VATUSA Forums
General => The Classroom (Controller Tips) => Topic started by: Salvatore Barcia on July 15, 2009, 12:22:05 AM
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Here is a line that will help your Clearance be in order, and correct.
Craft
C- Clearance( dosnt always need to be and airport, it can be a VOR ex...)
R-Roue (you can say their exit point then as filed if the route is correct, otherwise you need to read the full ammendment.)
A-Altitude( The intial altitude and crusing altitude.) (keep in mind of US direction rules show at the bottom)
F- Departure Freq
T-Transponder (squawk) code.
JBU1602 IFR KLGA->KBOS MERIT ORW ORW3 FL230
Lets put that flight plan in craft!
C- Boston Logan Airport
R- MERIT ORW ORW3
A LaGuarda initial altitude is 5,000 and cruising is FL230
F LSO_DEP 120.4
T 1101
Lets give the clearance with CRAFT helping us!!
Jetblue1602 cleared to the Boston Logan Airport via radar vectors Merit, then as filed. Maintain 5,000 expect FL230 10 mins after departure. Departure on 120.4. Squawk 1102.
They you go!!!
All planes travling in the US must abideby the altitude laws.
- Any aircraft going north or East must have a Odd altitude like FL230
- Any aircraft going South or West must have a even altitude like FL220
How to Remember this
NEODD- the first two letters stand for NORTH or EAST and then it says odd
SWEVEN- the first two letters stand for SOUTH or WEST and the even.
REPLY FOR ANY ERRORS OR IF I MISSED SOMTHING. You can message me for questions!!!
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A couple of things.
with your above clearance to JBU1602, 'via radar vectors MERIT' gives ambiguity to what the pilot should do after wheels up. Obviously they will be given radar vectors, but what should they do before they receive those radar vectors? they could make any turns they want and be perfectly legal in doing so. Second, 'Departure on' is improper phraseology (see the 7110.65, 3-9-3).
So this clearance, with full CRAFT, using 3-9-3 and 4-3-2, should be:
[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]Jetblue 1602, cleared to the Boston Logan airport via runway heading, radar vectors direct MERIT, then as filed. Maintain 5000, expect FL230 10 minutes after departure. Departure frequency 120.4, squawk 1102.[/quote]
BL.
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A couple of things.
with your above clearance to JBU1602, 'via radar vectors MERIT' gives ambiguity to what the pilot should do after wheels up. Obviously they will be given radar vectors, but what should they do before they receive those radar vectors? they could make any turns they want and be perfectly legal in doing so. Second, 'Departure on' is improper phraseology (see the 7110.65, 3-9-3).
So this clearance, with full CRAFT, using 3-9-3 and 4-3-2, should be:
BL.
I really have never heard this anywhere on LiveATC or at my home airport, which has no DPs. Since most ATCTs assign headings in the takeoff clearance, the pilot could not deviate from that heading until advised (or for an emergency). I suppose the above clearance you provided would be given only at towers which do not assign headings in the takeoff clearance. Isn't this correct?
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I really have never heard this anywhere on LiveATC or at my home airport, which has no DPs. Since most ATCTs assign headings in the takeoff clearance, the pilot could not deviate from that heading until advised (or for an emergency). I suppose the above clearance you provided would be given only at towers which do not assign headings in the takeoff clearance. Isn't this correct?
You're correct here, Harold. the point I was making was that if no heading was given, as per the OP's clearance, the pilot have the ambiguity of what to do in between his aircraft getting wheels up and receiving the first radar vector. there would be nothing stopping him/her from doing a complete 360 before receiving that first vector. So the ambiguity needs to be handled, which 4-3-2.c.1.c handles:
[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]c. At all other airports- Do not specify direction of takeoff/turn after takeoff. If necessary to specify an initial heading/azimuth to be flown after takeoff, issue the initial heading/azimuth so as to apply only within controlled airspace.[/quote]
So ATCTs can assign headings in the takeoff clearance; for the example, I used runway heading. It would be better (and IMHO, beneficial) to assign the heading in the clearance than send them up without one and let the departure controller handle it.
