoven on January 04, 2017, 02:06:23 PM
How far across my ARTCC will DAL5722 get before he wakes up?  I've only had a few make it all the way, but why get annoyed about it?

I'm normally the same way. But in this particular case, my biggest issue was that the pilot in this case tuned my freq, and openly refused. It was about him not knowing, or being away, or anything other than the fact that he wanted to make a point.
Title: Re: How/Why/When of Initial Contact w/ ATC (A look at COC)
Post by: Mark Hubbert on March 09, 2017, 07:15:13 PM
I am a big supported of using the Contact Me feature.  I dont care what the COC says.  Why do people get online?  Either they want to fly in a simulated environment (meaning they want to be controlled) or they want to control aircraft.  I know that it can be argued that there are maps etc. that tell you when to contact ATC etc.  There is no simulator that I am aware of that will tell you who's airspace you are in when you are flying.  Everybody wants to talk about the real world this and the real world that.  In the real world an enroute controller would hand you off to the next facility, since we can not guarantee who will be on and who will not, this is not an area of realism that we can accurately simulate.

My thinking is if you want to control that aircraft, send a contact me.  On the flip side, I have had controllers who never contacted me and they were not online when I entered there airspace and when I realized that they were online and contacted them, i got an attitude; my thoughts STICK IT!!!  If you wanted to control me, then you should have contacted me and let me know you were online.  If a pilot does contact you before you contact him than Wooooo Hoooooo.  We are supposed to work together to have fun and make this hobby fun.  I applaud you for sending the contact me, if you do it again, I will applaud you again and if a pilot gives you any flack, give him a .wallop
Title: Re: How/Why/When of Initial Contact w/ ATC (A look at COC)
Post by: Krikor Hajian on March 09, 2017, 07:24:17 PM
I am a big supported of using the Contact Me feature.  I dont care what the COC says.  Why do people get online?  Either they want to fly in a simulated environment (meaning they want to be controlled) or they want to control aircraft.  I know that it can be argued that there are maps etc. that tell you when to contact ATC etc.  There is no simulator that I am aware of that will tell you who's airspace you are in when you are flying.  Everybody wants to talk about the real world this and the real world that.  In the real world an enroute controller would hand you off to the next facility, since we can not guarantee who will be on and who will not, this is not an area of realism that we can accurately simulate.

My thinking is if you want to control that aircraft, send a contact me.  On the flip side, I have had controllers who never contacted me and they were not online when I entered there airspace and when I realized that they were online and contacted them, i got an attitude; my thoughts STICK IT!!!  If you wanted to control me, then you should have contacted me and let me know you were online.  If a pilot does contact you before you contact him than Wooooo Hoooooo.  We are supposed to work together to have fun and make this hobby fun.  I applaud you for sending the contact me, if you do it again, I will applaud you again and if a pilot gives you any flack, give him a .wallop

Agreed. As well, many programs such as VATSpy only show part of the airspace, sometimes committing important shelves, such as the one shared by ZBW and ZDC at or above FL240. Anyone looking at VATSpy who does not understand the airspace would wonder why they are not contacting New York Center, and indeed I've had many pilots who disregard the frequency I give and do just that.

IMO, if you want to talk to a pilot, send a contactme. Send it at the location where you would normally receive a handoff, radar identify the aircraft, and bring them in. I will add that I have seen an over-reliance on contactme's that can lead to issues. Earlier today, I had an aircraft depart an untowered field. They were filed IFR to a towered, class B airport in my airspace, however I was online before they departed, so I assumed they were proceeding VFR because they did not call me. Eventually, the aircraft overflew the airport by a significant amount, was actually into another ARTCC's airspace, and called saying he never received a contactme. Pilots also need to be aware who's online, especially if they're departing untowered ops and remaining in Class E airspace, where they are not required to contact a controller if VFR.
Title: Re: How/Why/When of Initial Contact w/ ATC (A look at COC)
Post by: Rick Rump on March 10, 2017, 07:49:58 AM
I actually did a little experiment the other night. I only sent contact me requests to immediately necessary (landing in or nearby), so overflights were the target here.
In 90 minutes I only had 1 out of 4 contact me on their own volllition. Low sample size but the lack of people paying attention when on a long flight is one issue.
Add to that when I do send s contact me, I get a PM 20% of the time saying "roger" or "ok" -- yet the contact me says do not respond via PM.  Reading comprehension :/
Title: Re: How/Why/When of Initial Contact w/ ATC (A look at COC)
Post by: Shane VanHoven on March 12, 2017, 06:44:08 AM
I actually did a little experiment the other night. I only sent contact me requests to immediately necessary (landing in or nearby), so overflights were the target here.
In 90 minutes I only had 1 out of 4 contact me on their own volition. Low sample size but the lack of people paying attention when on a long flight is one issue.
Add to that when I do send s contact me, I get a PM 20% of the time saying "roger" or "ok" -- yet the contact me says do not respond via PM.  Reading comprehension :/

