Where to find the vZTL .sct2 Files

Stephan Faessler · « **on:** August 03, 2011, 11:42:37 AM »

hi all, as the title says where could i possibly find those files for VRC?
its not available on their site unfortunately.
thanks much

Tom Seeley · « **Reply #1 on:** August 06, 2011, 05:33:37 AM »

The sector files are available after you join and are able to log in to their website.

Justin A. Martin · « **Reply #2 on:** August 16, 2011, 09:45:28 AM »

Tom,

IIRC, wasn't there a VATUSA enforced rule made a few years back that required all ARTCCs to include all vital ARTCC information (i.e. SOPs, LOAs, Sector files, etc) accessible to the public? I may want to view a sector file of an ARTCC without necessarily joining that ARTCC, why can't I? The other issue is visiting controllers/transfers almost always wish to view the sector file and what an ARTCC has to offer prior to placing the request. To me it seems every ARTCC should make sector files, etc, public information.

JM

J Jason Vodnansky · « **Reply #3 on:** August 16, 2011, 08:15:51 PM »

Quote from: Justin A. Martin

Tom,

IIRC, wasn't there a VATUSA enforced rule made a few years back that required all ARTCCs to include all vital ARTCC information (i.e. SOPs, LOAs, Sector files, etc) accessible to the public? I may want to view a sector file of an ARTCC without necessarily joining that ARTCC, why can't I? The other issue is visiting controllers/transfers almost always wish to view the sector file and what an ARTCC has to offer prior to placing the request. To me it seems every ARTCC should make sector files, etc, public information.

JM

Because this is VATSIM, where we don't have "flavors of the day" we have "rules of the day". They change daily based on who you talk to, especially when those people tasked with enforcement either don't enforce the written rules, or have their hands tied so much by those above that they (the enforcers) are UNABLE to do their jobs. This is just a symptom of a MUCH bigger problem with VATSIM.

Justin, we agree! Imagine that!! :-)

It has been stated though that ZTL has their files locked down as a result of a "deal with the FAA".

I was asked to ask the following...

When did the founders' give ZTL the power to negotiate on VATSIM's behalf?

Adam Wolken · « **Reply #4 on:** August 17, 2011, 12:33:21 AM »

Quote from: J. Jason Vodnansky

Because this is VATSIM, where we don't have "flavors of the day" we have "rules of the day". They change daily based on who you talk to, especially when those people tasked with enforcement either don't enforce the written rules, or have their hands tied so much by those above that they (the enforcers) are UNABLE to do their jobs. This is just a symptom of a MUCH bigger problem with VATSIM.

Justin, we agree! Imagine that!! :-)

It has been stated though that ZTL has their files locked down as a result of a "deal with the FAA".

I was asked to ask the following...

When did the founders' give ZTL the power to negotiate on VATSIM's behalf?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yunSRfnsVck

trolololololololol

Tom Seeley · « **Reply #5 on:** August 17, 2011, 05:20:44 AM »

Justin I can't disagree.

Gary Morris · « **Reply #6 on:** August 17, 2011, 12:23:02 PM »

You are correct. One of our previous Facility Engineer worked for the FAA and was granted access to all SOP's, LOA's, Sector Files etc. and allowed to visit ATL, A80 and ZTL en-route. However, the FAA stated that we MUST only allow members of the vZTL ARTCC access to the files. I don't understand why, as anyone can join our ARTCC, copy the files and then leave, but we try to follow their rules as much as possible. After all, the FAA could squash us like a bug if we didn't...

Of course, there is nothing in our agreement with them about asking for the files from a member of the ARTCC... need I say more?

Ohh and just to add... I personally do not agree with the agreement... however I was not DATM at the time it was made

Richard Jenkins · « **Reply #7 on:** August 17, 2011, 03:05:47 PM »

Quote from: Gary Morris

You are correct. One of our previous Facility Engineer worked for the FAA and was granted access to all SOP's, LOA's, Sector Files etc. and allowed to visit ATL, A80 and ZTL en-route. However, the FAA stated that we MUST only allow members of the vZTL ARTCC access to the files. I don't understand why, as anyone can join our ARTCC, copy the files and then leave, but we try to follow their rules as much as possible. After all, the FAA could squash us like a bug if we didn't...

