VATUSA Forums
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Alan Dubois on December 29, 2010, 01:17:02 PM
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I was just wondering where management is. I don't see any of them online hardly at all. Do they act like real world management, get a promotion to the front office then never seen again. Don't know, but my idea of good management is to have "presense" with those you are managing.
Just a thought.
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Alan,
I can speak for myself and several of the ATM's who are online on a semi regular basis usually as Z##_ATM etc. , some of us also work as supervisors so you may see us on as XX_SUP.
Hope that answers your questions.
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Don't know whether you are talking the ATC side, or the pilot side, as far as my VA, since being the CEO of AvA, I probably have more hours online in the air than 3/4 of my pilots, so, I'm not hiding. On the ATC side, alot of management, ATM's, and such, on up the line into Division management are like Bryan said, also Supervisors, so they may be online, but you don't see them in their "staff" position necessarily.
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I prefer to see my staff online controlling or supervising and not "observing" via our staff callsigns. Most ARTCCs are the same way, too. In terms of VATUSA, I can't speak for them, but I know they're all very active in the forums and with progress on the backend of the site. But I'm not about to go VATSIM Stats all of their CIDs....
What management are you referencing?
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More to the point Mr. DuBois: What is your need? VATSIM and VATUSA have active management staff at all levels. Is there some particular issue you're concerned with, or was your post just to get a rise?
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Tom,
Why does Mr. DuBois need to have a *need* to ask a question. He is just wondering where his VATUSA Staff is and he is just innocently asking the question that I'm sure many have thought but nobody has really asked.
And, his *Issue* is that he is trying to promote his good idea of management,
[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]but my idea of good management is to have "presense" with those you are managing.[/quote]
All he is doing is asking an innocent question.
P.S. Implying that his post was "just to get a rise" isn't the nicest way to treat someone who is quite clearly a new member to VATUSA and controlling.
Rahul
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Tom,
Why does Mr. DuBois need to have a *need* to ask a question. He is just wondering where his VATUSA Staff is and he is just innocently asking the question that I'm sure many have thought but nobody has really asked.
And, his *Issue* is that he is trying to promote his good idea of management,
All he is doing is asking an innocent question.
P.S. Implying that his post was "just to get a rise" isn't the nicest way to treat someone who is quite clearly a new member to VATUSA and controlling.
Rahul
You are kidding right?
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Bob,
Why would I be kidding... Does My post make you laugh?
Is it your thing to have a staff member imply that a newbie to VATUSA and controlling is making a post "Just to get a rise"?
Rahul
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Bob,
Why would I be kidding... Does My post make you laugh?
Is it your thing to have a staff member imply that a newbie to VATUSA and controlling is making a post "Just to get a rise"?
Rahul
There is nothing "innocent" about saying things like "Do they act like real world management, get a promotion to the front office then never seen again." or "Don't know, but my idea of good management is to have "presense" with those you are managing."
So my question still stands. You are kidding right?
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[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]More to the point Mr. DuBois: What is your need? VATSIM and VATUSA have active management staff at all levels. Is there some particular issue you're concerned with, or was your post just to get a rise?[/quote]
I think Tom's questions are innocent enough as well.
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There is nothing "innocent" about saying things like "Do they act like real world management, get a promotion to the front office then never seen again." or "Don't know, but my idea of good management is to have "presense" with those you are managing."
So my question still stands. You are kidding right?
Bob, let's be realistic here, this is exactly what VATUSA's management does, they get their promotion, then hide behind exclusive policies that protect them and harm the general membership. They have 0 presence, and 0 accountability because the VATUSA staff has this mindset that they are "untouchable" all the way to the top of the USA ranks, and then have the gall to claim that their "staff work" keeps them from being online, but hold the members to a time standard of being online. Well let's say that XYZ persons family member has to have major surgery, the injured person is off work for a month+, so now you have to work, and take care of that person, a staff member hides behind their policy, while a general member gets removed from the roster...surely these can't be inclusive policies, like the founders requested. Good management should do the work they did before, ie: controlling, and then also do their job that they got appointed to. This is a volunteer job, if they don't have the time to do what they did before AND do the job they're in now, step down and let someone else take the reins who has the time.
DL
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Tom,
Why does Mr. DuBois need to have a *need* to ask a question. He is just wondering where his VATUSA Staff is and he is just innocently asking the question that I'm sure many have thought but nobody has really asked.
And, his *Issue* is that he is trying to promote his good idea of management,
All he is doing is asking an innocent question.
P.S. Implying that his post was "just to get a rise" isn't the nicest way to treat someone who is quite clearly a new member to VATUSA and controlling.
Rahul
Come on Rahul, you have too much time on your hands this week. Mr. Dubois is hardly a newbie having been in and about VATSIM for a couple of years now and has over 250 online flying hours. He has no ATC background at all so why as a pilot would he even bother to look for a VATUSA "boss"?
My friend you should let him answer any questions directed to him himself.
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Come on Rahul, you have too much time on your hands this week. Mr. Dubois is hardly a newbie having been in and about VATSIM for a couple of years now and has over 250 online flying hours. He has no ATC background at all so why as a pilot would he even bother to look for a VATUSA "boss"?
My friend you should let him answer any questions directed to him himself.
Tom is spot on - It is a valid question to see where his management is, in the real world, we wouldn't want employees working for someone that they didn't see, know, or hear from once in awhile.
What are your needs or is it just a general question as to being visible?
@Dan - Not sure how your posting is helping the question by posting something like "This is what VATUSA management does" How does that help?
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Ira, Meh, I may have a lot of time on my hands this week, but without work, I don't have anything to do
Also, I stated he was a newbie to VATUSA and controlling having done a Quick stats check prior to saying anything outrageous.
Bob, I'm not kidding, No.
Jeff, I totally agree that it is a valid question. And agree with your point with regards to the real world.
Dan, I'm not quite sure about your point, but reading into it, I think that there is some part which relates to VATUSA management, and another part that relates to something else... But I see your opinion in that you think VATUSA Staff hide behind curtains, I'm not going to disagree or agree with this fact at the moment as I don't really have any stats to back that point up.
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Ira, Meh, I may have a lot of time on my hands this week, but without work, I don't have anything to do
Also, I stated he was a newbie to VATUSA and controlling having done a Quick stats check prior to saying anything outrageous.
My sole point was to agree with Tom and point out that you should let him speak for himself. If that did not come across clearly enough then I guess I should have chosen my words better. Anyone has the right to ask questions but I too must admit to little bit of curiosity after seeing the words he chose.
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Ira,
If I missed out on that being your main point, I apologize... He does pose a good question, and even I had some curiosity so you're not alone
Rahul
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Tom is spot on - It is a valid question to see where his management is, in the real world, we wouldn't want employees working for someone that they didn't see, know, or hear from once in awhile.
What are your needs or is it just a general question as to being visible?
@Dan - Not sure how your posting is helping the question by posting something like "This is what VATUSA management does" How does that help?
Jeff, I am simply trying to help a member find an answer to his question. Whether his question is valid or not, is a completely different thing. I am simply telling what I have observed in my 2 years on VATSIM. Not necessarily whether I'm right or wrong with these views, whether they're "valid" observations or not, is up to each individual. Just putting in what I've seen over the past 2 years of VATSIM. Additionally, I've only been at 1 ARTCC, and have seen 3 DD's. So my view may be narrow, and not apply to everyone, but from what I've observed and experienced is what I use when I write.
DL
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VATSIM is a game go control and fly. If you want to be management go get a job so you can get paid.
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I can put this rather simply. Aside the private agendas and undertones of animosity (from heaven knows what sources), I can assure everyone that VATUSA management is doing their damn job. We may not be doing it the way YOU want or desire it be done but it is being done the way I deem is in the best interest of the Division.
Is it perfect? No.
Will it be perfect? No.
Will it make everyone happy? No.
