VATUSA Forums
General => The Control Room Floor => Topic started by: Chris McGee on January 14, 2010, 01:31:08 PM
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The FAA could soon implement a changeover from "position and hold" to "line up and wait," to conform with international phraseology standards, NBAA said this week. If approved later this month, the new terminology could be implemented as soon as this June. It's long overdue, according to NTSB Chairman Deborah Hersman. She said the NTSB issued six recommendations in July 2000, asking the FAA to change various ATC procedures to reduce the risks of runway operations. "In response, we were recently advised that the FAA soon plans to adopt a single change: the use of "line up and wait" instead of "position and hold" to instruct pilots to enter a runway and wait for takeoff clearance," Hersman said at a runway safety summit in Washington last month. "We needed to wait nine years for that?" Bob Lamond, of NBAA, told AVweb on Tuesday he doesn't expect too much distress over the change. "Folks are going to stumble over it at first, but we'll get used to it," he said. "It's been talked about for years, so it's really a non-issue for us."
However, implementation will require an "extensive awareness campaign" to ensure that pilots and controllers are informed, NBAA said. FAA Administrator Randy Babbitt, speaking at the safety summit last month, said the FAA has done a lot to address runway safety concerns. "The numbers prove we've made a dramatic improvement," he said, nothing that in the past year there were just 12 incursions out of more than 50 million operations, and only two of those involved commercial carriers. "We've revamped our on-line courses. We've produced public service spots. And we mailed a half-million runway safety DVDs and brochures to pilots," said Babbitt. "It's been a tremendous joint effort across all parts of the FAA and the aviation industry. It worked." He added, however, that there is still work to be done in the GA community. "We can make every protection possible, but the human in the loop is the challenge of the future," he said.
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What's the source of this article?
Does "line up and wait" really work better than the ages-old "position and hold?" Is there NTSB data to show that?
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http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/Posit...tml?CMP=OTC-RSS (http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/PositionAndHoldChangeExpectedSoon_201830-1.html?CMP=OTC-RSS)
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What's the source of this article?
Does "line up and wait" really work better than the ages-old "position and hold?" Is there NTSB data to show that?
I guess it's more to align with everywhere else in the world (ICAO phraseology)...
Although I don't exactly see how pilots from countries which use the slightly more complicated multiple aircraft conditional line up clearances (something like "on taxiway Alpha1, behind the heavy Airbus 330 on short final, line up" which would be in front of another plane also holding in position) could get into a runway incursion simply misunderstanding "position and hold". I must admit, p/h does sound cooler, lol...
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I guess it's more to align with everywhere else in the world (ICAO phraseology)...
Although I don't exactly see how pilots from countries which use the slightly more complicated multiple aircraft conditional line up clearances (something like "on taxiway Alpha1, behind the heavy Airbus 330 on short final, line up" which would be in front of another plane also holding in position) could get into a runway incursion simply misunderstanding "position and hold". I must admit, p/h does sound cooler, lol...
I don't see them going full ICAO on this, as the FAA doesn't want to deal with any more ambiguity than they have to. Line up and wait, I can go either way. But the 'behind/after the xxx, line up' isn't going to cut it, especially if parallel approaches are in effect.
BL.
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I don't see them going full ICAO on this, as the FAA doesn't want to deal with any more ambiguity than they have to. Line up and wait, I can go either way. But the 'behind/after the xxx, line up' isn't going to cut it, especially if parallel approaches are in effect.
BL.
Yeah that's not exactly what I meant, I do agree with you. I was just kinda saying I didn't see how pilots who are used to all that ICAO and conditional stuff could be confused by simply saying "position and hold" vs "line up and wait".
Cheers
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Yeah that's not exactly what I meant, I do agree with you. I was just kinda saying I didn't see how pilots who are used to all that ICAO and conditional stuff could be confused by simply saying "position and hold" vs "line up and wait".
Cheers
I have a insider at the FAA and that is a BIG rumor!
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At my ATCT/Radar facility, we received this email months ago. Word is from our FAA Liaison that this change won't be expected soon as it's been looked at for 9 to 10 years now, and is still "being looked at and considered" and "tested to ensure pilot and ATC acceptance". If we see it, it won't be for a few years.
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At my ATCT/Radar facility, we received this email months ago. Word is from our FAA Liaison that this change won't be expected soon as it's been looked at for 9 to 10 years now, and is still "being looked at and considered" and "tested to ensure pilot and ATC acceptance". If we see it, it won't be for a few years.
Where do you work at? We were told it was happening in June/July time frame.
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Official word is that the use of ICAO TIPH terminology is to commence on September 30th.
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That official word hasn't shown up in the form on an FAA Notice.. so I'll hold my breath on that one. Simple google searches show the FAA had a prior target date of no later than June 30, 2008. We all know government bureaucracy and how swiftly it moves.
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I agree a notice would be the final word, but by official I mean that it was presented by the FAA at the April S2K Customer Focus Group Meeting at the Command Center and was given out in writing.
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The "Position and Hold" saying is the most comfortable thing for controllers to say in my opinion, but "Line up and wait" kind of does not sound right nor professional.
Position and hold is stating get on the runway and dont move, where as lie up and wait could me line up on the runway, you can go as far down the runway as you want so you are lined up.
I think line up and wait is a stupid idea.
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The thing about radio phraseology is that it's very keyword (proword) based. Prowords best when you have a small dictionary and very set reactions associated with each proword.
"Hold" as in "Hold short" "land and hold short" "holding pattern" are already well-established concepts that use a very consistent definition. "Position and hold" is likewise consistent with the other uses of the word "hold." It would be unnecessarily expanding the dictionary to describe a very "hold-like" concept to use "wait" as the keyword. Unless it is their express intent to differentiate the "line up and wait" command from the "hold short runway X-Y" command, as in, there has been a problem with those being mixed up, then it is a poor idea to dilute the proword dictionary.
If you're really going to go through all the effort to change something in aviation, do it because it's a good idea in its own right, not because "those guys do it over there."