Of course, there is nothing in our agreement with them about asking for the files from a member of the ARTCC... need I say more?

Ohh and just to add... I personally do not agree with the agreement... however I was not DATM at the time it was made

So who is the person that wrote the check my arse might have to cash?

Richard Jenkins

Harold Rutila · « **Reply #8 on:** August 17, 2011, 04:21:28 PM »

Here's the thing...

If you work for the FAA, you're not supposed to be freely giving out this information. And if you give out the information, you shouldn't be telling a bunch of people you did so. The Freedom of Information Act is the only legal way to get sector file, SOP, and LOA updating accomplished. Because once the information is released under FOIA, it can be disseminated to anyone. So, either people have to keep it quiet (you can't have people going to visit ZTL saying, "Yeah, one of your guys works for us and gave us all your info,") or you have to go through FOIA, which usually doesn't take more than a month or two.

As to whether or not you could get in legal trouble for it, that'd be a tough sell. If anything could happen, the person who disseminated the information could get fired. All of the information you have could be obtained under FOIA, and the real legal issue stems from the fact that you didn't use FOIA to get the same information.

Much greater clarification is needed on this and a number of other topics for ARTCC administrators. And because those roles change so frequently, getting it written down in an easily-accessible document or something would be a great help.

Richard Jenkins · « **Reply #9 on:** August 17, 2011, 05:28:24 PM »

Quote from: Harold Rutila

Here's the thing...

If you work for the FAA, you're not supposed to be freely giving out this information. And if you give out the information, you shouldn't be telling a bunch of people you did so. The Freedom of Information Act is the only legal way to get sector file, SOP, and LOA updating accomplished. Because once the information is released under FOIA, it can be disseminated to anyone. So, either people have to keep it quiet (you can't have people going to visit ZTL saying, "Yeah, one of your guys works for us and gave us all your info,") or you have to go through FOIA, which usually doesn't take more than a month or two.

As to whether or not you could get in legal trouble for it, that'd be a tough sell. If anything could happen, the person who disseminated the information could get fired. All of the information you have could be obtained under FOIA, and the real legal issue stems from the fact that you didn't use FOIA to get the same information.

Much greater clarification is needed on this and a number of other topics for ARTCC administrators. And because those roles change so frequently, getting it written down in an easily-accessible document or something would be a great help.

Exactly....

FOIA is your friend and keeps your friends out of trouble. Anyone remember Fairfax O'Reilly?

People need to understand talking friends at the FAA into sharing things can put their careers in jeopardy and cause further problems with VATSIM. There is good attention from the FAA and bad attention from the FAA. We prefer the good attention. The last thing we want is for the FAA to take a big negative interest in VATSIM and start poking around, firing off nasty grams to Marinakis. We've been on the receiving end of these before and it isn't fun. Because the reality of it goes this way, when push comes to shove with the government or law firms, we'll throw you under the bus. I know it sounds incredibly heartless but if you have done something wrong, we won't risk the entirety of vatsim to save you.

RJ

Kyle Chalk · « **Reply #10 on:** August 17, 2011, 06:03:12 PM »

Ok before this get blown out of proportion Gary is partially incorrect because not all the fact have been given to him I figured he’s predecessor would at least given him the heads up, all of our RW info (doc’s sop’s loa’s etc) has been obtained via the FOIA and at the request of our former TA and AFE is was asked to be keep under lock and key, although it was obtained via the FOIA the material contains sensitive information. It was also mention that there was a VATUSA policy or rule, if there is I wish it was properly shown, so where abouts' it can be found easily because I can’t find anything. If there is one I’ll stand correct and a quick change will be done to our website (No biggie), but if there isn’t we will continue to operation as we have been before, until we are told otherwise by a higher power(VATUSA HQ etc). Like Gary said before there is nothing stopping any controller from requesting VC status and obtaining the files he or she wishes.

Harold Rutila · « **Reply #11 on:** August 17, 2011, 11:04:59 PM »

Quote from: Kyle Chalk

... has been obtained via the FOIA and at the request of our former TA and AFE is was asked to be keep under lock and key, although it was obtained via the FOIA the material contains sensitive information.