That rate get's even worse when you work "overflight, USA" (ZMP being one of them). There have been days in the past were I will plug in for 3 hours, a literally only talk to 4 airplanes. Those 4 airplanes are the only ones that called me on their own, the rest flew right across the sky without talking.
Title: Re: How/Why/When of Initial Contact w/ ATC (A look at COC)
Post by: Brin Brody on March 13, 2017, 01:51:40 PM
I actually did a little experiment the other night. I only sent contact me requests to immediately necessary (landing in or nearby), so overflights were the target here.
In 90 minutes I only had 1 out of 4 contact me on their own volition. Low sample size but the lack of people paying attention when on a long flight is one issue.
Add to that when I do send s contact me, I get a PM 20% of the time saying "roger" or "ok" -- yet the contact me says do not respond via PM.  Reading comprehension :/
That rate get's even worse when you work "overflight, USA" (ZMP being one of them). There have been days in the past were I will plug in for 3 hours, a literally only talk to 4 airplanes. Those 4 airplanes are the only ones that called me on their own, the rest flew right across the sky without talking.

Exactly right...  Try working Alaska!  I've had guys go the full 500 miles across, give or take a few miles, that don't even think to call me, until I send them a request.

While it is officially our responsibility to send contact requests, I feel like I send quite a few too many, and some pilot participation in keeping the airspace running as intended would be much appreciated.

Just my humble take on things.  ;)
Title: Re: How/Why/When of Initial Contact w/ ATC (A look at COC)
Post by: William Anderson on March 13, 2017, 02:39:00 PM

While it is officially our responsibility to send contact requests, I feel like I send quite a few too many, and some pilot participation in keeping the airspace running as intended would be much appreciated.

Just my humble take on things.  ;)

Looking at the CoC, B3: A pilot must at all times check for appropriate air traffic control coverage for the airspace he is crossing at any given time. If there is an appropriate air traffic controller available or upon request to make contact with an appropriate air traffic controller, then the pilot should immediately contact such controller.

It's not entirely our responsibility to send contact me's. The OR in the policy not only puts the responsibility on us but the pilots as well. I still think pilots, especially in Europe, have become so dependent on the contact me's that they come to expect it and if they don't receive one, it is entirely our fault.

This may be going into too much analysis of this policy, but it sounds like this was the initial intention for the policy, but then they had to add "or upon request" because no one was doing it on their own.

 "A pilot must at all times check for appropriate air traffic control coverage for the airspace he/she is crossing at any given time. If there is an appropriate air traffic controller available, then the pilot should immediately contact such controller."

This is the way I look at it: I have found that the pilots who are on the network to be controlled, will contact you on their own. In fact, about 75% of pilots contact me without the use of that feature. The only time I would send Contact me's is when the aircraft will be going into an adjacent ARTCC.

If people get angry about it, I educate them on the CoC and ways they can find out where they are in respect to the controllers online (VAT-SPY, vataware ETC).

I have been doing this system for about a year, and I haven't had any major issues. That being said, I control in a ARTCC where there are not many overflights, so that may have an affect on the above points.

Title: Re: How/Why/When of Initial Contact w/ ATC (A look at COC)
Post by: Ira Robinson on March 13, 2017, 04:07:21 PM
I don't see where the pilot has much cause to complain that they don't know when ATC is available.  I understand VATSPY isn't that accurate and there isn't anything else out there to tell a pilot exactly when they enter or leave a specific airspace, but VATSPY still gives you a good idea of where you are. And there are still other things that give a pilot good idea of what's going on.   

I haven't used any program but vPilot for a while now so my memory is a bit weak on this, but I do know that vPilot lists the ATC that is online and in range.  I seem to recall that FSInn and Squawkbox do that as well, right??  I also wonder that if you see someone online and you know your route well enough to estimate if and when you may be crossing into that controlled airspace.  Not to mention you have the opportunity to tune in a frequency and listen in to hear what the story is around you.