But then again gentlemen, THIS IS A HOBBY....those of you who feel the need to speak with such indignant voices, try email; forum baiting has never proven an effective m/o.
(BTW, here's a lightning bolt for those who bring up mandatory hours and roster removals, etc...neither I nor the Division set any minimal hourly requirements for anyone. You set those yourselves - suggest you either revise them or get over it.)
On that note, I hope everyone has a great New Year.
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WOW.... oooh saaaa people. I took Alan's question as a simple one, which I tried to answer, without pointing any fingers I might add.
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OK, some interesting responses.
Bryan and Scott, thanks for your honest answers, didn't think of that.
Rahul, thanks for seeing that my question(s) are genuine.
Tom, not sure what you're deal is, accusing me of anything is/was out of line. I was simply asking a question because even though I don't control (for a reason), I do frequent both this and the VATSIM forums, and try to keep a feel of the network. I just don't see some of the people that move up in the ranks around to "manage" their people, which makes no sense to me. I'll explain. VATSIM as I see it, is a network for people to come online and enjoy the hobby of either flying, or controlling, or both, online in a network where there is interaction with others, so if you are not going to fly, or control, what is the purpose of being here, kind of defeats the purpose.
Jeff, I have/had no specific need, I was just asking a question, that I perceived as valid, because I don't see the upper management as doing anything once they are upper management. Sure, I realize that there are alot of "behind the scenes" projects and such that takes their time, but again, what's the point of being here if you're not going to fly or control?
As far as me not controlling, I have no desire to control, I fly, because that's what I enjoy doing, I belong to a VA that I enjoy, very little politics there, unlike the controlling side. I do however enjoy the interaction with ATC, THAT is why I am here. My intention here was not to "get a rise", although it appears that it has.
Gary, your post is honest, I can appreciate that, and you must be doing everything at VATUSA yourself, you've been back awhile now, but still no USA2, 3, and some other positions, I can see why you're not "online" controlling or flying that much, but is that the way it should be? Almost like "if I want it done, I'll do it myself", but hey, you are the man, and can run USA as you see fit, just makes no sense to me, how can that be enjoyable?
So there, I've spoken for myself, thanks to those who saw my question as genuine, and to those that don't, I'm thinking you need a reality check in this virtual world.
Happy New Year to all!
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Tom, not sure what you're deal is, accusing me of anything is/was out of line. I was simply asking a question because even though I don't control (for a reason), I do frequent both this and the VATSIM forums, and try to keep a feel of the network. I just don't see some of the people that move up in the ranks around to "manage" their people, which makes no sense to me. I'll explain. VATSIM as I see it, is a network for people to come online and enjoy the hobby of either flying, or controlling, or both, online in a network where there is interaction with others, so if you are not going to fly, or control, what is the purpose of being here, kind of defeats the purpose.
While that more or less expands the original question, there are some suppositions in it that don't carry much weight. And until you've had a good hard look at the responsibilities that those selected to staff what you term management positions have to deal with, to suggest that they aren't effective because they're not visible to you is a pretty big reach. A large quantity of the daily business that affects the ATM's in my region goes through me ... and in the case of some ARTCC's, it is voluminous. Bearing in mind that all these folks have real world jobs or other responsibilities, and considering the seriousness with which we conduct the selection process, we are truly fortunate to have quality candidates step up to demonstrate their willingness to take these jobs. That they aren't then as visible as you might like is inconsequential to their functions. "ATM burnout" is common in this network, and it stems in large part to the mind-numbing constant workload on those occupying the position. It is evidence of the demand placed upon them, and in and of itself refutes the perception that they must be inactive if they are not "visible".
My "deal" is respect and admiration for those who take on the responsibilities of maintaining this network and all it entails.
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Alan,
Perhaps you could talk to Scott about the duties of ATM's and the various staff since you know each other? Might shed some light on why some have to make decisions on where to spend their time.
Richard
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As long as they're doing their job, I don't see why it matters if they're on the network or not. As a DATM, the work load can be heavy, and sometimes I don't have the extra time to log onto the network. I can't even imagine the upper managements workload. I think we should back off and give them some room to breath.
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Alan,
Perhaps you could talk to Scott about the duties of ATM's and the various staff since you know each other? Might shed some light on why some have to make decisions on where to spend their time.
Richard
What are you trying to say Richard? Yes, Alan and I are friends, what's that have to do with his questions?
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What are you trying to say Richard? Yes, Alan and I are friends, what's that have to do with his questions?
Since he is strictly pilot side and you do both. Thought it might be reasonable for you to explain what an ATM does on a day to day basis to give him a better insight as to what is going on.
Am I totally out of mind here?
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And until you've had a good hard look at the responsibilities that those selected to staff what you term management positions have to deal with, to suggest that they aren't effective because they're not visible to you is a pretty big reach. A large quantity of the daily business that affects the ATM's in my region goes through me ... and in the case of some ARTCC's, it is voluminous.
I keep hearing about the vast amount of work that the ATMs and VATUSA Divisional Managers do, but it never seems to get detailed. All that I see is "until you've been there, you can't possibly understand" descriptions of the workload. To this lay person, the procedures and areas for coordination between the different ARTCCs don't change very often. VATUSA policy doesn't change very often.
And it's puzzling to me why if we've placed such care and stock into selecting ATMs, why everything needs to go through the layer above. At my job, I and my peers report to a Senior VP who has given us a simple mandate - "agree amongst yourselves before you run it past me, or I will decide for you". He's sufficiently unpredictable to all of us that we are very reluctant to dig our heels in and let the decision go upstairs. We're capable of doing this in a well-known enterprise where we each have seven figure budgets. I can't imagine it's anywhere nearly as hard in VATUSA.
I'm amazed at my job the amounts of effort that people will expend on inefficient, inconsequential tasks to the detriment of what they should be focusing on. I'll have software developers spend hours dealing with an inefficient and frankly stupid build and test cycle, so much that it takes away from hours they should be spending writing good code (or with their families). Having seen a volunteer organization as large or larger than VATUSA with fewer layers of hierarhcy for about a decade now, I remain suspicious of how valid and necessary all the work and procedures are.
[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]"ATM burnout" is common in this network, and it stems in large part to the mind-numbing constant workload on those occupying the position.[/quote]
Which clearly calls for a ground-up revisitation on just what these ATMs are doing, how necessary it truly is, and whether its consequences are worth it.
Cheers!
Luke
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Since he is strictly pilot side and you do both. Thought it might be reasonable for you to explain what an ATM does on a day to day basis to give him a better insight as to what is going on.
Am I totally out of mind here?
I've told him my opinions, however, he has a mind of his own, we are friends but don't see eye to eye on alot of issues.....so, while I've never been an ATM, I have been a Deputy Director of a new Division and the co-founder, but I always found time to both control and fly and as a matter of fact, used my time flying to perform my duties as Deputy Director of VATSIM Thailand, just seemed like a good use of my time during those long hauls to work on Division "stuff". That may be why he asked what he asked.
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David,
Very, very, well put!
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I disagree. Lead by example is my motto. You cannot ask people to control more when you don't control. You cannot remove people for inactivity when you don't meet or barely meet the minimum online time yourself. This network has become an RPG from an aspect. People are making "careers" (usually the kids but sometimes even the older people which is SAD) making a nice collection of signature lines and titles about committees, sub-committees, think-tanks, organizations, sub organizations etc. Title chasers. SAD. A couple of years ago I had a kid admitting "I'm not into controlling or flying. I'm more of an administrative guy". Really? What I keep saying to everybody is that the order of priority when it comes to ATC is Control then Instruct then be an administrator. If you cannot do it, you don't have the time to commit, then step down. I'm 40 yrs old so I may see some things slightly different than the new generations (I'm not that old, but whatever). But let me assure you of this. VATSIM, VATSIM titles, staff positions etc are not something you can actually use in any kind of CV. Behaviors like that take the fun out of the hobby. Don't do it.
