Clearance Delivery Tips

Salvatore Barcia

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Clearance Delivery Tips
« on: July 14, 2009, 10:22:05 PM »
Here is a line that will help your Clearance be in order, and correct.


Craft

C- Clearance( dosnt always need to be and airport, it can be a VOR ex...)
R-Roue (you can say their exit point then as filed if the route is correct, otherwise you need to read the full ammendment.)
A-Altitude( The intial altitude and crusing altitude.) (keep in mind of US  direction rules show at the bottom)
F- Departure Freq
T-Transponder (squawk) code.


JBU1602 IFR KLGA->KBOS MERIT ORW ORW3 FL230

Lets put that flight plan in craft!

C- Boston Logan Airport
R- MERIT ORW ORW3
A LaGuarda initial altitude is 5,000 and cruising is FL230
F  LSO_DEP 120.4
T 1101

Lets give the clearance with CRAFT helping us!!

       Jetblue1602 cleared to the Boston Logan Airport via radar vectors Merit, then as filed. Maintain 5,000 expect FL230 10 mins after departure. Departure on 120.4. Squawk 1102.

     They you go!!!

All planes travling in the US must abideby the altitude laws.

 - Any aircraft going north or East must have a Odd altitude like FL230
 - Any aircraft going South or West must have a even altitude like FL220

How to Remember this

NEODD- the first two letters stand for  NORTH or EAST and then it says odd
SWEVEN- the first two letters stand for SOUTH or WEST and the even.

REPLY FOR ANY ERRORS OR IF I MISSED SOMTHING. You can message me for questions!!!
Salvatore Christopher  Barcia
Cross the Gulf President
ACE Team Member
Miami ARTCC

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Brad Littlejohn

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« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2009, 11:34:17 AM »
A couple of things.

with your above clearance to JBU1602, 'via radar vectors MERIT' gives ambiguity to what the pilot should do after wheels up. Obviously they will be given radar vectors, but what should they do before they receive those radar vectors? they could make any turns they want and be perfectly legal in doing so. Second, 'Departure on' is improper phraseology (see the 7110.65, 3-9-3).

So this clearance, with full CRAFT, using 3-9-3 and 4-3-2, should be:

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]Jetblue 1602, cleared to the Boston Logan airport via runway heading, radar vectors direct MERIT, then as filed. Maintain 5000, expect FL230 10 minutes after departure. Departure frequency 120.4, squawk 1102.[/quote]

BL.

Harold Rutila

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« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2009, 12:32:23 PM »
Quote from: Brad Littlejohn
A couple of things.

with your above clearance to JBU1602, 'via radar vectors MERIT' gives ambiguity to what the pilot should do after wheels up. Obviously they will be given radar vectors, but what should they do before they receive those radar vectors? they could make any turns they want and be perfectly legal in doing so. Second, 'Departure on' is improper phraseology (see the 7110.65, 3-9-3).

So this clearance, with full CRAFT, using 3-9-3 and 4-3-2, should be:



BL.

I really have never heard this anywhere on LiveATC or at my home airport, which has no DPs. Since most ATCTs assign headings in the takeoff clearance, the pilot could not deviate from that heading until advised (or for an emergency). I suppose the above clearance you provided would be given only at towers which do not assign headings in the takeoff clearance. Isn't this correct?

Brad Littlejohn

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« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2009, 01:04:50 PM »
Quote from: Harold Rutila
I really have never heard this anywhere on LiveATC or at my home airport, which has no DPs. Since most ATCTs assign headings in the takeoff clearance, the pilot could not deviate from that heading until advised (or for an emergency). I suppose the above clearance you provided would be given only at towers which do not assign headings in the takeoff clearance. Isn't this correct?

