VATUSA Forums
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Ian Fisher on February 25, 2018, 03:32:26 PM
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Hey everyone,
Recently when I have been controlling and flying I have been receiving an influx of private messages advertising different VA's, groups or discords. The messages I have been receiving are similar to this:
"[21:23:26] [REDACTED]: Hey you should join our Discord server it's all about general aviation and flight simming(sic). I am a admin and my name on there is [REDACTED]. Here's the link if you want to join [REDACTED]"
Maybe I'm being a grumpy gill but is this a appropriate use for PM on the network? Is this actually breaking the rules? Am I the only one getting these messages? Just want to get some opinions.
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I've also noticed the increase in PM spam. They don't seem to understand why I ask them to stop spamming me with that crap. The closest thing to a CoC violation seems to be the usual A1.
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Well, when you spend weeks painting liveries, setting up a website, creating hundreds of routes, hiring Hub Managers for your nine worldwide hubs, but have no actual pilots to fly in your new VA, how else are you supposed to recruit?
;-) ;-) ;-)
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I haven't received any of these messages, but I commonly see people putting stuff like that in their remarks.
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how else are you supposed to recruit?
;-) ;-) ;-)
I understand the work that goes into it, but I respectfully disagree with ATC PMs being the answer to recruiting outlets. There are plenty of social media and forums to do that in. Redit, Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat, ......... MySpace (haha).... VATSIM, VATUSA, X-Plane.org.... the list goes on. Don’t bother ATC doing a job.... even if it sounds dead on frequency, unless they ask.
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I understand the work that goes into it, but I respectfully disagree with ATC PMs being the answer to recruiting outlets. There are plenty of social media and forums to do that in. Redit, Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat, ......... MySpace (haha).... VATSIM, VATUSA, X-Plane.org.... the list goes on. Don’t bother ATC doing a job.... even if it sounds dead on frequency, unless they ask.
Or other pilots. If I wanted to get spammed like that, I'd sign up for mailing lists. Plenty of "official" avenues exist for advertisement.
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Next time this happens please .wallop. This is not allowed, VATSIM provides many places to advertise your VAs. Also, when I control i generally .busyall so that they only people who can talk to me via private message are in range controllers.
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Next time this happens please .wallop. This is not allowed, VATSIM provides many places to advertise your VAs. Also, when I control i generally .busyall so that they only people who can talk to me via private message are in range controllers.
I tend to do that when I'm busy and can't accept PMs, but I've received PMs from pilots that are quasi-legitimateish.
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how else are you supposed to recruit?
;-) ;-) ;-)
I understand the work that goes into it, but I respectfully disagree with ATC PMs being the answer to recruiting outlets. There are plenty of social media and forums to do that in. Redit, Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat, ......... MySpace (haha).... VATSIM, VATUSA, X-Plane.org.... the list goes on. Don’t bother ATC doing a job.... even if it sounds dead on frequency, unless they ask.
For the record, I was speaking satirically about folks who start VAs with 100% infrastructure and no actual personnel. I am not actually in favor of unsolicited PMs sent to recruit members to any new venture... including mine.
Including VA and other website links in remarks, I don't see any harm. You can choose to look at them or not to look at them, and if so, when to do so. And they don't show up with loud distracting beeps... ;-)
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how else are you supposed to recruit?
;-) ;-) ;-)
I understand the work that goes into it, but I respectfully disagree with ATC PMs being the answer to recruiting outlets. There are plenty of social media and forums to do that in. Redit, Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat, ......... MySpace (haha).... VATSIM, VATUSA, X-Plane.org.... the list goes on. Don’t bother ATC doing a job.... even if it sounds dead on frequency, unless they ask.
For the record, I was speaking satirically about folks who start VAs with 100% infrastructure and no actual personnel. I am not actually in favor of unsolicited PMs sent to recruit members to any new venture... including mine.
Including VA and other website links in remarks, I don't see any harm. You can choose to look at them or not to look at them, and if so, when to do so. And they don't show up with loud distracting beeps... ;-)
When the remarks are at the end, sure... but when they front load the remarks, I'm forced to look at it before identifying if there's anything control-relevant in their remarks.
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Next time this happens please .wallop. This is not allowed, VATSIM provides many places to advertise your VAs. Also, when I control i generally .busyall so that they only people who can talk to me via private message are in range controllers.
Tony,
I didn't really want to go as far as a .wallop when I didn't even know for sure if they were violating COC/COR. Do you have a specific reference? In the future I would encourage people to read said reference. This was my intention with the pilot in question originally.
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This would be covered in Article VI 6.03C of the VATSIM Code of Regulation, under Prohibited Conduct. Spamming information through private message would certainly cause me not to enjoy the network.
.busyall allows other controller who are in your vis range to still contact you via PM if needed. It does not allow pilots to contact you via PM.
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My scoop on this... This is entirely unacceptable. I can't seem to find the CoC/CoR violation, though. Anyone see it?
CoC (A)(12) forbids private messages intended to "harass" -- but in the context of the other words around it ("threaten," "intimidate," etcetera), I don't know that unsolicited advertising rises to the level intended by the code -- at least, if it's only sent one time. If it's sent multiple times I would think that would leave one open against a case for "harassing" messages. I do agree that it's a pretty despicable practice. I've definitely engaged people (fellow pilots and controllers) on the network in PM conversations that have led naturally to my mentioning VATSTAR, but I've never simply cold-called someone via PM to urge them to visit and sign up and I would absolutely not condone anyone from our organization engaging in that kind of petty business. I wonder if it's something the BoG would be open to modifying the CoC to expressly forbid stuff like that?
