C1 Controller seeks I1 in ARTCC

Justin Loehner

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C1 Controller seeks I1 in ARTCC
« on: November 01, 2014, 01:08:53 PM »
This post is CLOSED.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2014, 07:55:07 PM by Justin Loehner »

Bradley Grafelman

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« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2014, 01:19:37 PM »
Quote from: Justin Loehner
I have been a vatsim controller with my c1 rating for years now and I have still been passed over for promotion.
Perhaps that was because in those years, you've only accumulated around 60 hours on a CTR position, whereas many others might hit that number in a month or two?

Just a casual observation from an outsider looking in...
« Last Edit: November 01, 2014, 01:20:16 PM by Brad Grafelman »

Justin Loehner

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« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2014, 01:24:47 PM »
Quote from: Brad Grafelman
Perhaps that was because in those years, you've only accumulated around 60 hours on a CTR position, whereas many others might hit that number in a month or two?

Just a casual observation from an outsider looking in...
Just because I have low hours on the position, does not mean I do not know what I am doing, I was a Mentor for a while and Have already proved my ability to teach

Chase Zimmerman

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« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2014, 02:06:59 PM »
Here is the story of John. John is a VATSIM controller. John has his S2 rating and comes to the realization that if he works hard enough and passes another OTS, his next step is S3. A few months later John has his C1 rating and wrongfully assumes that I1 is the next step in a "line" of promotions so he feels entitles to the position. John has fallen victim to the same idea that many VATSIM controllers end up believing. John never becomes an I1. Now, here is the story of Bill. Bill is a VATSIM controller. Bill has his C1 rating and is an active controller who thinks he may want to give back to the ARTCC and start teaching. Bill asks his TA if he can be a mentor, he receives the mentor status and works hard over the course of a few months (the important thing to realize is that he never ASKS to be an I1). Bill is approached by the TA who asks him if he would like to take the next step in his training career and become an I1 because he has worked hard as a mentor.

The moral of the story you ask? Instructing and teaching is NOT a "step" on the latter, it is something that you do in parallel to the rest of your controlling.

-Chase

Justin Loehner

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« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2014, 03:13:44 PM »
Quote from: Chase Zimmerman
Here is the story of John. John is a VATSIM controller. John has his S2 rating and comes to the realization that if he works hard enough and passes another OTS, his next step is S3. A few months later John has his C1 rating and wrongfully assumes that I1 is the next step in a "line" of promotions so he feels entitles to the position. John has fallen victim to the same idea that many VATSIM controllers end up believing. John never becomes an I1. Now, here is the story of Bill. Bill is a VATSIM controller. Bill has his C1 rating and is an active controller who thinks he may want to give back to the ARTCC and start teaching. Bill asks his TA if he can be a mentor, he receives the mentor status and works hard over the course of a few months (the important thing to realize is that he never ASKS to be an I1). Bill is approached by the TA who asks him if he would like to take the next step in his training career and become an I1 because he has worked hard as a mentor.

The moral of the story you ask? Instructing and teaching is NOT a "step" on the latter, it is something that you do in parallel to the rest of your controlling.

-Chase
Thank you for that rather inappropriate story........

I am not looking for a step, and thank you for hujacking my thread into a troll thread

Can someone please remove this post now?
« Last Edit: November 01, 2014, 03:14:54 PM by Justin Loehner »

Christopher Stacy

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« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2014, 03:19:15 PM »
I think this brings up a couple of points which are worthy of discussion. Your post seems to echo a sentiment that I have come across before, which is the belief that Mentor and Instructor ratings are part of the natural progression of a controller's career. I have been approached by controllers in the past who seem to think that once you have obtained your C1 rating, you should immediately proceed to become a mentor and instructor in the same way that obtaining your S2 means it's time to start working on S3. In my opinion this is quite far from the truth. Perhaps the scalar nature of controller ratings on VATSIM has led to this belief, the I1 is above the C1 and thus is higher up the ladder and must be more important.

It is interesting that you refer to an Instructor position as a "promotion", in the sense of being passed up for promotion. Perhaps I am unique, but I do not see a Mentor or Instructor position as a promotion at all. Instead, I think of a training position as an additional task. That is to say, instruction is a duty one undertakes in addition to whatever other roles they may have. Much in the same way that ARTCC staff have duties which they have undertaken in addition to their roles as controllers, I think that instructors are merely controllers who have volunteered for the additional work of training new members.