BL.
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Brad,
One question, and I think that this topic has been debated before but, you give the instruction "maintain 5000". How can an aircraft maintain 5000 when they are currently on the ground, don't they have to get there. I wouldn't give that instruction like that as a radar controller it wouldn't make any sense.
Just wondering.
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You're correct here, Harold. the point I was making was that if no heading was given, as per the OP's clearance, the pilot have the ambiguity of what to do in between his aircraft getting wheels up and receiving the first radar vector. there would be nothing stopping him/her from doing a complete 360 before receiving that first vector. So the ambiguity needs to be handled, which 4-3-2.c.1.c handles:
There is no ambiguity which needs to be handled. 4-3-2.c.1.c doesn't apply to LGA (unless we're talking about a different LGA which isn't controlled and outside the Class E surface area) c.1.a would apply in this case, and it wouldn't be necessary in the initial clearance as the heading would be assigned by local.
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Brad,
One question, and I think that this topic has been debated before but, you give the instruction "maintain 5000". How can an aircraft maintain 5000 when they are currently on the ground, don't they have to get there. I wouldn't give that instruction like that as a radar controller it wouldn't make any sense.
Just wondering.
This is an interesting topic. From what I teach and from what I've always done, the correct phraseology would be, "maintain 5000" and NOT "climb and maintain 5000". Here's the reason: let's say you are departing an airport that has a pretty complex SID. You were cleared via the SID, and told to maintain, let's say, 10000. If you tell the aircraft to climb and maintain 10000, it cancels the altitudes on the SID... the aircraft does not need to comply with restrictions. If you said maintain 10000 in the clearance, he will climb and meet restrictions until he reaches 10000. Now, seeing how I've never really had to deal with SIDs like that, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that if you tell an aircraft to "climb and maintain" as a DEP controller and you still need them to meet restrictions, you need to say so specifically.
Hopefully that makes sense and I was at least in the ballpark with my answer...
JM
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This is an interesting topic. From what I teach and from what I've always done, the correct phraseology would be, "maintain 5000" and NOT "climb and maintain 5000". Here's the reason: let's say you are departing an airport that has a pretty complex SID. You were cleared via the SID, and told to maintain, let's say, 10000. If you tell the aircraft to climb and maintain 10000, it cancels the altitudes on the SID... the aircraft does not need to comply with restrictions. If you said maintain 10000 in the clearance, he will climb and meet restrictions until he reaches 10000. Now, seeing how I've never really had to deal with SIDs like that, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that if you tell an aircraft to "climb and maintain" as a DEP controller and you still need them to meet restrictions, you need to say so specifically.
Hopefully that makes sense and I was at least in the ballpark with my answer...
JM
Additionally, this is what is written in the .65, so that's what I've always taught as well.
Edit: Oh, and Brad, thanks for the explanation. Makes sense!
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Can you give me a reference in the .65 to back your statements. Also the original example was a radar vectored departure therefore you aren't canceling out any SID instructions. There was no departure plate to provide further instructions to the pilot.
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Bruce,
I'm finding the reference now. The reason I teach it this way is simply because it's a good habit to get into. I've always been taught this way, and this is the way I generally hear it in the real-world.
JM
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Try 4-3-4 Departure Procedures. Even in the clearance delivery portion, all of the examples say "maintain", NOT "climb and maintain".
One example given is: Cleared to Reynolds Airport; David Two RNAV Departure, Kingham Transition; then, as filed. Maintain niner thousand. Expect flight level four one zero, one zero minutes after departure.
Another: Cleared to Reynolds Airport via Victor Ninety‐one Albany, then as filed. Maintain six thousand.
And finally: Cleared to Missoula International Airport, Chief Two
Departure to Angley; direct Salina; then as filed; maintain
one seven thousand.