So where's the excuse I didn't know you were online?  That being said, I will absolutely send a contact me if I have to.  The pilot may not want to simulate live traffic but I sure as heck do and I will  not let some inconsiderate [person] ruin my time online if I can help it.


Title: Re: How/Why/When of Initial Contact w/ ATC (A look at COC)
Post by: Shane VanHoven on March 14, 2017, 08:53:07 AM
While it is officially our responsibility to send contact requests..

Strictly speaking, us controllers have no responsibility to send contact requests. The responsibility lies 100% on the pilot according to the language of the COC.
Title: Re: How/Why/When of Initial Contact w/ ATC (A look at COC)
Post by: Daniel Hawton on March 14, 2017, 09:11:15 AM
While it is officially our responsibility to send contact requests..

Strictly speaking, us controllers have no responsibility to send contact requests. The responsibility lies 100% on the pilot according to the language of the COC.

Accurate Shane.  The pilot does have that responsibility. But, while not in the rules, VATSIM is a learning environment so controllers should aid the pilots with contact requests. While supping, I've been called by ATC for a pilot failing to contact, and when I ask when the contact me was sent got "never sent one". Turned into an education lesson for both. It takes a second to hit "home" and click to send that contact me request, really no reason not to. But, strictly speaking by the letter of the CoC the pilots are 100% responsible and, playing devil's advocate, a weak case of the CoR that not sending a contact me could blocks the pilot's ability to enjoy the network.
Title: Re: How/Why/When of Initial Contact w/ ATC (A look at COC)
Post by: Toby Rice on March 14, 2017, 09:20:58 AM
The battle between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law is real...
Title: Re: How/Why/When of Initial Contact w/ ATC (A look at COC)
Post by: Shane VanHoven on March 14, 2017, 11:34:04 AM
While supping, I've been called by ATC for a pilot failing to contact, and when I ask when the contact me was sent got "never sent one". Turned into an education lesson for both. It takes a second to hit "home" and click to send that contact me request, really no reason not to.

Yeah I completely agree and wasn't arguing that. I won't call a Supervisor until I've sent multiple contact requests without response over a period of at least 20-25 minutes unless the aircraft is causing conflicts.

On an unrelated note, I wonder how many (if any) "average joe" pilots around the network are reading this thread. The question isn't what does the COC say, it's why don't many pilots know that they are supposed to be aware of the rules. What's the point of spending all that time writing rules if nobody is going to be required to follow them?

The battle between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law is real...

Again, not arguing what the law is. Sometimes I just feel like we should be holding pilots to a higher standard. Not even with the training aspect, but the feedback, the self motivation for success... There is a certain expectation for controller to know what they're doing, and if a controller doesn't know what their doing, pilots have the option to post feedback on the facilities' website in order to help with the improvement of the facility. So such thing exists in the other direction unless individual virtual airlines create their own feedback system.

VATSIM is a learning environment

If it's a learning environment, why does it feel like many pilots aren't taking the initiative to learn? Maybe that is a slight overgeneralization, but there is some truth to it, because conversations like this shouldn't need to exist, we should be able to spend our time on higher level topics. 
Title: Re: How/Why/When of Initial Contact w/ ATC (A look at COC)
Post by: Daniel Hawton on March 14, 2017, 01:15:10 PM

VATSIM is a learning environment

If it's a learning environment, why does it feel like many pilots aren't taking the initiative to learn? Maybe that is a slight overgeneralization, but there is some truth to it, because conversations like this shouldn't need to exist, we should be able to spend our time on higher level topics.

I can say the exact same for controllers. I know more than a dozen by name.  But like the real world .. not everyone participates the way things were intended.
Title: Re: How/Why/When of Initial Contact w/ ATC (A look at COC)
Post by: Mark Hubbert on March 14, 2017, 06:55:59 PM
Quote
Strictly speaking, us controllers have no responsibility to send contact requests. The responsibility lies 100% on the pilot according to the language of the COC.

Per COC you are correct.   The bottom line is, I think that there is a responsibility on both the pilot and controller not one or the other.  The goal should be to have fun and enjoy the hobby.
Title: Re: How/Why/When of Initial Contact w/ ATC (A look at COC)
Post by: Sergio Lopez on March 15, 2017, 09:17:41 AM
My 2 cents:

As a pilot I have flown through complete centers without the slightest contact me being received. I knew I was in their airspace (Vattastic). I wanted to test it and see how long it would take him to contact me (in 2 occassions they never did). In my mind, it was the controllers responsibility to notify me if he wanted to talk to me, if not I would just continue on my way (mostly on over flights).

