Rapid Descent Not Necessary

[Hugh Byrd]

Lately I have been subjected to unnecessary Rapid descents at airports that in my thinking aren't certified for that type of landing.

To be specific tonight I flew from KMCY to KFLL IFR via R-nav until I arrived at swags and received notification to contact KMIA APP.  I contacted KMIA APP and received instructions that were given to me so fast that I couldn't understand what was said.  

This created a communication mess between me and a lot of other pilots.  Finally when I was about three nm from the end of rw 9R I had to make a rapid descent landing and that isn't how any pilot is supposed to land an airplane.  

It seemed to me the instructions were always to late and not ledge able.  This incident happened about 9:00 PM it has happened before.

I.E. Earler part of this week on 09-25-2012 I flew from KMEM to KSTL and incountered bad weather  and received the same type of Air Traffic control behavior and problems.  I believe that this is not what VATSIM is all about.  

I am a FS pilot since the 1980's when Windows 3.0 was brand new and you had to know a little about DOS system or you couldn't get your computer up and running my point in making this last statement is let whoever needs to know I didn't start flight simming just yesterday. I have about 1800 hours flight time and I do know how to fly an airplane.  

This problem needs to be addressed and taken care of ASAP, as you can tell by my posting that I am a little bit disgusted with the VATSIM ATC at this time.

Best regards
Hugh Byrd

[Colin Schoen]

Lately I have been subjected to unnecessary Rapid descents at airports that in my thinking aren't certified for that type of landing.

To be specific tonight I flew from KMCY to KFLL IFR via R-nav until I arrived at swags and received notification to contact KMIA APP.  I contacted KMIA APP and received instructions that were given to me so fast that I couldn't understand what was said.  

This created a communication mess between me and a lot of other pilots.  Finally when I was about three nm from the end of rw 9R I had to make a rapid descent landing and that isn't how any pilot is supposed to land an airplane.  

It seemed to me the instructions were always to late and not ledge able.  This incident happened about 9:00 PM it has happened before.

I.E. Earler part of this week on 09-25-2012 I flew from KMEM to KSTL and incountered bad weather  and received the same type of Air Traffic control behavior and problems.  I believe that this is not what VATSIM is all about.  

I am a FS pilot since the 1980's when Windows 3.0 was brand new and you had to know a little about DOS system or you couldn't get your computer up and running my point in making this last statement is let whoever needs to know I didn't start flight simming just yesterday. I have about 1800 hours flight time and I do know how to fly an airplane.  

This problem needs to be addressed and taken care of ASAP, as you can tell by my posting that I am a little bit disgusted with the VATSIM ATC at this time.

Best regards
Hugh Byrd

I am sorry to hear you received unsatisfactory ATC service while in VATUSA. I suggest you use the feedback forms on the ARTCC websites as well as contact the regional staff accordingly. Unfortunately this is more of a regional issue rather than a VATUSA issue.

Kind Regards,
-Colin

[Wesley Miles]

Lately I have been subjected to unnecessary Rapid descents at airports that in my thinking aren't certified for that type of landing.

To be specific tonight I flew from KMCY to KFLL IFR via R-nav until I arrived at swags and received notification to contact KMIA APP.  I contacted KMIA APP and received instructions that were given to me so fast that I couldn't understand what was said.  

This created a communication mess between me and a lot of other pilots.  Finally when I was about three nm from the end of rw 9R I had to make a rapid descent landing and that isn't how any pilot is supposed to land an airplane.  

It seemed to me the instructions were always to late and not ledge able.  This incident happened about 9:00 PM it has happened before.

I.E. Earler part of this week on 09-25-2012 I flew from KMEM to KSTL and incountered bad weather  and received the same type of Air Traffic control behavior and problems.  I believe that this is not what VATSIM is all about.  

I am a FS pilot since the 1980's when Windows 3.0 was brand new and you had to know a little about DOS system or you couldn't get your computer up and running my point in making this last statement is let whoever needs to know I didn't start flight simming just yesterday. I have about 1800 hours flight time and I do know how to fly an airplane.  

This problem needs to be addressed and taken care of ASAP, as you can tell by my posting that I am a little bit disgusted with the VATSIM ATC at this time.

Best regards
Hugh Byrd

Can you specify a little about your "steep descent" issues you have with ATC... specifics, like altitude/mileage?  I know at KSTL-- real world-- approach likes to keep the arrivals high to tunnel the departures out from under them.  When working KSTL arrivals myself, I employ this tactic all the time to simulate this.  It allows for a smooth descent (one that doesn't require you to level off until it's time to intercept the glideslope), which also saves fuel as you spend less time level at lower altitudes.  It does, however, require the FS pilot to execute instructions in a timely manner, so I usually won't do this unless I can judge whether the pilot seems to be fairly good.

If the pilot takes the instructions in a timely manner, the technique of keeping arrivals higher longer can work flawlessly (and still only require a standard descent rate).

[Ryan Geckler]

Can you specify a little about your "steep descent" issues you have with ATC... specifics, like altitude/mileage?

Agreed.