You're correct here, Harold. the point I was making was that if no heading was given, as per the OP's clearance, the pilot have the ambiguity of what to do in between his aircraft getting wheels up and receiving the first radar vector. there would be nothing stopping him/her from doing a complete 360 before receiving that first vector. So the ambiguity needs to be handled, which 4-3-2.c.1.c handles:

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]c. At all other airports- Do not specify direction of takeoff/turn after takeoff. If necessary to specify an initial heading/azimuth to be flown after takeoff, issue the initial heading/azimuth so as to apply only within controlled airspace.[/quote]

So ATCTs can assign headings in the takeoff clearance; for the example, I used runway heading. It would be better (and IMHO, beneficial) to assign the heading in the clearance than send them up without one and let the departure controller handle it.

BL.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2009, 01:05:19 PM by Brad Littlejohn »

Bruce Clingan

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« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2009, 07:50:42 PM »
Brad,

One question, and I think that this topic has been debated before but, you give the instruction "maintain 5000".  How can an aircraft maintain 5000 when they are currently on the ground, don't they have to get there.  I wouldn't give that instruction like that as a radar controller it wouldn't make any sense.

Just wondering.
Bruce W. Clingan
vZID Air Traffic Manager

"Facts are stubborn things." Ronald Reagan
               
               

Dan Everette

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« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2009, 05:22:43 AM »
Quote from: Brad Littlejohn
You're correct here, Harold. the point I was making was that if no heading was given, as per the OP's clearance, the pilot have the ambiguity of what to do in between his aircraft getting wheels up and receiving the first radar vector. there would be nothing stopping him/her from doing a complete 360 before receiving that first vector. So the ambiguity needs to be handled, which 4-3-2.c.1.c handles:

There is no ambiguity which needs to be handled. 4-3-2.c.1.c doesn't apply to LGA (unless we're talking about a different LGA which isn't controlled and outside the Class E surface area) c.1.a would apply in this case, and it wouldn't be necessary in the initial clearance as the heading would be assigned by local.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2009, 05:42:32 AM by Dan Everette »

Justin A. Martin

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« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2009, 07:08:33 AM »
Quote from: Bruce W. Clingan
Brad,

One question, and I think that this topic has been debated before but, you give the instruction "maintain 5000".  How can an aircraft maintain 5000 when they are currently on the ground, don't they have to get there.  I wouldn't give that instruction like that as a radar controller it wouldn't make any sense.

Just wondering.

This is an interesting topic. From what I teach and from what I've always done, the correct phraseology would be, "maintain 5000" and NOT "climb and maintain 5000". Here's the reason: let's say you are departing an airport that has a pretty complex SID. You were cleared via the SID, and told to maintain, let's say, 10000. If you tell the aircraft to climb and maintain 10000, it cancels the altitudes on the SID... the aircraft does not need to comply with restrictions. If you said maintain 10000 in the clearance, he will climb and meet restrictions until he reaches 10000. Now, seeing how I've never really had to deal with SIDs like that, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that if you tell an aircraft to "climb and maintain" as a DEP controller and you still need them to meet restrictions, you need to say so specifically.

Hopefully that makes sense and I was at least in the ballpark with my answer...  

JM

Harold Rutila

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« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2009, 08:44:27 AM »
Quote from: Justin A. Martin
This is an interesting topic. From what I teach and from what I've always done, the correct phraseology would be, "maintain 5000" and NOT "climb and maintain 5000". Here's the reason: let's say you are departing an airport that has a pretty complex SID. You were cleared via the SID, and told to maintain, let's say, 10000. If you tell the aircraft to climb and maintain 10000, it cancels the altitudes on the SID... the aircraft does not need to comply with restrictions. If you said maintain 10000 in the clearance, he will climb and meet restrictions until he reaches 10000. Now, seeing how I've never really had to deal with SIDs like that, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that if you tell an aircraft to "climb and maintain" as a DEP controller and you still need them to meet restrictions, you need to say so specifically.

Hopefully that makes sense and I was at least in the ballpark with my answer...  