Now reading this, it seems to be a responsibility from both parties, therefore I will reach out to the controller in the case he doesn't reach out to me first.

Again, I've only had this happen about 2 times in all my years flying. Usually controllers are very quick at sending a contact me as soon as you approach or enter their airspace. Or I reach out to them if I see them pop up.
Title: Re: How/Why/When of Initial Contact w/ ATC (A look at COC)
Post by: Christopher Olmstead on March 15, 2017, 10:54:03 PM
To echo most of what people have said, it's the responsibility of both sides. But we have to look at all areas on the spectrum of experience. Most of us here got into aviation because of VATSIM or looked to further our involvement in aviation with it. Regardless, we all started at what most of us would consider a "noob" level at some point. The typical brand new pilot to VATSIM has zero knowledge of airspace or even ARTCC boundaries.

When I started on VATSIM back in 2011, I never heard of VATSpy or Vattastic and I hadn't even started my real world flight training yet so I was the stereotypical noob. I remember calling Jacksonville Center sitting on the ground in Atlanta to ask if I needed to contact him. I had no idea how to tell or where to go to find that information. I've experienced that from pilots countless times while controlling Boston Center so how can we expect everyone to know when they're in you're airspace. If you let someone skirt your airspace and wanna complain that they haven't contacted you, consider that maybe they honestly not know that they're in your airspace.

Now obviously this is a case-by-case issue, but don't be quick to push the blame on the pilot all the time. I personally will let certain aircraft go who will only be in my airspace for less than 50 miles and I'll use the same number before I start sending contact requests unless I expect there to be a conflict in which I'll initiate that process earlier.
Title: Re: How/Why/When of Initial Contact w/ ATC (A look at COC)
Post by: Don Desfosse on March 16, 2017, 12:08:55 AM
Just to clarify...  It is indeed the pilot's responsibility...  And solely the pilot's responsibility.  That said, and I think what folks are portraying here, most controllers like to reach out to play nice in the sandbox.  Nice in the sandbox is good.  Mark and Chris and others in this thread that are looking out for the best interests of all, including teaching the pilots, are definitely on the right track. 

But I still hate the .contactme.  It's a crutch.

I've said it a million times before.  I'm not a fan of the .contactme.  It is unrealistic.  Another pilot responsibility is to be monitoring unicom at all times when in uncontrolled airspace.  So assuming a pilot doesn't realize he entered controlled airspace, that's the way I reach out.  It emulates a controller reaching out to a pilot on guard (121.5) which happens all day long RW.  When I log on and see that there are people in my airspace that may not be aware that I just logged on, is send a text message on unicom that says something to the effect of: "XXX_CTR is now online, 1xx.xxx" This gets, on average, about 65% of the pilots out there who are dutifully monitoring unicom to call me.

The others, I generally send another message, on unicom, directed at their callsign, that says Contact XXX_CTR on 1xx.xxx For those controllers/Facility Engineers that choose to add it to their facility's standard alias file, it could look like
.cme Contact $callsign on $com1

I use the .contactme as a last resort. It it the least realistic (the hailing attempts on unicom mirror what the RW would do on guard), but sends a clear message. By the time I've sent the third request for contact, the pilot has now neglected their responsibility to monitor for online ATC and contact ATC for a decent number of minutes (I usually don't send .contactme messages for at least 15 minutes, unless there is a traffic conflict brewing) (and their situational awareness tools (e.g. VATSpy, Servinfo, etc.) should have updated, showing online ATC), and have also neglected their responsibility to monitor unicom. In my estimation (because I stopped collecting hard data months ago), when I've been online for 15+ minutes and start to send the .contactme messages, 80+% of pilots aren't paying attention, and fewer than 20% are newbie-ish that need some assistance/reassurance.

