VATUSA Forums

General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Scott DeWoody on July 02, 2022, 07:30:05 AM

Title: VATUSA sponsored event (1 JUL 22)
Post by: Scott DeWoody on July 02, 2022, 07:30:05 AM
VATUSA's sponsored "Fly American" FNO last night was for the most part (75%) a success with the exception of one of the featured airports (departure) KMIA which was not staffed at all, no GND, TWR, APP, or CTR.  There were over 35 departures out of KMIA with no controllers in site.  We at joinava dot org did our best to promote this event, reaching out to other VA's to join, and they did only to log on at KMIA to no ATC.  It was very disappointing and frankly unacceptable.  The other ARTCC's involved (Jacksonville, and DC) did an outstanding job sequencing the aircraft into Philly, and other airports in the area.  ZMA did staff up after more than half of the aircraft had already departed and into ZJX airspace.  IMHO, this was a management issue and should be addressed.  :o :(

Title: Re: VATUSA sponsored event (1 JUL 22)
Post by: Nolan Danziger on July 02, 2022, 02:06:11 PM
I take it this is your way of offering to pay a salary to ensure that controllers are available?
Title: Re: VATUSA sponsored event (1 JUL 22)
Post by: Daniel Everman on July 02, 2022, 02:08:12 PM
If it was a "management issue and should be addressed" why did you take to this (public) forum instead of sending an email to division/ZMA brass?
Title: Re: VATUSA sponsored event (1 JUL 22)
Post by: Shane O'Neill on July 02, 2022, 03:35:24 PM
JoinAvA was originally planning to have a group flight from PHX to PHL for this Open Mic Night. Everyone was informed and staffing was secured at ZAB. Then, on June 17, JoinAvA requested to change the group flight to be MIA to PHL. I asked ZMA and they said they would not be able to guarantee service for the event. I then informed JoinAvA, and asked if they would like to change the departure airport, but they did not. They knew staffing at MIA would likely not be available, yet they chose to fly it anyway.

I am happy to discuss this further via email. We look forward to working with JoinAvA for future events.
Title: Re: VATUSA sponsored event (1 JUL 22)
Post by: Jacob Boyles on July 02, 2022, 03:47:21 PM
Quote
It was very disappointing and frankly unacceptable.
Wow so unacceptable that people decided to not spend their Friday evening controlling fake planes.
I am so confused why people get burnt out by this, totally not people who act like this, not at all.
Title: Re: VATUSA sponsored event (1 JUL 22)
Post by: Evan Bradley on July 02, 2022, 03:52:39 PM
Everyone was informed and staffing was secured at ZAB.

ZAB was staffed and ready to accommodate, even after the change happened.

Maybe PHX was the better option if you wanted coverage. Not like you could change your origin airport at all. Once you select it days or weeks in advance, it's set in stone and locked in forever.
Title: Re: VATUSA sponsored event (1 JUL 22)
Post by: Daniel Everman on July 02, 2022, 04:16:02 PM
Quote
It was very disappointing and frankly unacceptable.
Wow so unacceptable that people decided to not spend their Friday evening controlling fake planes.
I am so confused why people get burnt out by this, totally not people who act like this, not at all.

Friday evening on a holiday weekend*
Title: Re: VATUSA sponsored event (1 JUL 22)
Post by: Scott DeWoody on July 02, 2022, 06:40:39 PM
If it was a "management issue and should be addressed" why did you take to this (public) forum instead of sending an email to division/ZMA brass?

To be honest, I did the post here to draw attention to this fact because in the past sending feedback to zma have fallen on deaf ears, or blind eyes.  They were there and available, they knew about it and chose not to staff up.  I know this to be true, because I know people that control in Miami.
Title: Re: VATUSA sponsored event (1 JUL 22)
Post by: Jacob Boyles on July 02, 2022, 07:14:36 PM
Quote
To be honest, I did the post here to draw attention to this fact because in the past sending feedback to zma have fallen on deaf ears, or blind eyes.  They were there and available, they knew about it and chose not to staff up.  I know this to be true, because I know people that control in Miami.

And that is perfectly fine. If you believe that people are obligated to staff up for you I'm not sure how to tell you this but you just aren't as important as you think you are.
Title: Re: VATUSA sponsored event (1 JUL 22)
Post by: Scott DeWoody on July 02, 2022, 07:29:25 PM
Quote
To be honest, I did the post here to draw attention to this fact because in the past sending feedback to zma have fallen on deaf ears, or blind eyes.  They were there and available, they knew about it and chose not to staff up.  I know this to be true, because I know people that control in Miami.

And that is perfectly fine. If you believe that people are obligated to staff up for you I'm not sure how to tell you this but you just aren't as important as you think you are.

I don't see anywhere in any of my posts that implies that I believe people are obligated to staff up for "me".  And it was more than just me, there were other American pilots from other VA's, and The Pilot Club.  I would think a VATSIM Staff member would respond more professionally.  I also stated in the OP that MIA did staff up, late, and I praised the other ARTCCs.
Title: Re: VATUSA sponsored event (1 JUL 22)
Post by: Jacob Boyles on July 02, 2022, 07:48:15 PM
Quote
They were there and available, they knew about it and chose not to staff up.