I think when we are students, we learn to look up to Instructors and Mentors as people of higher rank than ourselves, and perhaps rightfully so. After all, these are the people who not only passed on their knowledge and experience, but also determined when we were ready to control online and ready to take our exams and OTS's (and hold our fate in their hands while deciding the outcome of an OTS ). I think perhaps that it is easy to still think of Instructors as being of a higher "rank" when one becomes a C1. I don't really see it this way though. In terms of controlling ability, I think of an Instructor as being generally the same as a C1. In fact, some of the best controllers I have known on VATSIM have never been (and have no desire to be) involved with training.

I think the things that make a person a good instructor are different from those which make them a good controller. The tasks associated with controlling and instructing are very different, and in order to be an effective instructor it is necessary to master both. Obviously in the course of obtaining a C1, we learn the skills necessary to be an effective controller; however this does not teach us how to be effective instructors. An S2 trainee learns how to sequence VFR aircraft in the traffic pattern, but the task of the instructor is to effectively convey this knowledge and experience to the student, and to make the *student* good at sequencing aircraft. It can sometimes be difficult to teach a student to "see" a situation in the same way we do, and to effectively utilize the tools at their disposal to handle a situation effectively.

In addition to this, instructors must be more than mere faucets of information from which students may drink or drown. Rather, they must often provide *motivation* as well. In my (still ongoing) time as an instructor, I see my role as not only teaching students how to control in the way I do, but also to teach them to enjoy controlling the way I do. More than once in my career as an instructor I have seen students who are literally ready to give up on controlling having faced a number of instructors who simply spew information and expect the student to grasp bits of knowledge as they fly by. Even worse, there are many who merely wish to hold the rank of MTR or INS as a badge of seniority and have no interest whatsoever in the success or failure of those they teach. My point is not to rant about ineffective instructors, that will always be an unfortunately reality in an environment that operates on the scale that VATSIM does. My point is that when faced with these students, my task was *not* one of teaching them to control at all. My task was to teach them to enjoy controlling again first, and only then could I worry about passing on skills and knowledge.

Overall, it is not enough to be a good controller. Nor is it enough to be a good teacher. You must be a good controller, *and* a good teacher, *and* a good motivator. Perhaps it is counter-intuitive, but the mark of a good instructor is not the skills and abilities they posses. Rather, the sign of a good instructor is in the skills and abilities of their students. So for anyone who has spent some time as a mentor and thinks they are ready to become an instructor, my question to you is this: Who are your students? How many of them have become C1s? How many of them are even still around? When I think about my (reasonably successful, though certainly not stunning) career as an I1 I don't point to what I can do, or what I have done. I point to what those I have taught can do, and what they have done.

I would also like to take the opportunity to address the idea of transferring to another ARTCC in order to become an instructor. I expect many people will point out (rightfully so) that it takes a significant amount of time to gain the necessary familiarity with the airspace and procedures of different facilities before you can effectively teach that information to students. As such, I won't discuss that in detail other than to say that this is very much true. What is also important (and sometimes overlooked), is familiarity with the culture and the student body of the ARTCC in which you teach.

I don't think anyone would argue that the ARTCCs of VATUSA have very unique cultures. While we all follow the same procedures, there are many areas in which we control and operate differently. I don't expect that flying in ZHU or ZJX is going to be the same as flying in ZNY or ZLA. If nothing else, the difference in density and traffic volume alone make for a very different experience, both as a pilot and as a controller. One of the side effects of this is that the ARTCCs *do* have their own unique cultures. Personally I think this is a good thing. I enjoy flying in many different areas and getting a different local flavor depending on where I am. As an instructor, it is not enough to know the policies and procedures at a high level (as in "how to vector airplanes"), nor is it enough to know the policies and procedures of a particular facility. You must also be familiar with the culture of the environment in which you are teaching, and I think this can take longer than learning the airspace.

While it is impossible to put any kind of exact number on this (I would *never* say "You must be a member of an ARTCC for <X> days/months/years before you should be an I1), I can absolutely guarantee without hesitation that I would never consider making someone a member of my training staff until they are extremely familiar with not only the airspace, but also the culture and the students of the ARTCC. Anything else would be a formula for disaster.

Please be aware that *none* of this is directed at you personally. I don't know you, and I don't know your abilities and experience. You may well be the best teacher in VATUSA. I simply wanted to address the perception of instructors and mentors as senior ratings to which one is promoted, which seems to be quite common.