Disclaimer: I'm kind out of topic
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I wasn't referring to tha VATUSA staff but to the ARTCC level. That's why I said that "probably I'm out of topic". I should clarify this but when I did the post, I thought it was obvious. From what I know, at least VATUSA1, is not allowed or is not willing to be an active member in an ARTCC. I think the same should be the case for all the VATUSA positions that are involved in the decision making group of the division but that's another story. So obviously I don't consider as controllers the VATUSA staff. My bad for not clarifying this.
It appears that another can of worms has been opened though. I belong to the minority of people who don't actually share all this agony about the vacant positions of VATUSA2,3,n,n+1 under the current administration. I don't know what most of those positions mean or what's their job description and to be honest I feel no urge to find it out. As long as the vatusa world keeps spinning and as long as I don't see any bad effect in the daily operations of my ARTCC, I don't really care. Which makes me wonder about the necessity for the majority of those positions when they were filled.
That's why I have a feeling that most of those positions are simply one more addition to somebody's signature. What's the loss though? Well if you think about it, the division, in some cases only, loses a good controller. No big deal right? I absolutely agree, as long as the individual doesn't feel the need to prove that his new fancy title/signature has the importance that he wants it to have. Because that's where the said individual starts micromanaging. I do have examples, where the bureaucratic structure of vatsim/vatusa has negatively affected the daily ops of my ARTCC. So the question remains. How many of those VATUSAx positions we need to run a division taking into consideration the ARTCC staff member numbers?
Btw, since I mentioned the signatures thing. I'm a professional in the aviation industry and I've never seen so many abbreviations and acronyms in my job as I've seen in VATSIM. The other night I was googling some of the abbreviations I see in a lot of the staff signatures trying to figure out what they represent. I mean... Really?
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Should staff members at higher levels be held to a different standard than staff members at lower levels? It's been made clear that the BOG and such have been researching and taking action against ARTCC level staff who don't respond expediently to training requests and such. What about when senior staff don't respond to emails, update documents or drop the ball?
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The entire VATUSA staff consists of a Director, a Comms guy, an Events guy, and three ATDs. Two are missing: USA2 and Training. Others are handling those duties.
How many of us should resign and walk away to satisfy the concept that staff members are merely title seekers? I mean seriously ... how many of us? And when you've answered that, ask Gary how long he will remain with no support staff.
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I did a fast research. A few years ago VATUSA had 14 staff members. At some point the positions were reduced to 12. Out of those 12 only 8 are now covered. The question still stands. Ain't it weird that the Division runs with no problem at all with 2/3s of the previous scheme? Doesn't this prove that 1/3 of the positions were obsolete and they were serving as a retirement beach house with a nice view to a fancy title? I'm not looking at specific positions. I'm looking at the required manpower to run the place. I don't know what each of the staff members do. I'm just looking at the numbers. Which brings me to another question. This is happening to VATUSA only or we could extend it , keeping the analogy, to other Divisions, Regions etc?
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In the ARTCCs that do have a solid administrative force, communication with VATUSA ATDs, conflict resolution, and Gary doesn't happen on a very regular occurrence. I think this might contribute to the idea of "What goes on up there?" This is not, however, any reason to suggest that the position is worthless. Based on my experience with transfers who are not being provided adequate training, I can tell you that there is a need for certain enforcement actions on those facilities. That, in my opinion, is the responsibility of the ATDs, and it is a very valid role they must play. But again, going back to the thinking of "Well, I hardly talk to my ATD," this is where some wonder how heavy of a workload that might be. I have no idea more correct than anyone else's; we don't know.
I see VATUSA as an organization that helps the ARTCCs. I don't really see ARTCCs having many problems with that administration. I have a whole different spiel on this topic when it comes to other levels, which is beside the point of this thread (as I can infer from the OP) so I'll leave it out.
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... they were serving as a retirement beach house with a nice view to a fancy title?
This is just beyond absurd. If VATUSA staff was drawing paychecks or getting ANY OTHER form of compensation, then maybe it would be worth exploring further. But I think it was you yourself who mentioned that so-called fancy titles in this environment cannot go on a CV or resume ... with that in mind, what earthly value is any position here other than to provide administrative services to keep the community functioning? There is positively no benefit to serving as a VATUSA staff member, and in fact it really just means more time committed to the network and less for other things.
The point about less personnel accomplishing the work now simply indicates that fewer are doing the work where others did before. Did we not need a director of training? Did we not need a USA2? I don't have the answers, but I can tell you that their absence simply means more work for others to do, again with zero compensation of any sort. Honestly if you cannot accept David's well thought out post explaining in significant detail why he feels it is appropriate to give back to the community, then you should go forth with your own belief that we're all doing this for some sort of need for prestige, or whatever. It's really gratifying to know that all the effort is appreciated. "I don't know what each of the staff members do." Well then, that must mean they're not doing anything, I guess.
And by the way, VATUSA staff members are not members of any ARTCC. During their quest for fancy titles and opportunities to sit on the porch, they are removed from ARTCCs and are simply HQ Staff.
Please see heavily coveted fancy title below .....
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I don't think that the relatively recent downsizing of the VATUSA staff proves anything in particular. Was VATUSA overstaffed before? I don't know, I wasn't there at the time. When I got hired, a bunch of people left, and we were left to run the place with the people we had. The workload on each of the staff members increased for a bit, and perhaps in the future the workload might be decreased again by hiring more people to help out - I don't know. But things change, and different circumstances bring different results.
That may be true, but if different circumstances (fewer staff) bring the same results, the most logical conclusion is that you didn't need so many staff to begin with. It doesn't require multiple advanced degrees to come to this conclusion.
[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]And to answer your question Bruce, I don't know what happens when VATUSA staff drop the ball because I haven't seen it happen while I've been here.[/quote]
Despite the staff downsizing. QED, I think.
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It's really gratifying to know that all the effort is appreciated. "I don't know what each of the staff members do." Well then, that must mean they're not doing anything, I guess.
I keep asking what an ATD actually does, and I never get a good answer. I asked earlier in the thread, and the silence was deafening. I'm still interested in hearing one, though.
Cheers!
Luke
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Channeling all of those ideas, and helping the ARTCC staff members to achieve their visions, and making sure they are within the guidelines of the Division and VATSIM itself is my role now.
That's nice, and worth what John Nance Garner attributed to his penultimate office.
[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]That is, not to mention dealing with individual controllers that have issues (the details of which one will never see on a forum post), dealing with all of the promotions, staff changes, and for lack of a better term - revolts (small and large) that arise within my Region.[/quote]
If you have so many controller issues and revolts within your Division that it requires an ATD for every 4 or so ARTCCs, then the average VATSIM controller is a melodramatic idiot or there's a serious problem going on which deserves major turnover. (But since everyone keeps saying that our ATMs are so eminently qualified for their jobs, I'll claim the former.) Either way, if there's that much work to be done, there's a bigger problem at hand.
[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]I do, however, infer from your post that you must believe that ATDs, and VATUSA staff in general, do nothing at all. And in case I have not made this painfully obvious in my posts above, I find that implication insulting.[/quote]
I don't claim that you do nothing at all. But to be candid I do believe that you overstate the requirements of your job, and if you find that insulting - welcome to America. Everyone seems to be insulted about something or other. Let me insult you further, if you don't mind. I have a VP of Operations that does something similar to VATUSA1 - he has about a dozen ATM-equivalents, with no more than two assistants each, which rolls down to 2,200 members who log more time, take more exams, etc. than all of VATUSA. (I don't think you guys have 2,000 active controllers, but I could be wrong.) He has no intermediate layer equivalent to VATUSA's ATDs, and yet everything seems to work well?
Why is that? That's my frame of reference coming into this discussion - I see volunteer organizations that can operate effectively at much larger scales than VATUSA. So let's not get insulted, let's find out why that is.
