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General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Shane VanHoven on September 02, 2018, 05:32:35 PM

Title: Why flying your airplane well is the most important part of a successful FNO
Post by: Shane VanHoven on September 02, 2018, 05:32:35 PM
...With video evidence.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6m2Tt7JrT3Q

Thanks for everyone who flew into the ZMP FNO last Friday, it could very well have been one of the most enjoyable FNO's that I've ever worked.

But for goodness sake. Can we please figure out how to intercept the localizer? Go ahead and watch that timelapse linked above... Someone counted 44 (FORTY-FOUR) localizer overshoots. Our final controllers got their butts handed to them because of how much extra hand holding they had to do on the final because of people that can't be bothered to hit the APP button on their autopilot.

Also, fly your assigned speed please.

Also, X-Plane users with slow frame rates: https://forums.x-plane.org/index.php?/files/file/26517-autospeed/

Notice how much of an impact every overshoot has on the aircraft behind them. It snowballs really fast and if the traffic flow doesn't have natural breaks to allow the final to recover, poop hits the fan really fast.

But anyway, it was fun, thanks for flying in.
Title: Re: Why flying your airplane well is the most important part of a successful FNO
Post by: Sergio Lopez on September 04, 2018, 09:23:22 AM
Nice time lapse. We seemed to have dodged that bullet in our event August 25th. It's amazing how badly missing the final approach can cause all sorts of havoc.

On these events it's very important to pay attention to altitude, speed and heading changes. There's very little speaking time available to approach controller, so every second counts. No time for "can you say again?"...
Title: Re: Why flying your airplane well is the most important part of a successful FNO
Post by: Clay Brock on September 04, 2018, 02:33:39 PM
Yes! Please turn the aircraft BEFORE you readback. Aviate, navigate, communicate. All too often, I see people blowing through the LOC because they take too much time reading back the approach clearance, and not turning the airplane.
Title: Re: Why flying your airplane well is the most important part of a successful FNO
Post by: Brin Brody on September 05, 2018, 05:59:16 AM
That music made me progressively more uncomfortable as the video went on...

Looks great though!

+1 on all said above.  We should also (as instructors and mentors) mention to students that an immediate readback is not required.  Often, when flying, I won't provide a readback within a second or two because I'm executing the instruction, and I'll receive the instruction again.  Not really ideal.  :D
Title: Re: Why flying your airplane well is the most important part of a successful FNO
Post by: Matt Bromback on September 05, 2018, 07:09:06 AM
Shane,

Very interesting to watch this video thanks for posting...I actually slowed it to 0.5x to try and study it more. I actually noticed something that seems to happen almost EVERY major VATSIM event. Reference 1:30 onward...

I do not know what splits you had going on, but it looks like it goes from controller H (bottom SW corner) and sometimes they keep them but others go to S (assuming south final). After the 1:30 mark the controller started having some pilots that you can tell were having a hard time. The final controller was starting to get overwhelmed either through bad pilots, voice lag issues, or just to many airplanes. However the airplanes still keep flooding in from feeder, you can even see some pilots were taken way outside the final box to the south to get re-sequenced. This is why inter-facility communication is crucial, I know many of us have the "gotta complete the mission" type of mentality and want to get everyone on the ground as quickly/safely as possible. This is a common problem across the network that the feeder controllers don't communicate that much with the final controller and leads to problems arising such as this. Wouldn't you agree that even with localizer overhsoots, failed approaches and go arounds that it would be much easier if at some point they held the handoffs just for a few minutes to fix the problems?

I have never worked up in ZMP so again I don't know your airspace and I completely understand why airspace is designed a certain way. When I watch this video I see a whole bunch of "black" areas where no aircraft ever goes, why not utilize this space? I know it is most likely because it is Departure or Satellite airspace and you all want to follow the procedures for realism. I think in this situation if you just bent the rules a little and used that space to give your final approach controllers a little more room this could of all been avoided.

I am in no way telling you guys how to control your airspace, you know it not me. What I am merely trying to do is give you all a different perspective when it comes to events. All of us controllers strive for realism and sometimes I think we expect to much sometimes and don't realize were dealing with people flying complex airplanes, by themselves, aging from 13 to ?? all with different varying levels of knowledge. At the end of the day whether your a pilot or controller on the network it is to have fun! It sounds like you had fun from this event which is great! Just don't lose sight that there will always be new people, there will always be challenges, and at the end of the day this is all a hobby that we have all come to love so lets just have fun!
Title: Re: Why flying your airplane well is the most important part of a successful FNO
Post by: Shane VanHoven on September 05, 2018, 11:26:50 PM
Wouldn't you agree that even with localizer overshoots, failed approaches and go arounds that it would be much easier if at some point they held the handoffs just for a few minutes to fix the problems?