JM

Additionally, this is what is written in the .65, so that's what I've always taught as well.

Edit: Oh, and Brad, thanks for the explanation. Makes sense!
« Last Edit: July 16, 2009, 08:45:58 AM by Harold Rutila »

Bruce Clingan

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« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2009, 09:07:25 AM »
Can you give me a reference in the .65 to back your statements.  Also the original example was a radar vectored departure therefore you aren't canceling out any SID instructions.  There was no departure plate to provide further instructions to the pilot.
Bruce W. Clingan
vZID Air Traffic Manager

"Facts are stubborn things." Ronald Reagan
               
               

Justin A. Martin

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« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2009, 10:55:41 AM »
Bruce,

I'm finding the reference now. The reason I teach it this way is simply because it's a good habit to get into. I've always been taught this way, and this is the way I generally hear it in the real-world.

JM

Justin A. Martin

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« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2009, 11:01:23 AM »
Try 4-3-4 Departure Procedures. Even in the clearance delivery portion, all of the examples say "maintain", NOT "climb and maintain".

One example given is:
Quote
Cleared to Reynolds Airport; David Two RNAV Departure, Kingham Transition; then, as filed. Maintain niner thousand. Expect flight level four one zero, one zero minutes after departure.

Another:
Quote
Cleared to Reynolds Airport via Victor Ninety‐one Albany, then as filed. Maintain six thousand.

And finally:
Quote
Cleared to Missoula International Airport, Chief Two
Departure to Angley; direct Salina; then as filed; maintain
one seven thousand.
JM
« Last Edit: July 16, 2009, 11:06:02 AM by Justin A. Martin »

Brad Littlejohn

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« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2009, 11:37:49 AM »
Quote from: Bruce W. Clingan
Brad,

One question, and I think that this topic has been debated before but, you give the instruction "maintain 5000".  How can an aircraft maintain 5000 when they are currently on the ground, don't they have to get there.  I wouldn't give that instruction like that as a radar controller it wouldn't make any sense.

Just wondering.

Bruce,

Have a look at 4-3-3.4.d:

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]d. When no changes are required in the filed route, state the phrase: “Cleared to (destination) airport, (SID and SIDtransition, as appropriate); then, as filed.” If a SID is not assigned, follow with “As filed.” Specify the assigned altitude; and, if required, add any additional instructions or information, including final requested altitude if different than assigned
except if Pre-Departure Clearance (PDC) is utilized.

PHRASEOLOGY
CLEARED TO (destination) AIRPORT; and as appropriate,
(SID name and number) DEPARTURE, THEN AS FILED. MAINTAIN (altitude); (additional instructions or information).

If a SID is not assigned,
CLEARED TO (destination) AIRPORT AS FILED. MAINTAIN (altitude); and if required, (additional instructions or information).

EXAMPLE-
“Cleared to Reynolds Airport; David Two RNAV Departure, Kingham Transition; then, as filed. Maintain niner thousand. Expect flight level four one zero, one zero minutes after departure.”[/quote]

Note 'maintain', not 'climb and maintain'. If you filed something like the COWBY2  departure out of KLAS, if you included 'climb and maintain 10000' in your clearance, not only have you killed the crossing restrictions at ROPPR, CEASR, NAPSE, and BAKRR, but you've also canceled the initial altitude depicted in the chart description, which is FL190. If you said 'climb and maintain FL190 in the clearance', you've then voided all of the crossing restrictions on the SID, in the clearance delivery. Using 'maintain' eliminates that confusion.

BL.

Alan Hensley

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« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2009, 02:24:31 PM »
Quote from: Brad Littlejohn
A couple of things.

with your above clearance to JBU1602, 'via radar vectors MERIT' gives ambiguity to what the pilot should do after wheels up. Obviously they will be given radar vectors, but what should they do before they receive those radar vectors? they could make any turns they want and be perfectly legal in doing so. Second, 'Departure on' is improper phraseology (see the 7110.65, 3-9-3).