Cheers!
Luke
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Consider the possibility (just a possibility) that the current leadership has a more efficient use of their staff than previous administrations. A less efficient leadership may require more personnel to achieve the same goal, and if we encounter that in the future, I should hope that raising the staffing levels to achieve the GOAL is the priority, and not to keep the roster in check due to some ill-founded "limit" on the number of staff members allowed.
If a new leadership requires more people to do the same task, then perhaps they're not the right people for the job?
If I became VATUSA1 and decided I needed 25 people to function effectively, would that be OK? How about 100? 500? Clearly you realize that there's some absolute numbers that make sense (and others that don't), rather than applying a nebulous form of relevance that prevents us from making any sort of claims whether VATUSA is under- or over-staffed.
Management in the real world is all about making decisions and judgment calls about how many people are adequate for a team and working within that framework. And there are always external parties who are more than willing to make that call for you if you come back with nebulous claims about how it's impossible to come up with a concrete number. They are very helpful that way!
Cheers!
Luke
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So I answered your question, and you responded with not accidental, but intentional insults. Along with a stinging (albeit funny) prod at my answer.
To be entirely candid, I think your answer was rather vaporous. To describe your role as helping others "achieve their visions" says next to nothing, and if the ATMs are experienced and familiar with Division policies (and I expect they are) then I'm not sure how much is required on that front.
Again, I don't mean to deliberately insult you, only to tweak you a little that you pull out the insult card and ask you the same question as I'd ask you if I was interviewing you for a job and you had this on your resume - so what did you actually do? I'm still trying to find out what the ATDs do that is so critical to VATUSA.
[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]Regardless, I wouldn't mind discussing all of these details one at a time if I had the impression that you respected my opinions and input as well, but I don't get that impression.[/quote]
I do respect your opinions, but let me add a caveat. You're in a bureaucratic position defending its existence, and that always requires taking with a grain of salt. There's likely no malice involved, but people who have come up in a particular system accept its structure and are more willing to defend it.
[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]Additionally, I am still unclear as to what the goals of these comments are. Is it to say that VATUSA is inefficient? Is that it? If that's it, then I will do my part to reverse this trend by getting off the forums, as my participation in them over the past two days has been nothing short of a complete waste of time.[/quote]
Yes. There's folks questioning how many staff VATUSA truly needs (and probably VATSIM in general). I don't think getting off the forums will do anything. Why do you think it will - the conjecture is that you could spend 100% of your time on the forums, or Facebook or watching Oprah and life would continue. It's nothing personal about you, by the way - it would be the same no matter who was an ATD.
[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]In the current administration, and with the current workload, I believe our staffing level is adequate, and I know that my colleagues are doing their jobs. I think that should suffice for any organization.[/quote]
In most bureaucracies, I am sure the people involved are doing their jobs. But as part of that process, do they have the perspective to determine if their jobs are worth doing in the first place? That's the question - and based on your answer it's a possibility you don't seem to have considered.
[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]But since you are involved with both, perhaps you can enlighten us all as to "why that is."[/quote]
It's a reasonably well-known virtual airline. Why that is? Let me throw out the simplest possibility - we operate well without the equivalent of an ATD position because the position isn't really required. Occam's Razor and all that....
[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]I answered your question. You're welcome.[/quote]
Thank you. Hopefully I have answered some of yours.
Cheers!
Luke
-
It appears that the thread got out of context and ended up us a personal issue which was not my intention. Tom and David, I understand you got offended although you shouldn't because I'm not referring to the current staff. I thought it was obvious since I clearly said that with 8 people right now the job is done which obviously includes you. I also emphasized by saying "Which makes me wonder about the necessity for the majority of those positions when they were filled.". Please _do_ notice the _past_ tense. We used to have an Assistant of the events, an Assistant of the training in case you guys have forgotten it. The majority of the ARTCCs have an events coordinator. We really needed an assistant to the Events supervisor (sorry I don't remember the name of the position)? You know there are VATSIM structures out the there with 5-6 assistants all doing the exact same thing? Is all this really necessary? Or is it just for the fancy title?
-
I would like to note, and I think this was the direction of a poster prior to me, I was in no way referring to vatusa staff.
-
This is my last visit to this thread. For those who insist that if they don't see what staff members are doing, they're doing nothing, I have responsibility for eight ARTCCs. Among the routine tasks that I deal with are these:
The turnover of ATMs in the network is relatively frequent. Each time that happens, the ATD may participate in an exit interview, and at least discuss possible replacement recommendations from the outgoing ATM. He will then cause an announcement to be posted, review applications, conduct interviews each of which lasts 30 minutes or more, make a selection, install that individual, and provide support and orientation while the new ATM settles in.
Every ARTCC experiences occasional problem controllers at one time or another; some more often depending upon their size and complexity. These generally require intervention and or support of the ATD; he may mediate disputes, prepare evidence to present to a DCRM, and remain engaged in the resolution of the dispute.
Pilots occasionally make complaints regarding controller actions or ARTCC policy. These are generally settled with explanation or possibly some revision of standard practices. The process involves multiple emails, possible meetings, and if a revision of policy, review and approval.
ATDs review proposed SOP submitted by ARTCCs for alignment with VATUSA, VATNA and VATSIM policy such as the GRP. In some cases this may require consultation with the director and/or meetings.
ATDs review and approve proposed LOAs. In some cases these can require considerable input and revision, as in the case of LOAs with a VSOA. In one recent such matter, at least 60 emails were involved between a VSOA, an ARTCC, the ATD, VATUSA and VATSIM.
ATDs conduct regular checks of the VATUSA member management system to ensure that members do not wait unreasonable time for transfers and other matters.
ATDs conduct background checks and approve ARTCC senior staff selections.
ATDs maintain a presence in both VATUSA and VATSIM forums, and regularly respond to items of importance to their area of responsibility.
New members to the network consistently fail to read instructions or make appropriate selections when signing up initially. ATD's receive frequent email from individuals who signed up with the wrong facility, or don't like waiting for training, or don't think a test was fair, or don't want to wait seven days, or whatever. These emails are commonly received just about every day. Each of them requires a little research to determine the facts, may require checking with other staff, and each of them requires a response.
I've been called upon while an ATD to create a sector file from scratch, SOP, POF file, and other data that goes into establishing an ARTCC/FIR where none existed before.
I do my utmost to provide immediate response to emails from ARTCC staff. Not a day goes by that email of one sort or another is not received. It is my goal to answer them all without delay.
I've been an ATD for several years in two regions, before which I was an ATM. At one point one major ARTCC had internal strife and conflict to the point that its upper staff all left. It fell to me to fill in as interim ATM for almost two months while also fulfilling ATD responsibilities for the other ARTCCs in my region.
Aside from these ATD matters, I am a VATSIM supervisor and generate a number of hours in that endeavor each month. For the year 2010 that was 180 hours. I also have visiting privileges in nine facilities; some because they are in my region and I can help with events etc., others where I have been assigned before or facilities I instruct in; during 2010 I logged 340 hours controlling, mostly at Center level. As mentioned I also continue to instruct students. And I fly online, a regular member of two active vAs.
For more than a year I have been the interim VATUSA training director. As such I review every instructor application and upon approval process the instructor appointment; same for instructor removals, TA applications, appointments and removals. I am slowly revising the online TRC to bring it up to date and correct minor errors. I also maintain, along with Gary, the VATUSA test banks.
Visible on the network? Not that it matters one bit but yeah, I'd say so. Why do I and others do this, aside from our rabid desire to have so-called fancy titles? Good question ... it's becoming less and less worthwhile.