JM
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Brad,
One question, and I think that this topic has been debated before but, you give the instruction "maintain 5000". How can an aircraft maintain 5000 when they are currently on the ground, don't they have to get there. I wouldn't give that instruction like that as a radar controller it wouldn't make any sense.
Just wondering.
Bruce,
Have a look at 4-3-3.4.d:
[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]d. When no changes are required in the filed route, state the phrase: “Cleared to (destination) airport, (SID and SIDtransition, as appropriate); then, as filed.†If a SID is not assigned, follow with “As filed.†Specify the assigned altitude; and, if required, add any additional instructions or information, including final requested altitude if different than assigned
except if Pre-Departure Clearance (PDC) is utilized.
PHRASEOLOGY
CLEARED TO (destination) AIRPORT; and as appropriate,
(SID name and number) DEPARTURE, THEN AS FILED. MAINTAIN (altitude); (additional instructions or information).
If a SID is not assigned,
CLEARED TO (destination) AIRPORT AS FILED. MAINTAIN (altitude); and if required, (additional instructions or information).
EXAMPLE-
“Cleared to Reynolds Airport; David Two RNAV Departure, Kingham Transition; then, as filed. Maintain niner thousand. Expect flight level four one zero, one zero minutes after departure.â€[/quote]
Note 'maintain', not 'climb and maintain'. If you filed something like the COWBY2 departure out of KLAS, if you included 'climb and maintain 10000' in your clearance, not only have you killed the crossing restrictions at ROPPR, CEASR, NAPSE, and BAKRR, but you've also canceled the initial altitude depicted in the chart description, which is FL190. If you said 'climb and maintain FL190 in the clearance', you've then voided all of the crossing restrictions on the SID, in the clearance delivery. Using 'maintain' eliminates that confusion.
BL.
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A couple of things.
with your above clearance to JBU1602, 'via radar vectors MERIT' gives ambiguity to what the pilot should do after wheels up. Obviously they will be given radar vectors, but what should they do before they receive those radar vectors? they could make any turns they want and be perfectly legal in doing so. Second, 'Departure on' is improper phraseology (see the 7110.65, 3-9-3).
So this clearance, with full CRAFT, using 3-9-3 and 4-3-2, should be:
BL.
Sorry on this one BL but in the course of my career I can not tell you how many times I said "radar vectors (fix)" in a clearance, leaving out the word direct. I do not think adding the word 'direct" to this clearance is necessary. Nor did the Academy and my facilities. We both know as the radar controller, as soon as we're able we are gonna give him direct. Besides, those of us (including yourself I believe) who have worked RW radar know that he is not going to make some crazy turns. He was told radar vectors Merit and that is what he is going to expect. On VATSIM, yeah I would tend to say they might do as you suggest, lol. Also on VATSIM, after hearing how a lot of clearances are being given, I would be tickled to hear a clearance given as he did in the example he gave. Also "departure frequency will be" was the way we were taught in Ok City. But again, I am not going to harp at a student for leaving the words "will be" out. There are more important things on VATSIM that need to be taught, e.g. reading METARS correctly would be near the top of the list. And ON and On.
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Here is a line that will help your Clearance be in order, and correct.
Craft
C- Clearance( dosnt always need to be and airport, it can be a VOR ex...)
R-Roue (you can say their exit point then as filed if the route is correct, otherwise you need to read the full ammendment.)
A-Altitude( The intial altitude and crusing altitude.) (keep in mind of US direction rules show at the bottom)
F- Departure Freq
T-Transponder (squawk) code.
JBU1602 IFR KLGA->KBOS MERIT ORW ORW3 FL230
Lets put that flight plan in craft!
C- Boston Logan Airport
R- MERIT ORW ORW3
A LaGuarda initial altitude is 5,000 and cruising is FL230
F LSO_DEP 120.4
T 1101
Lets give the clearance with CRAFT helping us!!