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I've definitely engaged people (fellow pilots and controllers) on the network in PM conversations that have led naturally to my mentioning VATSTAR, but I've never simply cold-called someone via PM to urge them to visit and sign up and I would absolutely not condone anyone from our organization engaging in that kind of petty business. I wonder if it's something the BoG would be open to modifying the CoC to expressly forbid stuff like that?
It is a common practice for me to PM a link to new pilots with Pilot Training information (VATSTAR.com) if I see that they're struggling. I have an alias for it. It's something to the tune of "Aloha. If you'd like to learn more about flying on VATSIM and want to improve your flying skills, I highly recommend that you check out VATSTAR.com. You can obtain pilot ratings, etc..." and so on.
Messages like that from a controller to a pilot, in my opinion, are contributing towards the improvement of the network by better educating pilots and creating a more professional environment, which in turn makes it more fun for everyone.
VATSIM's three fundamental principles are education, professionalism, and entertainment.
Rob, I don't think that your PMing with pilots and controllers about VATSTAR as you describe is the same kind of spamming that we're dealing with from other organizations. I believe that your desire to improve the quality of the members of the network is different than someone trying to hire 500 pilots for a VA. Same thing with what I do: I see a pilot that needs assistance, so I help him/her by providing the information necessary to become a better pilot.
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I've definitely engaged people (fellow pilots and controllers) on the network in PM conversations that have led naturally to my mentioning VATSTAR, but I've never simply cold-called someone via PM to urge them to visit and sign up and I would absolutely not condone anyone from our organization engaging in that kind of petty business. I wonder if it's something the BoG would be open to modifying the CoC to expressly forbid stuff like that?
It is a common practice for me to PM a link to new pilots with Pilot Training information (VATSTAR.com) if I see that they're struggling. I have an alias for it.
That's a good point. I do think there's a purpose served by something like that; obviously, I agree that it benefits the network. (At least I hope so, haha.)
I believe that your desire to improve the quality of the members of the network is different than someone trying to hire 500 pilots for a VA.
And the upshot of this conversation is that any regulation we might favor would need to be very carefully crafted as to allow what we see as legitimate, and disallow that which we see as a nuisance. That is bound to be a tricky proposition.
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The section that covers this is Article VI 6.03.C of the VATSIM Code of Regulation. Spamming me via private message certainly ruins my enjoyment of the network.
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Spamming me via private message certainly ruins my enjoyment of the network.
And which section defines "spamming" as "sending a single message throughout the entire duration of a pilot's flight"? I got one of these whilst flying as well. Read it, decided it wasn't for me, closed the PM, went about my flight.
Sorry, but if receiving a single PM that you can read at your leisure and decline to take any action on if you're not interested can "ruin [your] enjoyment of the network," then maybe the network isn't for you. And by "the network", I mean not only VATSIM but the Internet as a whole. If there's a decision (from those in positions to make one) about how the PM functionality should or shouldn't be used, then let that decision come to light in the form of a clear PM usage policy.. not this "oh but it ruins my fun!" crap.
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Spamming me via private message certainly ruins my enjoyment of the network.
And which section defines "spamming" as "sending a single message throughout the entire duration of a pilot's flight"? I got one of these whilst flying as well. Read it, decided it wasn't for me, closed the PM, went about my flight.
Sorry, but if receiving a single PM that you can read at your leisure and decline to take any action on if you're not interested can "ruin [your] enjoyment of the network," then maybe the network isn't for you. And by "the network", I mean not only VATSIM but the Internet as a whole. If there's a decision (from those in positions to make one) about how the PM functionality should or shouldn't be used, then let that decision come to light in the form of a clear PM usage policy.. not this "oh but it ruins my fun!" crap.
The colloquial definition of spam is unsolicited advertisement, not repeated messages. The dictionary also includes, "irrelevant or inappropriate messages sent on the Internet to a large number of recipients." The aforementioned messages seem to fit those definitions.
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@ Bradley I can't explain it any better than Matt did.
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Hey everyone,
"[21:23:26] [REDACTED]: Hey you should join our Discord server it's all about general aviation and flight simming(sic). I am a admin and my name on there is [REDACTED]. Here's the link if you want to join [REDACTED]"
Sounds like an SCP, lol
SCP-2992
Object class: Keter
SCP-2992 is a human of unknown gender that resided on the VATSIM virtual air traffic network, and commonly can be found advertising discords. It is extremely hostile if anybody tells it to [REDACTED].
In all seriousness i haven't seen these on xsquawkbox. Maybe it is only going through the vPilot client? I might hop onto FSX to see if i see any messages.
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In all seriousness i haven't seen these on xsquawkbox. Maybe it is only going through the vPilot client? I might hop onto FSX to see if i see any messages.
Messages are messages. They don't care about the client used, they all work and come out the same.
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This can't be a VATUSA isolated issue. Does VATNA/VATUSA have anything to say about it?
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This can't be a VATUSA isolated issue. Does VATNA/VATUSA have anything to say about it?
VATNA/VATUSA aren't involved in this. As recommended above, wallop a supervisor so it can be taken care of if such messages are received.
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This can't be a VATUSA isolated issue. Does VATNA/VATUSA have anything to say about it?
VATNA/VATUSA aren't involved in this. As recommended above, wallop a supervisor so it can be taken care of if such messages are received.
Typo alert... VATNA/VATSIM*
Are they discussing it at the network level yet, or is it still too small? Will wallop if necessary. ;D
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Typo alert... VATNA/VATSIM*
Are they discussing it at the network level yet, or is it still too small? Will wallop if necessary. ;D
I mean, does this need a special discussion? Spam is spam, no matter if it's loosely related to the topic at hand or not.