-
It appears that alot of people have alot of different ideas as to what VATSIM is all about. My view is VATSIM is here to provide a service to those that want to either fly or control online in order to enhance their Flight Sim experience, like interaction with others that have the same interests. Like I said, that is my view. I've been doing flight simulators for a very long time, from the desk top ones, to the "real" ones (if that makes sense). Umm Lockheed's P3 simulators. Where I enjoy the flying aspect, there was always something missing.... the interaction with others whether it be talking with other pilots flying online at the same time, or having to deal (not meant in a bad way) with ATC. Then I found VATSIM when I was laid up after major surgery, so I joined, and as David said, started as just a pilot, then got intrigued with ATC. I've progressed up through the ranks, can't say worked, because I really enjoyed what I was doing, and didn't really consider it work. I've held many positions both on the ATC and pilot side of the system, not because I was seeking titles, but for the most part, I was asked to help... I was asked to be the TA at Miami, I was aksed to be the CEO at AvA, I was asked to be the Dep Division Dir at Thailand.... so I helped where I could.... BUT..... I still love to fly, so I do, and as I stated in a privious post, I find the time while I'm flying, (thanks to whoever invented autopilot) to attend to my administrative duties as CEO of a VA that is, I"m thinking as large as or bigger than VATUSA, and my staff position at ZMA. I answer endless emails, deal with group dynamic issues, but none of those deter from my love of flying, and can all be handled on a daily basis while flying, whether it be a one hour hop from Miami to Atanta, or a 5 hour trip from Seattle to Honolulu.
So that statement about what's the point of being on VATSIM if you are not going to fly or control..... makes sense to me. (not pointing any fingers, just giving my view)
-
Visible on the network? Not that it matters one bit but yeah, I'd say so. Why do I and others do this, aside from our rabid desire to have so-called fancy titles? Good question ... it's becoming less and less worthwhile.
Tom, I really don't believe any reference to VATUSA staff not being online was referring to you, I saw it as more of a "if the shoe fits" kinda thing. Of course anyone that has any dealings with you would know that that shoe does not fit you.
-
I'm not tooting my own here at all, but I found that the general public was fond of the monthly/quarterly updates that I put out when I was USA3. It gave the public a view of what was going on behind the scenes, created a curtain of transparency, and squashed any doubts about what I was, or wasn't doing. Everyone knew, for good bad, or indifferent, the current state of the VATUSA Training Department.
I never held any VATUSA staff position other than three, but am curious as to how you guys are getting it done without having the position filled. I was usually pretty busy with talking to TA's, doing the quarterly training department meetings, the reports, the continuing education training that was provided to ARTCCs, updating the TRC to add in the advanced sections, and managing the other things that came in, in addition to doing the website enhancements when needed.
In short I was pretty busy with what I needed to do. If there was/is a more efficient way of doing things, please let me know, as i am very curious for personal and professional development reasons.
-
Michael, I agree, that was great info.... but you have to admit, without all the staff, it makes staff meetings interesting..... ask a question, then run around to the other side of the table and answer it yourself.... LOL
-
The discussion in this topic has been quite interesting and I guess I will chime in since I've held the Division Director and ATM positions. The crux of the matter is that people tend to compare the operations of VATSIM or VATUSA to a real world company, or other volunteer organizations, or virtual airlines. Quite frankly, that comparison cannot and should not be made. I see references to Delta Virtual, and no offense to Luke, but you tons more staff than VATUSA. You harp on the duties of the ATD, but your VA has multiple staff positions each with multiple assistants. I'm not saying that this structure is inefficient or inoperable, but you have a structure that mirrors VATUSA staff and yet you're here to criticize how this division operates. You've said it many times in public as well as to me; you aren't a controller and you don't understand how the administration of the ATC side of network operates. You ask questions in this thread to seek understanding, but many can see the maliciousness laced through each of your questions.
Mike explained his duties as the training director while I was the director of VATUSA. My intent with this post was to chime in with my opinions and experiences as director, and what was going through my mind in the process. I must admit that when I initially took the position, I filled all of the vacant positions out of precedence rather than a true understanding of what each would do with the team I was responsible for directing. I began to wonder why we needed so many ATDs, why we needed a communications manager, and what the consequences would be if I decided to cut back positions. However, I did not want to lose the people who were staffing these positions. The contributions by each ATD, by Ric, and everyone else on staff were too great to ask them to step down. It was ultimately my decision not to remove any of those positions from the structure unless one of the individuals resigned on their own accord, which never happened (and I didn't want it to happen either).
My deputy director was Alan Hensley who openly admitted that his position didn't serve much of any operational purpose except to be an advisor. Alan was correct, as his position didn't have any tangible duties to be seen by the division. However, his valuable insight and our friendship (which developed after his appointment, I didn't know Alan before) was what made his position so valuable to this division. He was also able to step in when I was away and he provided oversight among the staff ranks so I could focus on other duties. Someone can comment that he could have been an advisor without holding the position, but this is not the case since he had access to administrative pages of the division that was vital for continuity of operations in case I was unable to complete my duties.
I also found Mike's position to be incredibly important for how I was running VATUSA. His duties seemed endless, and Mike has a special talent for communicating with ARTCCs and maintaining not only the training department, but also providing excellent advice and input on division matters as a whole. I don't think anyone ever truly realizes the amount of work that goes into this hobby until they actually take a position and try it out. Luke, you should explore the ATC side of the network and see first-hand the intricacies of its operation.
I say all of this for one primary reason: each position in the division serves as a member of the director's team. And each position is in place to house a leader who will serve and provide direction to the members of the division. Anyone who accepts these positions simply for the title will not last long due to the amount of time involved with running the division. Also, I believe that whoever is tasked with the responsibility to hire these positions will recognize that a particular candidate has applied to do the work rather than accept the title. Additionally, each director should choose how he/she wants to run the division, with the obvious exception that continuity of operations is important. During my tenure, I found that each person was contributing to the successes of the division equally and therefore I had no reason to downsize at that time. Each person was able to complete their staffing duties *AND* enjoy the network sufficiently if they chose to do so.
Did I discuss partially or completely removing the ATD position? Yes. To be quite honest, I did want to remove the position because I believe that myself and Alan could have managed the ARTCCs sufficiently without the position. As I said earlier, the decision was a tough one and I found that the contributions by Tom, Robert, Cornell, and Roger were too great and their assistance was appreciated. Had I made the decision to remain as the director for longer than I did, then I'm sure appropriate action may have been taken down the road. But it simply was not an abrupt decision in my opinion.
To conclude my remarks, I will say that Gary is the director and he has the ability to lead this division however he sees fit. If he can operate without a training director or a deputy director, then that is his right and he should be supported for making that decision. I think that as long as VATUSA exists and is in place to provide support to the members of VATSIM, then it will continue to do so with 3 staff members or 30 staff members. The goal here is to fly and control, and have fun doing so. As long as you can do both of these things, then it seems unnecessary to troll forum discussions with irrelevant dialogue. VATUSA appears to be running properly, and it will be the Executive Committee's and BoG's job to oversee and ensure this continues to happen.
-
The crux of the matter is that people tend to compare the operations of VATSIM or VATUSA to a real world company, or other volunteer organizations, or virtual airlines. Quite frankly, that comparison cannot and should not be made.
What you're suggesting is that VATUSA is sufficiently unique that absolutely no objective comparison is possible with any other organization, no matter what its nature. Therefore, we have no objective way of determining whether the structure and size of VATUSA is effective. In the real world, this is completely unacceptable and won't get you anywhere. And having worked in structured volunteer and hobbyist organizations for 25 years this year, I can tell you it doesn't pass muster there either.
Part of the challenge I see with VATUSA is that there's a group of individuals within an organization that aggressively promotes the notion that no one outside their group is capable of assessing their effectiveness with any accuracy. They don't seem to be capable of much introspection as to what of their duties are really necessary or required. Those are great signs of an organization incapable of self-improvement.