Jetblue1602 cleared to the Boston Logan Airport via radar vectors Merit, then as filed. Maintain 5,000 expect FL230 10 mins after departure. Departure on120.4. Squawk 1102.
Well I was a Laguardia Controller at ZNY and it was
Jetblue1602 cleared to the Boston Logan Airport radar vectors Merit, then as filed. Maintain 5,000 expect FL230 10 mins after departure. Departure freq 120.4. Squawk 1102.
no "via"
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Guys, Sal was trying to help. post some helpful information for the new guys.
1. "Maintain" or "Climb and maintain"? I've always been taught "Maintain". If you were taught something different, so be it. Let's not get our panties in a wad over this.
2. "no 'via'" does it REALLY make a difference?
This is getting waaaayyyy out of proportiion.
Something that does irk me, though, is the difference from "then as filed" and "as filed." If you make one or more amendments to the flight plan, such as changing "SAV" to "McCoy9 SAV" it should read:
JBU321 SAV RDU BAL, MCO-BWI, FL330
JBU321, Orlando clearance, cleared to the Baltimore Washington Int'l airport via the McCoy nine departure, Savanah transition, THEN AS FILED, maintain 5000 expect flight level 330 in 10, departure on 125.95, squawk 1704.
If you do not make an amendment, it should read:
JBU321, orlando clearance, cleared to the Baltimore Washington Int'l airport via radar vectors savanah, AS FILED. Maintain 5000 expect flight level 330 in 10, departure on 125.95, squawk 1704.
Just something that I look for in my students. It just irritates me. We all have our pet peves, so we just all need to live with them, eh?
Good job, though, Sal. Good information.
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Jonah,
It really isn't pet peeves that is the crux of the debate, but more about the ambiguities left after someone gives a clearance. Take your last clearance, for example:
[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]JBU321, orlando clearance, cleared to the Baltimore Washington Int'l airport via radar vectors savanah, AS FILED. Maintain 5000 expect flight level 330 in 10, departure on 125.95, squawk 1704.[/quote]
What happens if communications is lost? No SID to follow any lost comms procedures, and all that the pilot knows is once airborne, he is radar vectors savannah'. What does he do there? Like mentioned above, there is nothing to stop the aircraft from making a 180 back into oncoming arrivals on final while waiting for that first radar vector.
'Departure on' is definitely not proper phraseology:
3-9-3.a.1
Issue the appropriate departure control frequency and beacon code. The departure control frequency may be omitted if a SID has been or will be assigned and the departure control frequency is published on the SID.
PHRASEOLOGY: DEPARTURE FREQUENCY (frequency), SQUAWK (code).
Personally, I'd rather have it right the first time, than have to go back and correct how many things were done wrong. Saves both the student and me a lot of heartburn.
BL.
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Jonah, -- and I mean this in a non-disrespectful but matter-of-factual way -- I'm not entirely sure that you're whole thing about "not getting our panties in a wad" is 100% valid, because you cite two phraseology references that you don't seem to particularly care much about, but then you posted an incorrect claim about "as filed" and post a clearance delivery with several errors. As mentors and instructors (I was a mentor, instructor, and training administrator for a few years before changing ARTCCs), we should really try to teach 100% by the book (either the 7110.65 or the real-world facility adaptions of it). And I understand that what you typed is not necessarily what is always taught or said over VATSIM frequencies, but in the interest of keeping these tips correct for students who may utilize them, I changed the clearances to comply with what is published in the .65. My intention is, again, not to undermine anything you said, but to make sure what is said to students is as correct as we can make it.
Cleared to Reynolds Airport; David Two RNAV Departure, Kingham Transition; then, as filed. Maintain niner thousand. Expect flight level four one zero, one zero minutes after departure.