So this clearance, with full CRAFT, using 3-9-3 and 4-3-2, should be:



BL.


Sorry on this one BL but in the course of my career I can not tell you how many times I said "radar vectors (fix)" in a clearance, leaving out the word direct.  I do not think adding the word 'direct" to this clearance is necessary.  Nor did the Academy and my facilities.  We both know as the radar controller, as soon as we're able we are gonna give him direct.  Besides, those of us (including yourself I believe) who have worked RW radar know that he is not going to make some crazy turns.  He was told radar vectors Merit and that is what he is going to expect.  On VATSIM, yeah I would tend to say they might do as you suggest, lol.  Also on VATSIM, after hearing how a lot of clearances are being given, I would be tickled to hear a clearance given as he did in the example he gave.  Also "departure frequency will be" was the way we were taught in Ok City.  But again, I am not going to harp at a student for leaving the words "will be" out.  There are more important things on VATSIM that need to be taught, e.g. reading METARS correctly would be near the top of the list.  And ON and On.

"The thing I hate about an argument is that it always interrupts a discussion."

--G.K. Chesterton

Zach Lam

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« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2009, 11:39:57 AM »
Quote from: Salvatore Barcia
Here is a line that will help your Clearance be in order, and correct.


Craft

C- Clearance( dosnt always need to be and airport, it can be a VOR ex...)
R-Roue (you can say their exit point then as filed if the route is correct, otherwise you need to read the full ammendment.)
A-Altitude( The intial altitude and crusing altitude.) (keep in mind of US  direction rules show at the bottom)
F- Departure Freq
T-Transponder (squawk) code.


JBU1602 IFR KLGA->KBOS MERIT ORW ORW3 FL230

Lets put that flight plan in craft!

C- Boston Logan Airport
R- MERIT ORW ORW3
A LaGuarda initial altitude is 5,000 and cruising is FL230
F  LSO_DEP 120.4
T 1101

Lets give the clearance with CRAFT helping us!!
Jetblue1602 cleared to the Boston Logan Airport via radar vectors Merit, then as filed. Maintain 5,000 expect FL230 10 mins after departure. Departure on120.4. Squawk 1102.


Well I was a Laguardia Controller at ZNY and it was

Jetblue1602 cleared to the Boston Logan Airport  radar vectors Merit, then as filed. Maintain 5,000 expect FL230 10 mins after departure. Departure freq 120.4. Squawk 1102.

no "via"
« Last Edit: November 05, 2009, 11:42:04 AM by Zach Lam »
Zach Lam

Jonah Zieske

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« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2010, 02:48:37 PM »
Guys, Sal was trying to help.  post some helpful information for the new guys.  

1.  "Maintain" or "Climb and maintain"?  I've always been taught "Maintain".  If you were taught something different, so be it.  Let's not get our panties in a wad over this.
2.  "no 'via'" does it REALLY make a difference?

This is getting waaaayyyy out of proportiion.

Something that does irk me, though, is the difference from "then as filed" and "as filed."  If you make one or more amendments to the flight plan, such as changing "SAV" to "McCoy9 SAV" it should read:

JBU321 SAV RDU BAL, MCO-BWI, FL330

JBU321, Orlando clearance, cleared to the Baltimore Washington Int'l airport via the McCoy nine departure, Savanah transition, THEN AS FILED, maintain 5000 expect flight level 330 in 10, departure on 125.95, squawk 1704.

If you do not make an amendment, it should read:

JBU321, orlando clearance, cleared to the Baltimore Washington Int'l airport via radar vectors savanah, AS FILED. Maintain 5000 expect flight level 330 in 10, departure on 125.95, squawk 1704.

Just something that I look for in my students.  It just irritates me.  We all have our pet peves, so we just all need to live with them, eh?

Good job, though, Sal. Good information.
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