[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]I see references to Delta Virtual, and no offense to Luke, but you tons more staff than VATUSA. You harp on the duties of the ATD, but your VA has multiple staff positions each with multiple assistants. I'm not saying that this structure is inefficient or inoperable, but you have a structure that mirrors VATUSA staff and yet you're here to criticize how this division operates.[/quote]
Alex, your analysis is completely faulty. You really should withdraw this nonsense.
You're absolutely correct in stating that Delta Virtual has multiple staff positions and several of those have assistants. But to claim that we have more staff than VATUSA is inaccurate. What you're counting as our staff is the equivalent of the ARTCC staffs as well. I have a program (the 737-800) with a manager and two assistants, handling 426 active pilots. Are you suggesting that there are ARTCCs in VATUSA with 3 staff members and 426 controllers? If so, my hat's off to you. If you want to make an accurate comparison, I'm happy to count our staff against the ATMs, DATMS, Event Coordinators, Engineers, Facility Advisory Boards and heavens knows what else exists at the local facility level. It might be interesting.
[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]You've said it many times in public as well as to me; you aren't a controller and you don't understand how the administration of the ATC side of network operates.[/quote]
Let me tell you a personal anecdote. I manage a group of a half-dozen software architects (what CNN called the "best job in America", and I agree) for a well-known US cable network. One of the less pleasant tasks of my job which I need to do this week is go through the annual review process for each of them. Now they're all exceptionally bright, talented and well-paid individuals, and while I understand some aspects of their job and share some of their skills all of them are far more versed in core areas of their duties than I will ever be. Now despite that liability, rest assured that absolutely no one would ever dream of suggesting that until I've done their job I'm incapable of assessing their performance, nor would I do anything more than say "that's quaint" and promptly proceed to do just that. (My own boss would do the same thing, except he'd chew me out for half an hour first for making such an absurd claim.)
So yes, I haven't been a controller. But to paraphrase Potter Stewart, when it comes to effective and efficient organizations, "I know it when I see it", and VATUSA isn't it. Based on what Tom's described in this thread, there's a fair amount of time being spent that probably can be avoided, and when I see existing and former office holders describing their duties in vague terms or challenging outsiders' ability to assess the organization's performance, that's smoke. And when there's smoke.....
[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]many can see the maliciousness laced through each of your questions.[/quote]
With respect Alex, but I don't care enough about any of you to be malicious.
I merely find the VATUSA structure (well, a great deal of the VATSIM structure as well) to be ineffective. The technology stack is painfully old and obsolete, we seem to have a fair bit of staff turnover (the revolving door at VATUSA, ATMs quitting in a snit) and the whole mess with GRP indicates an organization more focused on policy than results (and a Founders' group that seems to have a passive-aggressive attitude towards pushing change in "their" network).
But it's not done out of malice to you, or any of the officeholders. I think if you attribute malice to my suggestion that your talents would best serve the network in a different role, then maybe something's wound a little too tight. The entire point of rationalizing the VATUSA structure is to recognize the fact that there's a dire shortage of good, committed people in the organization. Let's not waste them doing things that aren't as important as others. I'm not sure why you attribute malice to that, but it's not common. VATSIM is full of people who blindly accept the status quo, and even more who defend their acceptance because even the obsolete technology we've put together is indistinguishable from magic for a large percentage of the community.
You should not confuse malice with a lack of acceptance of the answers you provide, based on different experience than yourself. If I held ill will towards VATSIM, I wouldn't have waited and gotten involved with the ATO partnership with VATSIM and spent the time required to implement it. It's unfortunate that the answer to criticism is either to accuse me of malice or incompetence.
[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]I must admit that when I initially took the position, I filled all of the vacant positions out of precedence rather than a true understanding of what each would do with the team I was responsible for directing. I began to wonder why we needed so many ATDs, why we needed a communications manager, and what the consequences would be if I decided to cut back positions. However, I did not want to lose the people who were staffing these positions. The contributions by each ATD, by Ric, and everyone else on staff were too great to ask them to step down.[/quote]
I think you confuse the elimination and reorganization of positions with letting people go, and that's not what a good manager should do. If you have a good team of individuals (and I've seen nothing about any of them individually to suggest otherwise) there's nothing preventing you from changing the structure to best apply these individuals - maybe that requires bringing things out of the ARTCC level to VATUSA, maybe it involves pushing things upwards, etc.
[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]Luke, you should explore the ATC side of the network and see first-hand the intricacies of its operation.[/quote]
The time requirements to become an ATC (which seems to be a pre-requisite for anything in VATSIM) and the time requirements aren't something I can prioritize against my other duties (I have two jobs - one pays much better and the second is infinitely more interesting and gives me more scope for accomplishment than anything VATSIM could offer). Instead, at some point we should grab a beer and you can explain to me how onerous and complicated it is. As a sign of my lack of malice, I'll pay.
Cheers!
Luke
-
The turnover of ATMs in the network is relatively frequent. Each time that happens, the ATD may participate in an exit interview, and at least discuss possible replacement recommendations from the outgoing ATM. He will then cause an announcement to be posted, review applications, conduct interviews each of which lasts 30 minutes or more, make a selection, install that individual, and provide support and orientation while the new ATM settles in.
Emphasis mine. Perhaps it might be a better use of your (and the other ATDs') time to focus on why we have such turnover. If we have the wrong people in the job, then change the hiring criteria. If the job is crazy, then change the role of the ATM. But if finding ATMs is such a time-consuming process, then we either need to make it happen less often, or make it take less time. And if it results in a lower quality of hire, no worries - they'll be quitting soon anyways! (I kid, but only partially.)
[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]Every ARTCC experiences occasional problem controllers at one time or another; some more often depending upon their size and complexity. These generally require intervention and or support of the ATD; he may mediate disputes, prepare evidence to present to a DCRM, and remain engaged in the resolution of the dispute.[/quote]
If you're regularly dealing with this kind of thing, then you have a problem. Either the ATM is a jerk, or the controllers are idiots. Either way, it shouldn't be something you waste much time on. It's a hobby - if I was a controller and I didn't like the facility, I'd just transfer out. That's all we do at Delta Virtual - if someone doesn't like a program, they transfer. Strangely enough, our HR staff doesn't spend much time dealing with this stuff. And all the DCRM formalities? Seriously?
[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]Pilots occasionally make complaints regarding controller actions or ARTCC policy. These are generally settled with explanation or possibly some revision of standard practices. The process involves multiple emails, possible meetings, and if a revision of policy, review and approval.[/quote]
Your complaint handling requires all this? Sounds like an awful lot of time spent.
[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]ATDs review proposed SOP submitted by ARTCCs for alignment with VATUSA, VATNA and VATSIM policy such as the GRP. In some cases this may require consultation with the director and/or meetings.[/quote]
How many SOP amendments do you guys make? How many are truly necessary in light of VATUSA actual traffic volumes versus real world?
[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]ATDs review and approve proposed LOAs. In some cases these can require considerable input and revision, as in the case of LOAs with a VSOA. In one recent such matter, at least 60 emails were involved between a VSOA, an ARTCC, the ATD, VATUSA and VATSIM.[/quote]
Words escape me.
[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]ATDs conduct regular checks of the VATUSA member management system to ensure that members do not wait unreasonable time for transfers and other matters.[/quote]
I built a web page to do that in seconds.
[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]ATDs conduct background checks and approve ARTCC senior staff selections.[/quote]
You check CERT, or do you pull a FICO?
I don't dispute some of the other things you mention farther down in your post, especially at the Division level. But the things you describe above are wonderful candidates for examining whether all you're doing is truly necessary, and what would happen if you pushed back and didn't get involved. 60 e-mails from an LOA request? I'm hard pressed to find more than a dozen e-mails getting us certified as an ATO. What's going on?
Let me ask you a question - do you feel that everything you do is truly necessary? If you did half as much, would VATUSA fall apart? How much less effective would the division be? Before I'm accused of something, I'm not suggesting that you as a person are superfluous. But it's worth questioning whether all the e-mails, meetings and TeamSpeak conferences might be better served re-creating a training academy, or controlling, or instructing, or whatever.