[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]JBU321, Orlando Clearance Delivery, cleared to the Baltimore Washington Int'l Airport; via the McCoy Niner Departure, Savanah Transition, THEN AS FILED, maintain 5000 expect flight level 330 in 10 one-zero minutes after departure. Departure frequency 125.95, squawk 1704.[/quote]
[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]JBU321, Orlando Clearance Delivery, cleared to the Baltimore Washington Int'l Airport via radar vectors to Savanah, THEN AS FILED. Maintain 5000 expect flight level 330 in 10 one-zero minutes after departure. Departure frequency 125.95, squawk 1704.[/quote]
There isn't a mention of saying something like "...radar vectors to XXX, as filed," but there is a clear difference among examples when the 7110.65S indicates to use "then as filed" versus "as filed." It seems as if when any part of the route is read, it is followed by "then as filed." Otherwise routes are simply said "as filed" when no SID is assigned. I've never heard a controller issue a clearance that states "radar vectors to XXX, as filed." Logically it doesn't make a whole lot of sense, because nobody "files" for radar vectors. Additionally it can cause problems if the controller states the wrong "radar vectors to XXX" navaid and follows with "as filed." "Then as filed" implies a continuation of a route, but it is not used to restate a route or confirm that what a controller just said ("radar vectors to...") was filed in a flight plan. I could go on for days, because clearly I'm a bit obsessed with this stuff, but really this is the only thing in the air. The rest of the points made are pretty solid.
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Oh, whoops. Brad and I have already covered the heading-in-clearance debate, and of course, I forgot what he had already said before I basically restated everything I said before. I skipped right to the latest posts and went from there. Sorry, Brad! Edited that part out as it's been covered already.
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I enjoy the conversation created here, and if anyone has any other "atc tips" please post in a new topic so we can get these up.
As for the phraseology/procedure issue, my stance has always been this:
If we are going to teach it, we need to teach it right.
When I first released the S1 guide for the Training Resource Center, You should've seen all the corrections I had to make just to the clearance delivery section; just to the phraseology aspect of it. Here I was thinking that I was a pretty decent controller, and I was messing up simple clearance delivery.
Truth be told, no one ever took the time to teach me correctly, and when I thought about it, I thought about all the students who I have trained who have not been taught correctly, and realized that it's a vicious cycle. At some point in the time, the cycle must break. Now I'm not saying that I feel people should be trained to be real world controllers, but they SHOULD be trained using correct phraseology and procedure, and possess an understanding of why we do the things we do, as a minimum.
There have been times I've had to tun away visiting controllers because they simply were not up to par to BASIC ATC standards. How do you think the student felt? All that time they thought they knew what they were doing, but it turns out they really didn't. It's a frustrating experience to the student.
That is why I'm so big about making sure the TRC is as correct as can be. I don't want there to be any more students who have be turned down because they didn't know something vital. I also don't want the instructors/TAs to be able to say, "I didn't know". The TRC is the guide. Use it. Now you know.
It does not matter if your a mentor, instructor, TA, or even VATUSA3, you have got to keep teaching yourself and expanding your knowledge of this. The more you know, the more confident you are, the more successful you'll be, and the more you'll be able to think on your feet when you encounter that unusual situation or problem. I can't even begin to tell you all of what I've learned about ATC, in my time as VATUSA3, and am honestly blessed to have the opportunity.
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I agree. I think it was a great learning experience for everyone. Also Sal, thanks for putting this up. I think it will help some of the new guys out a lot.
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Hi there!
Great post. I'll definitely be sending it over to many of my S1 "trainee" friends. :D
You did reference that you're working in New York. Many airports, specifically in New York, have climbs as part of their departures... As I haven't used them many times, I can't generate a "teaching" reply, however I will remind those reading that these climbs do exist, and should generally be included in a clearance, if at all possible.
Just my note. Thanks! :D
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This post hasnt been written on since Jan 2010, nearly 7 years old. There are bound to be a few discrepancies between then and now
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Haha! Just noticed the date. :P