This sounds like insinutating that just because the members were 'available' then they should staff up, which is a very easy way to not get service.

Either way, as Shane said this situation was apparently communicated beforehand, yet was ignored.

Quote
I asked ZMA and they said they would not be able to guarantee service for the event. I then informed JoinAvA, and asked if they would like to change the departure airport, but they did not.
Title: Re: VATUSA sponsored event (1 JUL 22)
Post by: Daniel Everman on July 02, 2022, 10:55:33 PM
To be honest, I did the post here to draw attention to this fact because in the past sending feedback to zma have fallen on deaf ears, or blind eyes.  They were there and available, they knew about it and chose not to staff up.  I know this to be true, because I know people that control in Miami.

So...you posted in a forum browsed mainly by division controllers/staff for all to see about how a facility didn't staff up for you on a holiday weekend, and expected what outcome? To be honest, I don't think this course of action will paint your or your VA in a positive light and encourage people to staff up for you in the future.
Title: Re: VATUSA sponsored event (1 JUL 22)
Post by: Clay Brock on July 03, 2022, 02:13:01 PM
You were notified that staffing wouldn't be guaranteed at MIA because the departure airport changed less than 2 weeks from the event date. Yet here you are, complaining about MIA staffing up later, even though they told you it would be unlikely to begin with. Not a good look man...

If you really think ZMA is out to get you, then just go somewhere else! Imagine that you wanted to buy groceries from a food bank, but they were closed that day due to a lack of volunteers. You could either:
A). Go on another day, or
B). Go to a different location that was open

What you shouldn't do is complain in a open forum about volunteers showing up when they told you it was unlikely anyways. This post is just going to deter more facilities from staffing up for your events because they know you will trash them in public.
Title: Re: VATUSA sponsored event (1 JUL 22)
Post by: Shane VanHoven on July 03, 2022, 03:13:15 PM
Well one things for sure. Next time I see a request from Scott to staff up, I’m not making an effort the be there.   ;)
Title: Re: VATUSA sponsored event (1 JUL 22)
Post by: Scott DeWoody on July 04, 2022, 11:59:24 AM
Quote
They were there and available, they knew about it and chose not to staff up.

This sounds like insinutating that just because the members were 'available' then they should staff up, which is a very easy way to not get service.

Either way, as Shane said this situation was apparently communicated beforehand, yet was ignored.

Quote
I asked ZMA and they said they would not be able to guarantee service for the event. I then informed JoinAvA, and asked if they would like to change the departure airport, but they did not.

The situation was NOT ignored, it was communicated that PHX-PHL would have been too long of a flight for most, therefore, we listed MIA as an origin.  And to all that are "bashing" me on this, this was NOT, I repeat NOT, a joinava event, it was a VATSUA event.
Title: Re: VATUSA sponsored event (1 JUL 22)
Post by: Scott DeWoody on July 04, 2022, 12:12:35 PM
Well one things for sure. Next time I see a request from Scott to staff up, I’m not making an effort the be there.   ;)

No worries, I don't request event staff ups.  And this wasn't a request from me or my VA, it was an announced VATUSA sponsored event.
Title: Re: VATUSA sponsored event (1 JUL 22)
Post by: Kyle Weber on July 04, 2022, 01:24:00 PM
I’m not sure public shaming is an effective way of addressing a purported management issue between staff members or organization representatives.
Title: Re: VATUSA sponsored event (1 JUL 22)
Post by: Scott DeWoody on July 04, 2022, 02:35:53 PM
I’m not sure public shaming is an effective way of addressing a purported management issue between staff members or organization representatives.

You're probably right Kyle.
Title: Re: VATUSA sponsored event (1 JUL 22)
Post by: Scott DeWoody on July 04, 2022, 06:17:00 PM
Everyone was informed and staffing was secured at ZAB.

ZAB was staffed and ready to accommodate, even after the change happened.

Maybe PHX was the better option if you wanted coverage. Not like you could change your origin airport at all. Once you select it days or weeks in advance, it's set in stone and locked in forever.

Evan, we changed to KMIA for our departure because our management felt that it would have been too long of a flight from KPHX, and I do appreciate you being there.
Title: Re: VATUSA sponsored event (1 JUL 22)
Post by: Karl Mathias Moberg on July 05, 2022, 02:22:31 PM
it was an announced VATUSA sponsored event.

What was the VATUSA sponsored event? The Open Mic Night FNO? If that's the case, then you have misunderstood the Open Mic Night. OMN is an opportunity for all of VATUSA to staff up when they can. ZNY does not schedule anything for OMN but encourage controllers to connect. We had no-one prepared to staff PHL, but had people show up when they saw a ton of arrivals to PHL. Had it been the other way, you'd probably barely had a CTR controller if I'm honest.

I agree with everyone else in this thread though that if you have a problem with ZMA in this, a forum is not the place to take up your complaints about it. You reach out to ZMA, and if they don't respond to you, you email the VATUSA Events Coordinator.