Cheers!
Luke
-
[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]What you're suggesting is that VATUSA is sufficiently unique that absolutely no objective comparison is possible with any other organization, no matter what its nature. Therefore, we have no objective way of determining whether the structure and size of VATUSA is effective. In the real world, this is completely unacceptable and won't get you anywhere. And having worked in structured volunteer and hobbyist organizations for 25 years this year, I can tell you it doesn't pass muster there either.[/quote]
I see where you are coming from, but I still can't lead myself to believe that we can compare VATUSA/VATSIM to other organizations carte blanche. I agree that we can determine effectiveness through comparison on some occasion and it is obvious that we all tap our professional experiences and apply (or used to apply) them to the network. However, companies have individuals who get paid and by virtue of the position can be fired. Unfortunately, VATSIM doesn't take that stance and in some instances it seems it would rather defend the troll rather than support the staff who wants to allow them to seek other opportunities, which in turn would benefit the organization as well as the individual who is no longer performing their duties. Not to mention that getting out of VATSIM politics is a gift on its own.
I currently sit on the board of directors for a non-profit whose annual budget reaches into the latter half of the six figures. I've attempted to draw comparisons, but I simply can't find much common ground. Both include a bit of hobbyist mentality, involve donated resources (and we bring in income from our operations), and have a staff who are dedicated to improve the cause. Beyond this, I can't make the assertion that a certain number of staff should apply to both equally. I think VATSIM would be better off if our management style was adopted, but we know that won't be happening ever.
One thing you should realize about VATUSA is that you need to see the division management as a different function than the ARTCC management. I can agree with you from a standpoint that assistants at the ARTCC level is absolutely ridiculous, period. I believe an ARTCC can and should utilize an ATM, Training Administrator, and an events guy. Deputy ATMs, probably not needed in most ARTCCs. As for the webmaster issue which you frequently tackle, I agree that more cooperation and sharing of resources should occur in order to prevent reinventing the wheel 20+ times in every facility, but it is a position that I don't believe fits into a bloated mess regardless. VATSIM had talked previously about expanding CERT to allow ARTCC leaders to manage rosters among other things, which in my opinion would reduce the level of backend work that webmasters at each ARTCC need to do (and would likely remove the need for their position entirely).
With that said, ARTCCs each have their own flavor, or personality if you will. I say let them operate as needed with sufficient oversight by VATUSA to prevent malicious activity and favoritism, which tends to happen at that level more than others.
[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]Part of the challenge I see with VATUSA is that there's a group of individuals within an organization that aggressively promotes the notion that no one outside their group is capable of assessing their effectiveness with any accuracy. They don't seem to be capable of much introspection as to what of their duties are really necessary or required. Those are great signs of an organization incapable of self-improvement.[/quote]
I agree, but let me address your statement with a question. Doesn't this apply to the Board of Governors and Founders as well?
[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]I think you confuse the elimination and reorganization of positions with letting people go, and that's not what a good manager should do. If you have a good team of individuals (and I've seen nothing about any of them individually to suggest otherwise) there's nothing preventing you from changing the structure to best apply these individuals - maybe that requires bringing things out of the ARTCC level to VATUSA, maybe it involves pushing things upwards, etc.[/quote]
You're absolutely correct. In the instance that I described, it was my assessment that nothing could be done to keep those individuals on staff in the manner in which you describe. I didn't see anything that could be brought to the VATUSA level that we weren't already attempting to push voluntarily. Andrew did a lot of work as the webmaster to try and relieve those duties by the ARTCCs, but it was intended to be voluntary and some did use his services. The exception to the first point was after Andrew took over, when he moved Robert from the ATD to the Pilot Services position which had been discussed between all of us when I was still the director. It was entirely their idea and it was a good one, but it didn't resolve the issue of the 3 others and the communication director.
[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]Instead, at some point we should grab a beer and you can explain to me how onerous and complicated it is. As a sign of my lack of malice, I'll pay[/quote]
I was actually driving through your area a day before the snow hit. However, your offer is enticing.
-
I'm just wondering, does your ratio of 3:400 staff to participants involve personally training each of those participants in every level of their progress? I'm not sure this is a fair comparison.
Do the ATMs personally train every controller in their facility? I left out the instructors and the mentors for that reason.
[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]So at first, the ATDs are unecessary because they don't do anything, and now they are at fault for doing too much? What's your point exactly? I'm afraid I'm lost here.[/quote]
My point is that a fair bit of what the ATDs are doing isn't of great value, or can be done more effectively. It's quite possible to be insanely busy and not doing anything critical, and this might be the case.
Part of the reason why I'm comparing VATUSA/VATSIM against other corporate and volunteer organizations that I've been involved with in past years is that VATSIM seems to have far more levels of hierarchy than any other organization I've dealt with, yet be far less effective and dynamic in its mission.
Cheers!
Luke
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I see where you are coming from, but I still can't lead myself to believe that we can compare VATUSA/VATSIM to other organizations carte blanche. I agree that we can determine effectiveness through comparison on some occasion and it is obvious that we all tap our professional experiences and apply (or used to apply) them to the network.
You can't compare VATSIM to a single organization. But over time, the other organizations you belong to (for-profit corporate, volunteer, non-profit corporate, hobbyist) become a frame of reference in aggregate and you learn to weigh them accordingly. After a certain time, you develop enough points of reference and when you get an outlier in terms of metrics and effectiveness, it doesn't matter how unique or different they are - there's a prima facie case that the outlier is ineffective rather than the outlier is unique. It's rebuttable, of course. I've yet to see anything from VATSIM that does so. It has more levels of hierarchy and less results.
[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]However, companies have individuals who get paid and by virtue of the position can be fired.[/quote]
This is unfortunate, because as we like to point out, it's only a hobby. If someone gets removed as the ATM of some facility it's not going to affect their ability to put food on the table. In that sense it's easier to let someone go, because it's only a hobby. Unfortunately for some folks when that is the most significant accomplishment they can claim, it becomes very difficult. I know - 20 years ago a position in a virtual organization was the most significant thing I could claim. I've been there, and I was wrong then.
[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]Unfortunately, VATSIM doesn't take that stance and in some instances it seems it would rather defend the troll rather than support the staff who wants to allow them to seek other opportunities, which in turn would benefit the organization as well as the individual who is no longer performing their duties.[/quote]
I think any organization that over-formalizes "conflict resolution" policies is merely asking for trouble. It does nothing but encourage jailhouse lawyers.
[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]I currently sit on the board of directors for a non-profit whose annual budget reaches into the latter half of the six figures. I've attempted to draw comparisons, but I simply can't find much common ground. Both include a bit of hobbyist mentality, involve donated resources (and we bring in income from our operations), and have a staff who are dedicated to improve the cause. Beyond this, I can't make the assertion that a certain number of staff should apply to both equally.[/quote]
That's fair, and perhaps I should qualify (and maybe even backtrack from!) my earlier statements just a little. I mention DVA because we have a lot of members, and the staff/member ratio is very high, much higher than VATUSA. I mention it because it makes the case that a volunteer organization (a volunteer aviation-based organization, no less) can operate successfully with a significantly different staff/member ratio. I don't know whether the right ratio for VATUSA is the same as ours. Probably not. But when I see a broadly similar organization operating with numbers significantly different from my own, I pay close attention.
Another anecdote - at my day job, I report to a Senior VP who reports to the CIO who reports to the CEO. For my team, there's three managers between them and the CEO - some other teams have four. Most other places I've worked at have been similar, some have been much less. (You can tell I've never worked for a truly giant conglomerate.) And here too when I see VATSIM with so many (parallel) levels of hierarchy for a volunteer organization, it's valid to compare it to what I've done professionally and at least suspect that somethings out of kilter.