Miami/FLL is known as a "chop and drop" airspace, especially when everything is in East Ops (which is normal). You really need to be in control of your speed and use the speed brakes efficiently. You may have been going too fast (I don't know), and this made the descent impossible.

[Kenneth Bambach]

Hugh,
I'm interested if you were on a STAR into KFLL. In east ops you should have been at 8K upon entering the Tracon, while KMIA arrivals enter at 10K. Also, what type of approach were you on into KFLL? I'm guessing you were landing 9L. If so you should have been no more than 3K 10 mi out from the field  on a vis approach and 2500 on the ILS. If you were cleared for the vis approach, in normal wx, you should have been able to descend on your own from 10 mi out at 3K. Not sure why you had to descend so quickly 3 mi out. Also, 9R has been closed for several months, so you should have been assigned either 9L or 13, again if in East Ops which we have been in over the last week.  

Ken Bambach
ZMA DATM

[Stephen O'Hara]

Hugh,
I'm interested if you were on a STAR into KFLL. In east ops you should have been at 8K upon entering the Tracon, while KMIA arrivals enter at 10K. Also, what type of approach were you on into KFLL? I'm guessing you were landing 9L. If so you should have been no more than 3K 10 mi out from the field  on a vis approach and 2500 on the ILS. If you were cleared for the vis approach, in normal wx, you should have been able to descend on your own from 10 mi out at 3K. Not sure why you had to descend so quickly 3 mi out. Also, 9R has been closed for several months, so you should have been assigned either 9L or 13, again if in East Ops which we have been in over the last week.  

Ken Bambach
ZMA DATM

Filed:
09/29/12 23:50    Type:
IFR    Aircraft
B738/I    Depart:
KMSY    Arrive:
KFLL    Altn.:
KMIA    Altitude:
290    Speed:
529    Amended By:
Route:    SIMMR CUTSL JINGL 1

[Daniel Channani]

Hello,
 I was working APP that day at the Miami TRACON, i do realize you after looking up the  flight .
Let me start with this

Like Mr. Bambach mentioned the Highest you should cross into the TRACON is 8K and 250 knots .  When you reach my TRACON i put you down automatically to 2500 feet (If your higher then the crossing restrictions and not at 250 knots or below when your inside my TRACON you wont make it trust me) . And for a fact you were fast. Here are you logs from VATAWARE.

"http://www.vataware.com/flight.cfm?id=10462454"     Just check that out it shows you were too fast when descending and high when you entered the TRACON.      

Also i would never give 9R because its closed and even when it was not closed we gave it to GA pilots only.
An other thing Like Ryan mentioned ... that's just how the TRACON is made and operated.
Please do not say "We are bad controllers or ashamed how we control" because trust me, us controllers have to put up with a WAY! more .
And as you could tell i just don't like to be insulted in front of everyone on what i do correctly.

[Dylan Lundberg]

It sounds to me that Yes you may have a lot of experience flying, but How long have you been using VATSIM? And Not to be rude or anything, cause that is NOT what I am here to do, If a controller is speaking to fast, then you ask him to slow down; If a Controller is speaking in an intelligible language, or you simply didn't hear the instruction, you ask him to repeat; Lastly, if a controller is giving you late instructions, you, as Pilot In Command, should advise the controller if you need to descend at a certain point by simply letting him know on the Frequency, there are other options that you could have used. 1) Use the TEXT on the Frequency. 2) Utilize Missed approach procedures. 3) Make sure you have, and set up your descent, and speed as according to any STAR or IAP...

Blue Skies!

[Hugh Byrd]

It sounds to me that Yes you may have a lot of experience flying, but How long have you been using VATSIM? And Not to be rude or anything, cause that is NOT what I am here to do, If a controller is speaking to fast, then you ask him to slow down; If a Controller is speaking in an intelligible language, or you simply didn't hear the instruction, you ask him to repeat; Lastly, if a controller is giving you late instructions, you, as Pilot In Command, should advise the controller if you need to descend at a certain point by simply letting him know on the Frequency, there are other options that you could have used. 1) Use the TEXT on the Frequency. 2) Utilize Missed approach procedures. 3) Make sure you have, and set up your descent, and speed as according to any STAR or IAP...

Blue Skies!

I would like to thank Mr. Lundberg for his excellent advise on how to handle a situation such as the rapid descent episode that I endured at KFLL RW9L.  I never had an experience like that in the real arena of aviation.  

There are in general a lot of fantastic ATC people out there on VATSIM I can think of one that I will always remember.  His name I don't know but I know his voice and it is always a pleasure to work with him, he usually works at the JAX center .

Thanks to everyone for your thoughts and advice until a better day.

Best regards
Hugh Byrd
881864  

[Dylan Lundberg]

I would like to thank Mr. Lundberg for his excellent advise on how to handle a situation such as the rapid descent episode that I endured at KFLL RW9L.  I never had an experience like that in the real arena of aviation.  

There are in general a lot of fantastic ATC people out there on VATSIM I can think of one that I will always remember.  His name I don't know but I know his voice and it is always a pleasure to work with him, he usually works at the JAX center .

Thanks to everyone for your thoughts and advice until a better day.

Best regards
Hugh Byrd
881864

Glad it worked out in the end!

~Dylan