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Ira Robinson

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« Reply #135 on: February 12, 2010, 02:38:01 PM »
Quote from: Richard Jenkins
Nine years of VATSIM and VATEUD has had 3 directors. I wonder what the difference is...

Maybe we shouldn't have to wonder. Maybe we should find out. Seriously, if somthing is working somewhere then why isn't it working somewhere else?  Pesonalities, politics, management styles, administrative structure, what??

Something is obviously different. Why not try and figure out what it is instead of just saying, "well it works there so how bad can it be?"
« Last Edit: February 12, 2010, 02:39:03 PM by Ira Robinson »
Ira Robinson

Richard Jenkins

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« Reply #136 on: February 12, 2010, 04:18:34 PM »
Quote from: Ira Robinson
Maybe we shouldn't have to wonder. Maybe we should find out. Seriously, if somthing is working somewhere then why isn't it working somewhere else?  Pesonalities, politics, management styles, administrative structure, what??

Something is obviously different. Why not try and figure out what it is instead of just saying, "well it works there so how bad can it be?"


I didn't think it was necessary to state the obvious.....

Bryan Wollenberg

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« Reply #137 on: February 12, 2010, 04:28:22 PM »
Ira,

Unfortunately, the number of Directors in Europe doesn't really reflect at all how things have gone over on their side of the world.  It says they keep their Directors, but I assure you that they have had their share of turmoil.  Now if you want to look at a good system, I'm personally fond of the VATPAC guys.  They have a very good thing going over there.
Bryan Wollenberg
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Ira Robinson

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« Reply #138 on: February 12, 2010, 05:01:58 PM »
Quote from: Richard Jenkins
I didn't think it was necessary to state the obvious.....

My apologies for misreading your intentions and frankly I am actually glad to hear that I did.  Nice to see someone use a little sarcasm in a positive way every now and again.

It's pretty hard around here sometimes to read between the lines and since I am pretty new to this discussion I clearly missed one here.  

Unfortunately the only other reply to date does exactly what I though you were doing; addressing something other than the issue at hand by suggesting that there maybe a better place to look for the answer.   Like I said, it must be me, being the new guy and all. Maybe the next response will actually address the question.

Ira
Ira Robinson

Tom Seeley

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« Reply #139 on: February 12, 2010, 06:07:50 PM »
Man, I've stayed out of this up to now, but everyone has a limit.

Well said, Ira.

VATUSA clearly has a problem keeping directors. After six pages of thread, why are we still speaking in analogies and veiled references, and not actually focusing on and addressing the problem? If VATEUR doesn't have the same problem, WHY? If VATPAC has a better system or program or policy, WHAT IS IT?

How about leaving the cute one-liners and metaphors behind, and devote some energy to fixing the problem? That might mean taking ownership of it too. And that takes guts.
Tom Seeley
Deputy Director (Retired), VATUSA

Alex Bailey

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« Reply #140 on: February 12, 2010, 06:32:49 PM »
Fact of the matter is, some regions do better with people management and working WITH their staff rather than against them. When I had the privilege of negotiating the oceanic agreements with Oceania, Terry clearly had an excellent relationship going with his staff in the region. There was a bond between them and they worked together for the common good.

I have countless records of VATSIM doing the complete opposite with VATUSA. Not once did I ever see anyone above Bryan trying to work with us to solve problems. Bryan gets the short end of the stick in some of the comments coming from people, but he did an excellent job working with me when I was Director. As Andrew said, we were only told what we couldn't do and the only time there was any communication was after an "oh s***" event when the seagulls flew in.

Mike Hodge will have to refresh my memory, but how many emails did we send "up" regarding the behavioral issues we were encountering and how many did we get back?