VATSIM is IMO too often fat, dumb and happy. When pilots do that, they die. Organizations, I suspect, aren't much different except that it takes longer.
[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]One thing you should realize about VATUSA is that you need to see the division management as a different function than the ARTCC management.[/quote]
I've not quoted much of what you said here but I agree with a lot of it. This statement, less so - while they focus on different things at different levels, to me everyone from VATUSA1 down to the lowest Assistant Deputy Facility Advisory Board Vice-Chairman pro tempore should be considered part of the VATUSA staff, albeit at different levels, and VATUSA should be very interested in how its staff is being deployed across the country. I'll confess again that I'm a ruthless centralizer at times, and VATUSA needs some centralized oversight and allocation of people. You've decentralized a great deal to the facility level, and some parts make sense, others do not.
My thinking has been that if it's not different at the facility level, you centralize it. Something like the old Academy was fantastic because it let you get some standardized training out and then let the facilities round out the local procedures. If you don't have enough people to do it right at the facility level (like web stuff), you centralize it. If you can't centralize it effectively at the VATUSA level
[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]With that said, ARTCCs each have their own flavor, or personality if you will. I say let them operate as needed with sufficient oversight by VATUSA to prevent malicious activity and favoritism, which tends to happen at that level more than others.[/quote]
Agreed, and I don't want the local facilities to lose local flavor. But again, local flavor needs to be things that are truly local, which is local policies and a local culture that comes from people working together over time. Centralization aids in avoiding favoritism since once you have the data in one place it becomes very easy to spot the outliers and start questioning what is going on. Local flavor shouldn't interfere with consistent division-wide results unless the variance is expected in advance.
[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]I agree, but let me address your statement with a question. Doesn't this apply to the Board of Governors and Founders as well? [/quote]
Very much so. I have few friends at the latter level.
[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]I didn't see anything that could be brought to the VATUSA level that we weren't already attempting to push voluntarily. Andrew did a lot of work as the webmaster to try and relieve those duties by the ARTCCs, but it was intended to be voluntary and some did use his services.[/quote]
I think it might have been an interesting exercise to make things not so voluntary. Interesting and valuable change is rarely voluntary.
[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]I was actually driving through your area a day before the snow hit. However, your offer is enticing. [/quote]
I was in a (barely) warmer part of the US that day. Next time you're in Atlanta, give me a shout.
Cheers!
Luke
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Dave took away my position.. I was very upset.
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Why is there so much red tape in getting a policy approved,
Not to call anyone out, but how come it took over a month to get a simply change to an activity policy approved???
Why dont artccs use the Vatusa trc, wasn't it built to have a academy without instructors, yet every instructor is a little different in STANDARD phraseology,
If artccs would use the TRC then add in the local flavor training would take 3 weeks vs 3 months.
Maybe a better training scheduling system would help too.
IMO a hybrid INS post avaiable times in a calendar and students post projected avaiable times in a forum post. This gives the best of both worlds.
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Anthony,
These ideas are something you should take up with your home ARTCC. These seem to be isolated to single ARTCC's, not VATUSA as a whole.
DL
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Anthony raises a valid point. The TRC was designed to serve as a guide for initial training, which could relieve the training department of each ARTCC from teaching the basics that can be applied anywhere. This would allow for instructors to focus on the intricacies of their individual airspace, cutting down time spent instructing and combating burnout by instructors. It was also developed so that all training administrators could edit the material to keep it up to date. I'm not sure how it is being utilized now, but at one point this was the intent.
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Anthony raises a valid point. The TRC was designed to serve as a guide for initial training, which could relieve the training department of each ARTCC from teaching the basics that can be applied anywhere. This would allow for instructors to focus on the intricacies of their individual airspace, cutting down time spent instructing and combating burnout by instructors. It was also developed so that all training administrators could edit the material to keep it up to date. I'm not sure how it is being utilized now, but at one point this was the intent.
Alex is right. The point of the TRC was two serve two purposes.
1. Provide a current, interactive way to teach the complexities of ATC to the new student in a way that didn't sacrifice standards, but made it easy. ATC for dummies..if you will. The long term vision I had was to at some point after the completion of the TRC, supply ARTCCs with an example sylabus of how they could use the TRC and other online training resources to make efficient use of their instructors time. All optional, as I wasn't big on forcing anything, but at least they would have the resources available to take it and run with it.
2. Serve as a way for the division to work together to ensure the accuracy of the material. Prior to the TRC, everything had to be manually updated. With the TRC, every ATM/DATM/TA in the division can update the material if they don't like how something looks, is worded, etc. The edits have to be approved by VATUSA 1/2/3/6, and that was only there to as a safety precaution.
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Maybe a better training scheduling system would help too.
VATSIM UK has an excellent training website which allows students to post their availablity on various dates and times, the mentor then logs in and sees the request and can pick from the availability before picking up the session.
I don't know how much you can see without being a member, but maybe something like this would be helpful - I'm not intimate with the way USA plans mentoring sessions.
http://rts.vatsim-uk.org/home/login.php (http://rts.vatsim-uk.org/home/login.php)
Regards from the other side of the Atlantic.
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This is the first time I'm comenting on this situation. I honestly feel that no one needs to know why certain staff member aren't logged onto the network enough. The Vatusa Staff has been doing a great job, but some people don't see this. These jobs are volunteer, and these gentlemen go beyond their duties. Last night was a perfect example of showing where the management is. We had a meeting discussing how to make the training better for you, the students. A few VATUSA staff members, ATMs, DATMs, TAs, and other staff members were present in a teamspeak server for 2 hours and better. So let's not worry why they aren't seen on Vatspy, or on our controller list, let's apprectiatd what they do for the division on a daily basis; whether its behind the scenes or not.
That's my $.02
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VATSIM UK has an excellent training website which allows students to post their availablity on various dates and times, the mentor then logs in and sees the request and can pick from the availability before picking up the session.
Various ARTCCs within VATUSA have this too. I can't imagine why something that would need to be done on the divisional level.
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If artccs would use the TRC then add in the local flavor training would take 3 weeks vs 3 months.
Anthony,
I would agree with you that it would shorten training. But please don't make unsupported statements like "If ARTCCs would do this...and that..." without knowing what other ARTCCs actually do. We do use the TRC in Denver, and it does shorten training. I know a few other ARTCCs that do so as well. Currently the problem is the fact that we can't update it, which is completely outside of ARTCC control.
Policy approvals take less than a week when submitted to VATUSA RDs. Months for an activity policy is not the fault of your RD.
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Currently the problem is the fact that we can't update it, which is completely outside of ARTCC control.
Why not? ATMs/DATMs/TAs can update it, unless something has changed in the last year, but it shouldn't have. The whole premise of making it a wiki to begin with was so that it could be updated.
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Why not? ATMs/DATMs/TAs can update it, unless something has changed in the last year, but it shouldn't have. The whole premise of making it a wiki to begin with was so that it could be updated.
Mike,
As far as I'm aware, none of our logins work anymore. Other than that I don't know what the status is.
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A while back I emailed Gary regarding this and the answer I got was he didn't have access. Not sure if that's changed since.
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If I recall correctly, when I wrote the synced up login functionality, i set it up so you had to first log into the vatusa website, and then once you go the TRC it would auto log you in, once you had a valid session for the main site. If the TRC is broken, that's a problem, and since I was the one who coded the integration peice for it in the first place, i would be very very happy to help fix it. Seems like a lot of work wasted if it's not working properly.
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If I recall correctly, when I wrote the synced up login functionality, i set it up so you had to first log into the vatusa website, and then once you go the TRC it would auto log you in, once you had a valid session for the main site. If the TRC is broken, that's a problem, and since I was the one who coded the integration peice for it in the first place, i would be very very happy to help fix it. Seems like a lot of work wasted if it's not working properly.
The TRC access has been restored and is functioning properly...it took a while but we got it sorted out.