Justin Loehner

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« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2014, 03:36:33 PM »
to be disparaged and then dismissed as tripe is not very motivating for a controller to ever want to teach

Christopher Stacy

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« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2014, 03:39:33 PM »
Quote from: Justin Loehner
to be disparaged and then dismissed as tripe is not very motivating for a controller to ever want to teach

As I mentioned, none of my post was directed at your personally or intended to be disparaging. Quite the contrary, I find teaching to be extremely rewarding. I just wanted to take the opportunity to address the idea that a mentor or instructor position is a form of "promotion"

Chase Zimmerman

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« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2014, 03:41:36 PM »
Quote from: Chris Stacy
As I mentioned, none of my post was directed at your personally or intended to be disparaging. Quite the contrary, I find teaching to be extremely rewarding. I just wanted to take the opportunity to address the idea that a mentor or instructor position is a form of "promotion"

I agree with you Chris, The only thing that I attempted to convey with my original (apparently inappropriate) post is that an instructor rating is not something that a controller is entitled to get after reaching C1.

Justin Loehner

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« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2014, 03:51:39 PM »
This whole post has turned into a troll post, when I ONLY WANTED SERIOUS RESPONSES....


Chase Zimmerman

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« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2014, 03:56:29 PM »
Quote from: Justin Loehner
This whole post has turned into a troll post, when I ONLY WANTED SERIOUS RESPONSES....

Justin, All of these replies are serious replies... Christopher Stacy and myself are both Instructors and we are trying to convey what it takes to become an I1.

Matthew Bartels

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« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2014, 04:33:14 PM »
Quote from: Justin Loehner
This whole post has turned into a troll post, when I ONLY WANTED SERIOUS RESPONSES....

Allow me to be candid here. I'm not as nice as the others in this thread, but sometimes the truth needs to sting.

 Your first post raised a lot of red flags. There are many "ratings chasers" on the network who want to get that next rating because they think it's cool. Your first post raised that suspicion because you are disappointed that your facility did not select you as an instructor and that was the sole cause for transfer.  That is the telltale sign of a rating chaser.

All controllers that reach C1 are on the same level, and that includes those that have C3's back when they were awarded. ANY rating above C1/C3 is a temporary assignment that gives you special privileges on the network whether that be instructing, supervising, or admin. As other have said, it is a job to have those ratings not some mark of pedigree. An instructor has to double his VATSIM time or end up not controlling much at all because all of it is spent training new students. An instructor is subject to massive burnout after teaching the S1 rating material for the 500th time to a candidate that is not going to pursue the controlling side of the house. For every 30 S1 I put though as an instructor one or maybe two would reach the finish line as a C1. Talk about seeing return on your time investment.

So an instructor is a different breed, they have a great attitude, genuinely love the network, and want to see it and their student's succeed. They are not doing it just to click the I1 box on VRC.

So to be perfectly blunt. Maybe the reason you haven not been selected as an instructor is evidenced by your attitude to the very serious, helpful and cordial responses to your initial post. They are just not giving you the answer you want to hear. The best staff members and instructors are called to a position. The worst ones seek a position.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2014, 04:37:21 PM by Matthew Bartels »

Justin Loehner

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« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2014, 05:12:26 PM »
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« Last Edit: November 01, 2014, 09:21:03 PM by Justin Loehner »

Justin Loehner

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« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2014, 05:19:06 PM »
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« Last Edit: November 01, 2014, 09:20:46 PM by Justin Loehner »

Don Desfosse

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« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2014, 10:37:10 PM »
OK, folks.  With the number of post that are getting changed and deleted, it's apparent that some folks can't handle constructive criticism.  I'll be putting a stop to this now.

The lesson here, Justin, is that you have (or hopefully now it is had, past tense) an unrealistic expectation that once you have a C1 rating, you should be "promoted" to Instructor status.  Instructor status is just that, a status.  It's not a promotion.  The "rating change" is simply the way VATSIM, in its current construct, chooses to delineate the fact that the individual is authorized to be online providing training services.  Wise folks in this thread have tried to guide you into understanding that, and understanding that being appointed a mentor, and then instructor, is something that not every C1 is guaranteed.  There is no entitlement.  Once you've proven yourself in terms of your controlling skill, alignment with the ARTCC culture, maturity, and demonstrated an ability to mentor/teach others, only then might you be approached with a training opportunity.

Frankly, the tone that you took with everyone who tried to guide you was disgusting and appalling, and reeked of self-entitlement.  You essentially demanded a (nonexistent, mind you) promotion via whining, and when others tried to guide your expectations with well-thought out rationale and good guidance, you played the part of a victim, whining that everyone was turning this thread into a "troll post", etc.  Just because you aren't handed what you want on a silver platter doesn't entitle you to play the part of a victim.  You aren't a victim; you publicly demanded something to which 1. you are not entitled and 2. you have no right to demand, and whined and lashed out defensively when you got good advice in return.  Appalling.  My six and eight year old girls know better than to try that.

My hope is that you will stop, take a deep breath, grow up, reread and take to heart the good advice you've been given.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2014, 10:41:06 PM by Don Desfosse »