I have a BoG member on record stating that ATMs have no authority and therefore serve at the whim of VATSIM. I have the same BoG member on record calling Jason Vodnansky a "crap ATM". I have the President of VATSIM threatening ME because an ATM removed a controller from an ARTCC and that controller decided to complain to the BoG after I gave him a solution to the situation. I had no idea he chose to ignore my email (which was his reinstatement to that ARTCC if he wanted it) and go to the BoG, but Mr. Klain so kindly requested information by stating "Bailey better provide some answers or he may find himself out of a job in 3 days" (something to that effect). That sure is a great way to motivate your staff and create a positive working relationship.

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]The story I heard is that they are better at asking forgiveness. For their recent VATSIM sins they had to repeat the COR 4 times, the GRP 3 times, and Visiting Controllers 2 times.  [/quote]

So Ron, what is a "VATSIM sin" and why is it a laughing matter? It appears that the problems happening over there were due to lack of oversight from both EC and BoG. Policies don't continue to be broken when people actually care to provide guidance to their staff.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2010, 06:34:37 PM by Alex Bailey »

Bryan Wollenberg

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« Reply #141 on: February 12, 2010, 07:16:55 PM »
Guys,

Although this thread has gotten wildly out-of-control, off-topic, and should have been locked a long time ago, there was a bit of hope on one of the pages, in which somewhat-productive discussion was actually taking place.  Imagine that.  I highly suggest it remain that way, we start acting like adults, and carry on polite and respectful discussion that might actually help the Division.  Arguing and bickering is not going to get us anywhere, and in fact will not be allowed to continue.  Fair enough?
Bryan Wollenberg
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Andrew Wolcott

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« Reply #142 on: February 12, 2010, 07:20:20 PM »
Quote from: Dave Klain
...a bunch of teenagers running around being idiots,...


Pardon me Gov'na, but it isn't necessarily just teenagers running around being idiots on VATSIM. Some of the older aged demographic are quite guilty of indulging in tomfoolery in kind.  

None the less, I find this thread to be quite intriguing. It's amazing that some of the same issues being brought up here that are claimed to happen on the VATSIM level actually occur on the ARTCC level as well.

Things that make you go "Hmmm."

Good day gentlemen, and I do hope things can be sorted through amicably. What I want to know now is this, would VATSIM be interested in having adverts run in FBO Chains such as Landmark on countertop video screens? EDIT: Just realized the video on our website is not working for some reason. Anyway, we have it on youtube Spotpoint Media Video (http://www.spotpointmedia.com)

PM if interested.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2010, 07:31:19 PM by Andrew Wolcott »
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Michael Hodge Jr

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« Reply #143 on: February 12, 2010, 09:37:39 PM »
Quote from: Alex Bailey
Mike Hodge will have to refresh my memory, but how many emails did we send "up" regarding the behavioral issues we were encountering and how many did we get back?

We sent plenty, got none back. The saddest part was that we actually didn't expect anything back. However, even I am guilty of not answering e-mails, so in that sense, i'm not complaining.

David Klain

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« Reply #144 on: February 12, 2010, 11:15:03 PM »
Andrew, I believe you are taking that quote out of context.  The reference to teenagers running around being idiots was a reference to my earlier mention of a place like the Microsoft Gaming Zone...and yes you are correct, not all teenagers run around being idiots and not all idiots are teenagers...but neither of those was a point my post was making.

As far as the marketing issue, please contact me via email to discuss.

all the best,
Dave
Dave Klain
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Anthony Baker

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« Reply #145 on: February 13, 2010, 10:33:21 AM »
wow...... all i have to say is wow...

it is amazing how when people get power they forget about the people that they were.


I joined vatsim in oct '08

I have seen more bull in the past two years then i have ever seen in my life

First off in late 08' I ran into some issues  I sent emails from vatusa1- BOG and guess what the basic response i got was....( as i infer it) Sry, not our problem we don't care what our artccs do...

I have seen what like 3 VATUSA directors resign already...