I would wager that the vast majority of controllers on VATSIM just rely on the .contactme crutch right out of the chute, most likely because that's the way they were taught. That's also likely why we hear a lot of pilots say, "Oh, I was just waiting for the .contactme message; everyone else does that...."  That's true in Europe.  I hope to hell we are not training our controllers to use the .contactme message as a crutch, but as a last resort.  Please stop propagating anything along the lines of "if a pilot wanders into your controlled airspace, immediately send a .contactme" or "pilots should wait for a .contactme". It is the pilot's responsibility to contact ATC, not ATC's responsibility to contact the pilots (reference the VATSIM Code of Conduct, section B3). Much has been written about this over the years, with the main argument that pilots have only one controller to contact, while controllers may be working several, indeed a lot of, aircraft, working multiple approaches and terminal operations at multiple airports. 

Stop feeding the pilots fish; teach them how to fish!  Just please do it in a kind, helpful and respectful manner.  Otherwise, we'll have a different problem on our hands.

Too harsh and we lose people. Too loose and we lose people. That sweet spot in the middle where everyone gets better/smarter and has more fun is a tough place to find, but a great place to be. Let's all look for that sweet spot that maximizes the enjoyment of the network for everyone....
Title: Re: How/Why/When of Initial Contact w/ ATC (A look at COC)
Post by: Toby Rice on March 16, 2017, 08:14:35 AM
I like your point about UNICOM, Don.  I'll have to try that.

Good post!
Title: Re: How/Why/When of Initial Contact w/ ATC (A look at COC)
Post by: Alex Ying on March 16, 2017, 01:36:58 PM
What's the best / canonical way to send text messages on 122.8 from VRC? I haven't really been able to find documentation on it. Does it work to set it in the comms panel without any voice server or channel info?
Title: Re: How/Why/When of Initial Contact w/ ATC (A look at COC)
Post by: Don Desfosse on March 16, 2017, 02:58:52 PM
What I do is set it up in the comms panel, use the facility's standard voice server, and use UNICOM for my voice channel.  If your facility specifies how to do it, you should follow that.  If not, you're pretty much on your own.  Feel free to adopt my method if you like. 

Just do not prime up on unicom, please!  (that introduces a bunch of "interesting" things, especially for people using XSB)  And transmit text only on unicom, please.
Title: Re: How/Why/When of Initial Contact w/ ATC (A look at COC)
Post by: Daniel Hawton on March 16, 2017, 03:05:34 PM
What's the best / canonical way to send text messages on 122.8 from VRC? I haven't really been able to find documentation on it. Does it work to set it in the comms panel without any voice server or channel info?

Easy way is to go to your comms panel, select an empty frequency row, enter a label (I use "UNICOM") and set frequency to 122.800.  Then click "Save Changes".  Then select the TX and RX checkboxes next to it and type in the text box.  You'll transmit on both UNICOM and your prim'd frequency, but that's okay.  If you don't want to transmit on your frequency temporarily, just uncheck the TX box for your frequency (leave PRIM and RX checked as well as HDST/SPKR as appropriate), send your xxx position open on 123.45 message, then recheck TX.  After you're done transmitting on UNICOM, uncheck TX and RX and you're set.
Title: Re: How/Why/When of Initial Contact w/ ATC (A look at COC)
Post by: Johnathan Ellis on March 16, 2017, 04:46:26 PM
Just to clarify...  It is indeed the pilot's responsibility...  And solely the pilot's responsibility.  That said, and I think what folks are portraying here, most controllers like to reach out to play nice in the sandbox.  Nice in the sandbox is good.  Mark and Chris and others in this thread that are looking out for the best interests of all, including teaching the pilots, are definitely on the right track. 

But I still hate the .contactme.  It's a crutch.

I've said it a million times before.  I'm not a fan of the .contactme.  It is unrealistic.  Another pilot responsibility is to be monitoring unicom at all times when in uncontrolled airspace.  So assuming a pilot doesn't realize he entered controlled airspace, that's the way I reach out.  It emulates a controller reaching out to a pilot on guard (121.5) which happens all day long RW.  When I log on and see that there are people in my airspace that may not be aware that I just logged on, is send a text message on unicom that says something to the effect of: "XXX_CTR is now online, 1xx.xxx" This gets, on average, about 65% of the pilots out there who are dutifully monitoring unicom to call me.