FOIA releases don't contain material that, in the view of FOIA, could compromise national security. Certain documents that do compromise national security are kept under lock and key, FOIA request or not. If you get a FOIA request granted, you can freely release that material to anyone. Major news organizations do this weekly. It's not really your problem if, after being on the receiving end of FOIA, you are asked to remove materials released through it. Someone's throwing a hissy fit that they can't legally do anything about.

SOPs that I've requested have certain elements blacked out, such as the hotline frequency to the TRACON and individual phone line extensions for en-route positions. That, obviously, is sensitive material.

The display of sector files was covered in a rule at one point, but I don't know where to find it now.

Bob Carmona · « **Reply #12 on:** August 17, 2011, 11:39:10 PM »

Many ARTCC's have real video maps in their sector files. Been that way for years. If the FAA was uptight about it there would have been issues a long time ago.

For those ARTCC's that have them, congrats. It makes it that much more fun. For those that don't, keep striving to get them. They are well worth the effort.

Andrew Wolcott · « **Reply #13 on:** August 18, 2011, 01:03:46 AM »

To stop this, I was the contact person for ZTL in regards to our FOIA. If any VATSIM founder or member of the BoG wants any questions answered, PM for my phone number and I will explain my correspondence with the folks at the FAA, which include the following:

Facility ATMs
Facility Operations Support Managers
Regional Representatives
NATCA FacReps
FAA Security
FAA Legal Counsel
FOIA Coordinators
FOIA Legal Counsel

The short of it is this. RVM data contains, at times, and dependent on facility, what could be deemed as sensitive information, such as the depiction of Nuclear Power Plants. We agreed to try and identify where this information was, since we have GIS mapping/drawing software and can manipulate the .DGN and .DAT files as they come from the FAA. Upon identifying the labels on the maps, we removed them. To my knowledge we got them all.

Why did we do this? Because we shared with the FAA exactly our purpose for wanting the information. Sometimes our requests were VERY specific, and with the number that we were making, some eyebrows were raised. Thus started a long process (1+ year) to get what we were requesting.

And Harold, you're right, FOIA generally does not contain info that is sensitive in nature. That is because they send it off for redaction. Depending on who is holding the magic marker at the time will determine what gets redacted. They have guidelines, but I have had info redacted, put in another FOIA, and had the previously redacted info show up in the second FOIA. Just depends on who is doing the redacting.

Again, any VATSIM founder or member of the BoG can contact me directly for my telephone number and we can have this conversation verbally.

Other than that, if you weren't involved in the development of sector files at ZTL during the 2009-2010 years, I politely ask that you refrain from making any further comments.

Richard Jenkins · « **Reply #14 on:** August 18, 2011, 11:45:53 AM »

Quote from: Andrew Wolcott

To stop this, I was the contact person for ZTL in regards to our FOIA. If any VATSIM founder or member of the BoG wants any questions answered, PM for my phone number and I will explain my correspondence with the folks at the FAA, which include the following:

Facility ATMs
Facility Operations Support Managers
Regional Representatives
NATCA FacReps
FAA Security
FAA Legal Counsel
FOIA Coordinators
FOIA Legal Counsel

The short of it is this. RVM data contains, at times, and dependent on facility, what could be deemed as sensitive information, such as the depiction of Nuclear Power Plants. We agreed to try and identify where this information was, since we have GIS mapping/drawing software and can manipulate the .DGN and .DAT files as they come from the FAA. Upon identifying the labels on the maps, we removed them. To my knowledge we got them all.

Why did we do this? Because we shared with the FAA exactly our purpose for wanting the information. Sometimes our requests were VERY specific, and with the number that we were making, some eyebrows were raised. Thus started a long process (1+ year) to get what we were requesting.

And Harold, you're right, FOIA generally does not contain info that is sensitive in nature. That is because they send it off for redaction. Depending on who is holding the magic marker at the time will determine what gets redacted. They have guidelines, but I have had info redacted, put in another FOIA, and had the previously redacted info show up in the second FOIA. Just depends on who is doing the redacting.

Again, any VATSIM founder or member of the BoG can contact me directly for my telephone number and we can have this conversation verbally.

Other than that, if you weren't involved in the development of sector files at ZTL during the 2009-2010 years, I politely ask that you refrain from making any further comments.

PM sent....