Please stop bickering like children  and Answer the Main questions

1. Why is this Happening @ VATUSA and is not EVIDENT ANYWHERE ELSE?
2. Why is it so hard to get answers?

3. Why do newly transfered students that are certified on the position have to wait so long just to get a "checkout" on a position?
4. Ladies,Gentelemnt, Governors, Have you and I mean you EVER READ the FOUNDERS LETTER? Seems like the founders post it, yet the "man" ignores it
5. Can the staff please be consitent? I'm pretty sure theres a policy on how to make a policy to make a policy.
6. It is impossible to get anything done because you ahve to get approval from person A who needs approval from person B who needs approval from the DD who needs approval from the RD etc.

Finally

All Staff: Stop the politics! I think IL is less messed-up then some of the staff in vatsim.. What is the goal of VATSIM Again? Or did the staff forget about that already?

You were all S-1s and S-3s.... Don't forget who you were! This is not about who gets the most glory, or who gets the the position, this is about THE CONTROLLERS so STOP THE POLITICS Don't we all want more people online so we can get on the scopes? Well then stop the politics and fix the problem

RW Connection: I have a local football league and there are some coaches that are plan A****** as my dad says for football. This is about the kids, not politics
(This is about John Doe whos an OBS os ARTCC X who isn't getting training, this (VATSIM) is not about POLITICS

.02 from a Students View
« Last Edit: February 13, 2010, 10:47:08 AM by Anthony Baker »
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« Reply #146 on: February 13, 2010, 11:15:26 AM »
Quote from: Anthony Baker
I have seen more bull in the past two years then i have ever seen in my life

First off in late 08' I ran into some issues  I sent emails from vatusa1- BOG and guess what the basic response i got was....( as i infer it) Sry, not our problem we don't care what our artccs do...
FROM VATUSA1 - BOG?! would you mind elaborating on this?

Quote from: Anthony Baker
Please stop bickering like children  and Answer the Main questions

1. Why is this Happening @ VATUSA and is not EVIDENT ANYWHERE ELSE?
2. Why is it so hard to get answers?

3. Why do newly transfered students that are certified on the position have to wait so long just to get a "checkout" on a position?
bickering? aren't you bickering as well?  .

I think your question #3 is ARTCC specific. I.E. @ ZAU, you need to schedule a training slot with the instructors for a "checkout".

Quote from: Anthony Baker
5. Can the staff please be consitent? I'm pretty sure theres a policy on how to make a policy to make a policy.
What do you mean by "consitent"? Policies? Decisions? Who the staff is?

If it's who they are, Anthony, you need to realize that staffs can't be consistent. People come and go. VATSIM is a HOBBY, NOT A JOB. There's really no real-world benefits from this. You could see many resignations if people got bored of VATSIM (no offense to it). There's really no way to have a consistency in the staff members.

Quote from: Anthony Baker
6. It is impossible to get anything done because you ahve to get approval from person A who needs approval from person B who needs approval from the DD who needs approval from the RD etc.
And what would these "get anything done" things be?
[img]http://online.vatsimindicators.net/1100720/7664.png\" border=\"0\" class=\"linked-sig-image\" /]

Harold Rutila

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« Reply #147 on: February 13, 2010, 12:12:27 PM »
Quote from: Anthony Baker
wow...... all i have to say is wow...
I have seen more bull in the past two years then i have ever seen in my life
If you're equating "bull" to legitimate policy discussion, you're wrong. Policy can be discussed, staff members can reply, and people can still be unhappy. That doesn't make it "bull."

Quote from: Anthony Baker
First off in late 08' I ran into some issues  I sent emails from vatusa1- BOG and guess what the basic response i got was....( as i infer it) Sry, not our problem we don't care what our artccs do...

I have seen what like 3 VATUSA directors resign already...
1. Why is this Happening @ VATUSA and is not EVIDENT ANYWHERE ELSE?
You need to go through the proper channels to get your issues resolved. Most of the time that does not involve going straight to VATUSA1 nor the BoG. It's unlikely that the above was the response. They probably just said the same thing I did.