The others, I generally send another message, on unicom, directed at their callsign, that says Contact XXX_CTR on 1xx.xxx For those controllers/Facility Engineers that choose to add it to their facility's standard alias file, it could look like
.cme Contact $callsign on $com1

I use the .contactme as a last resort. It it the least realistic (the hailing attempts on unicom mirror what the RW would do on guard), but sends a clear message. By the time I've sent the third request for contact, the pilot has now neglected their responsibility to monitor for online ATC and contact ATC for a decent number of minutes (I usually don't send .contactme messages for at least 15 minutes, unless there is a traffic conflict brewing) (and their situational awareness tools (e.g. VATSpy, Servinfo, etc.) should have updated, showing online ATC), and have also neglected their responsibility to monitor unicom. In my estimation (because I stopped collecting hard data months ago), when I've been online for 15+ minutes and start to send the .contactme messages, 80+% of pilots aren't paying attention, and fewer than 20% are newbie-ish that need some assistance/reassurance.

I would wager that the vast majority of controllers on VATSIM just rely on the .contactme crutch right out of the chute, most likely because that's the way they were taught. That's also likely why we hear a lot of pilots say, "Oh, I was just waiting for the .contactme message; everyone else does that...."  That's true in Europe.  I hope to hell we are not training our controllers to use the .contactme message as a crutch, but as a last resort.  Please stop propagating anything along the lines of "if a pilot wanders into your controlled airspace, immediately send a .contactme" or "pilots should wait for a .contactme". It is the pilot's responsibility to contact ATC, not ATC's responsibility to contact the pilots (reference the VATSIM Code of Conduct, section B3). Much has been written about this over the years, with the main argument that pilots have only one controller to contact, while controllers may be working several, indeed a lot of, aircraft, working multiple approaches and terminal operations at multiple airports. 

Stop feeding the pilots fish; teach them how to fish!  Just please do it in a kind, helpful and respectful manner.  Otherwise, we'll have a different problem on our hands.

Too harsh and we lose people. Too loose and we lose people. That sweet spot in the middle where everyone gets better/smarter and has more fun is a tough place to find, but a great place to be. Let's all look for that sweet spot that maximizes the enjoyment of the network for everyone....

I have would have to agree 100%. I personally feel the same about the ".contactme" feature, and have never been a supporter of it. I never send them out. If a pilot passes from my airspace to a fellow Controller's.....I will let the Controller know the situation, and go from there.
Title: Re: How/Why/When of Initial Contact w/ ATC (A look at COC)
Post by: Don Desfosse on March 16, 2017, 05:00:54 PM
While Daniel is correct, I'll admit that I never found it worth the time/effort to deselect my primary frequency tx...  No biggie to me if my pilots see me ask someone to contact me on my frequency.  In the RW, it's the same transmission they'd be hearing if they were "good pilots" and monitoring the guard frequency in one of their other COM radios..... ;)
Title: Re: How/Why/When of Initial Contact w/ ATC (A look at COC)
Post by: Don Desfosse on March 16, 2017, 05:11:43 PM
I like your point about UNICOM, Don.  I'll have to try that.

Thanks.  We're all about continuous improvement, so if people do start trying the unicom (simulating guard) method, please let us know how you make out.

I'm still a firm believer in teaching the pilots to fish....  (Give a VATSIM pilot a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a VATSIM pilot to fish and you feed him for a lifetime ;) )
Title: Re: How/Why/When of Initial Contact w/ ATC (A look at COC)
Post by: Ryan Parry on March 17, 2017, 10:43:10 AM
On an unrelated note, I wonder how many (if any) "average joe" pilots around the network are reading this thread. The question isn't what does the COC say, it's why don't many pilots know that they are supposed to be aware of the rules. What's the point of spending all that time writing rules if nobody is going to be required to follow them?

I've always been of the opinion new members should have to pass an exam on the PRC material and at the end of that exam it should advertise the various ATO's and encourage them to seek out Pilot ratings. I believe it would really help this network in both pilot quality and general knowledge of the rules etc. 
Title: Re: How/Why/When of Initial Contact w/ ATC (A look at COC)
Post by: Brin Brody on March 17, 2017, 01:09:49 PM
While Daniel is correct, I'll admit that I never found it worth the time/effort to deselect my primary frequency tx...  No biggie to me if my pilots see me ask someone to contact me on my frequency.  In the RW, it's the same transmission they'd be hearing if they were "good pilots" and monitoring the guard frequency in one of their other COM radios..... ;)

I do it all the time... Unfortunately with not too great response rates.  I'd say around 1/4 pilots are on frequency when I do the call, unfortunately leading to the .contactme command.  It's the unfortunate truth of VATSIM; we don't require pilots to be certified to fly online, so we can't expect anywhere near perfection.
Title: Re: How/Why/When of Initial Contact w/ ATC (A look at COC)
Post by: Joe VanMeter on March 17, 2017, 09:32:05 PM
On an unrelated note, I wonder how many (if any) "average joe" pilots around the network are reading this thread. The question isn't what does the COC say, it's why don't many pilots know that they are supposed to be aware of the rules. What's the point of spending all that time writing rules if nobody is going to be required to follow them?