Since when is resignation such a horrible thing? Do you want us to pay these people? People get worn down, and that's when a resignation happens. Someone else comes in, and the cycle continues. Other divisions probably don't have as many resignations because the people in them aren't as easily worn down. Not to say that the jobs are any more or less difficult, but it's just a basic part of bureaucracy.

Quote from: Anthony Baker

2. Why is it so hard to get answers?
It's not. You have three senior staff members available to talk to, either via e-mail or in Teamspeak or something like it. There's the VATUSA Forums, the VATSIM Forums, the VATUSA help desk, and many VATUSA staff members if none of the aforementioned channels resolve your issue.

Quote from: Anthony Baker
3. Why do newly transfered students that are certified on the position have to wait so long just to get a "checkout" on a position?
That's an ARTCC problem, and most of the time it has to do with short staffing. Again, we can't pay instructors and mentors, so you have to wait for whomever is available. That's how its been for almost a decade.

Quote from: Anthony Baker
4. Ladies,Gentelemnt, Governors, Have you and I mean you EVER READ the FOUNDERS LETTER? Seems like the founders post it, yet the "man" ignores it
Elaborate, please? If you're referring to DK, I've seen nothing less than compliance by Dave with the Founders' vision as outlined in their letter, especially in the VATSIM Forums where many propsitions emerge that contradict it.

Quote from: Anthony Baker
5. Can the staff please be consitent? I'm pretty sure theres a policy on how to make a policy to make a policy.
What??

Quote from: Anthony Baker
6. It is impossible to get anything done because you ahve to get approval from person A who needs approval from person B who needs approval from the DD who needs approval from the RD etc.
That's in terms of VATUSA policy, not individual ARTCC policy. The main thing that really affects you as a student is ARTCC policy, which has a much quicker implementation process than one might think, as long as the ARTCC staff is competent and efficient.

Quote from: Anthony Baker
All Staff: Stop the politics! I think IL is less messed-up then some of the staff in vatsim.. What is the goal of VATSIM Again? Or did the staff forget about that already?
No, I'm pretty sure Illinois has had more political conflict than the staff in VATSIM. There could be no VATSIM without politics, because many people have different view on how something like this could be run.

Quote from: Anthony Baker
You were all S-1s and S-3s.... Don't forget who you were! This is not about who gets the most glory, or who gets the the position, this is about THE CONTROLLERS so STOP THE POLITICS Don't we all want more people online so we can get on the scopes? Well then stop the politics and fix the problem
What's the problem to which you keep referring?

Quote from: Anthony Baker
RW Connection: I have a local football league and there are some coaches that are plan A****** as my dad says for football. This is about the kids, not politics
(This is about John Doe whos an OBS os ARTCC X who isn't getting training, this (VATSIM) is not about POLITICS
Having coaches who come across as rude is not politics -- that's their style of team management. If John Doe isn't getting training, then he has many avenues to pursue in getting that training.

Ryan Geckler

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« Reply #148 on: February 13, 2010, 02:51:53 PM »
Here's all I'm going to say on this topic...

If you feel that people haven't been getting the job done, then step up yourself and take the job. All I see is a bunch of people that just bicker to bicker and no one wants to step up and and give a solution which may or may not work.
Ryan Geckler - GK
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Bruce Clingan

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« Reply #149 on: February 13, 2010, 06:58:24 PM »
Quote from: Ryan Geckler
Here's all I'm going to say on this topic...

If you feel that people haven't been getting the job done, then step up yourself and take the job. All I see is a bunch of people that just bicker to bicker and no one wants to step up and and give a solution which may or may not work.

For all we know there could be people participating in this thread who have made application at the BOD/BOD level and have not been given the chance.  Sometimes it is not a matter of stepping up but a matter of being let in.
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"Facts are stubborn things." Ronald Reagan