I've always been of the opinion new members should have to pass an exam on the PRC material and at the end of that exam it should advertise the various ATO's and encourage them to seek out Pilot ratings. I believe it would really help this network in both pilot quality and general knowledge of the rules etc.

I have been following this thread and I have to agree with Ryan that new pilots should have some sort of exam to be able to fly on the network. Last time I checked wasn't the P1 rating just a test based on the PRC and was administered through vatsim? If this was the cause maybe we could require pilots to have a P1 rating to fly and give them options to pursue furthing ratings if they choose to?
Title: Re: How/Why/When of Initial Contact w/ ATC (A look at COC)
Post by: Don Desfosse on March 18, 2017, 07:55:30 AM
Mandatory P1 training or pilot certification is something that would have to be approved by the VATSIM Board of Governors, and there's an active discussion on the topic on the VATSIM forums (and many dozens of inactive ones too).  Discussing it here isn't going to change anything.
Title: Re: How/Why/When of Initial Contact w/ ATC (A look at COC)
Post by: Don Desfosse on March 18, 2017, 07:59:03 AM
While Daniel is correct, I'll admit that I never found it worth the time/effort to deselect my primary frequency tx...  No biggie to me if my pilots see me ask someone to contact me on my frequency.  In the RW, it's the same transmission they'd be hearing if they were "good pilots" and monitoring the guard frequency in one of their other COM radios..... ;)

I do it all the time... Unfortunately with not too great response rates.  I'd say around 1/4 pilots are on frequency when I do the call, unfortunately leading to the .contactme command.
When you say you "do it", do you mean attempt to hail pilots on your frequency, on unicom, or both?  If you mean your frequency, that's why I was suggesting unicom.  If your pilots don't respond to you on unicom, then the pilots are in violation of BOTH sections B3 and B7 of the Code of Conduct, and you are entirely within your right to contact a Supervisor (and/or use the .contactme crutch).  Whether you choose to do that or not is up to your facility policies and/or personal preference.
Title: Re: How/Why/When of Initial Contact w/ ATC (A look at COC)
Post by: Shane VanHoven on March 22, 2017, 11:28:30 AM
Mandatory P1 training or pilot certification is something that would have to be approved by the VATSIM Board of Governors, and there's an active discussion on the topic on the VATSIM forums (and many dozens of inactive ones too).  Discussing it here isn't going to change anything.

Let's be honest, discussing it there isn't going to change anything, either. ;)
Title: Re: How/Why/When of Initial Contact w/ ATC (A look at COC)
Post by: Brin Brody on March 23, 2017, 10:23:07 AM
While Daniel is correct, I'll admit that I never found it worth the time/effort to deselect my primary frequency tx...  No biggie to me if my pilots see me ask someone to contact me on my frequency.  In the RW, it's the same transmission they'd be hearing if they were "good pilots" and monitoring the guard frequency in one of their other COM radios..... ;)

I do it all the time... Unfortunately with not too great response rates.  I'd say around 1/4 pilots are on frequency when I do the call, unfortunately leading to the .contactme command.
When you say you "do it", do you mean attempt to hail pilots on your frequency, on unicom, or both?  If you mean your frequency, that's why I was suggesting unicom.  If your pilots don't respond to you on unicom, then the pilots are in violation of BOTH sections B3 and B7 of the Code of Conduct, and you are entirely within your right to contact a Supervisor (and/or use the .contactme crutch).  Whether you choose to do that or not is up to your facility policies and/or personal preference.

My steps:

Isn't ATC participation on UNICOM against the CoC or is that something I've messed up?
Title: Re: How/Why/When of Initial Contact w/ ATC (A look at COC)
Post by: Don Desfosse on March 23, 2017, 11:21:14 AM
It's not against any section of the CoC.
Title: Re: How/Why/When of Initial Contact w/ ATC (A look at COC)
Post by: Brin Brody on March 24, 2017, 08:29:44 PM
It's not against any section of the CoC.

Thanks.  This opens a door for contact I hadn't thought was possible...  :D