I would agree, and that's why, at 1:48, the H controller (me) spun 3 airplanes once, at the request of the S controller. I even managed to keep the first come first serve operational priority in tact!! But if S didn't ask for it, I'm assuming he's killing it per norm, and doesn't need it. Ego on this network gets so strong sometimes that people don't recognize when they need help, so they'll just slowly get deeper and deeper into the toilet and keep accepting handoffs because they don't know any better. We knock that habit out of people early in their training at ZMP. Which is why our TRACON people ask for in-trail if we need it, and our final people will ask for a breather if they need it. When I'm on feeder I'm also always watching the final box and keeping tabs on things to see how I can make life easier for them.

When I watch this video I see a whole bunch of "black" areas where no aircraft ever goes, why not utilize this space? I know it is most likely because it is Departure or Satellite airspace and you all want to follow the procedures for realism.

While it is technically because that airspace is owned by someone else, it is also because using that airspace inevitably result in an inefficient operation. Here are 3 reasons why:

TLDR: Extra work, which sucks and is inefficient.

1. Abnormal procedures require coordination. Coordination=extra work. Why make extra work for yourself when it's unnecessary. The traffic levels during this event were nowhere near the level required to start putting airplanes in random spots.

2. Abnormal procedures cause other controllers to have to guess what your plan is. Our departure positions at the MSP TRACON are essentially "Don't hit arrivals, then climb when able." That's possible because arrivals are coming in at the same altitude on the same route every single time. There were a couple instances during this event where we actually had the need to use extra airspace to build spacing for the downwind sequence or in-trail to the final box, and every time I did that I had to tell the departure controller that I was using his airspace and I was staying at a certain altitude, so he could go back and restrict his guys so that we wouldn't loose separation. Again, extra work for you, extra work for others.

3. All and all, the operation is setup the way it is because FAA people have spent months and years evaluating this stuff, and they determined that this way is the best way we could possibly do things. This is why we try to follow the real place to a T... cause they're clearly doing something right.

Thanks for the feedback. I definitely agree it's important to keep everything in perspective. We strive for perfection at ZMP, and that's been how to we keep it fun for us.

Title: Re: Why flying your airplane well is the most important part of a successful FNO
Post by: Lucas Kakert on September 05, 2018, 11:54:53 PM
3. All and all, the operation is setup the way it is because FAA people have spent months and years evaluating this stuff, and they determined that this way is the best way we could possibly do things. This is why we try to follow the real place to a T... cause they're clearly doing something right.

Thanks for the feedback. I definitely agree it's important to keep everything in perspective. We strive for perfection at ZMP, and that's been how to we keep it fun for us.

So i understand that you guys are striving for perfection but are you striving to be real controllers or be the best vatsim controllers? Last I checked you are a real controller, when does the line get drawn between a game and real life? In my real plane most of the time one person will be talking while the other is performing the request. On vatsim its just me having to talk, pan my camera around, hope that vpilot is working correct, hope my sim doesn't freeze, adjusting my autopilot, etc... The real FAA did these studies with real airplanes and real pilots. We cannot treat vatsim pilots as real pilots or even these planes as real planes, this has been proven time and time again. You still have to account for the fact that this is a simulation that is not 100% accurate and that the pilots you are working with learned to fly this airplane by watching a video on youtube.

I agree with nearly everything you put in your last response other than the part that i quoted. We also try and use the real world procedure as a guide when developing and modifying procedures for ZTL but they are just a reference. We always have to take into account the type of pilot we are expecting to work with, be it increasing MIT by a % or knowing that I should probably give this PTAC early.

Now building on something else you brought up the ego about not asking for help or not asking for more space is real, and until it gets brought up with the person next to you its easy to just assume that someone is doing fine. We had to specifically assign our CIC at events now to watch the traffic flow as a whole and make decisions on if final or feeder needed more space without them asking to work around this issue. Granted what worked for us might not work for you but sometimes having a someone available to make the decision for you really can help.
Title: Re: Why flying your airplane well is the most important part of a successful FNO
Post by: Shane VanHoven on September 06, 2018, 12:50:18 AM
So i understand that you guys are striving for perfection but are you striving to be real controllers or be the best vatsim controllers?

The majority of the controllers working the event were not real world controllers. We all recognize VATSIM's challenges and strive to be the best VATSIM controllers we can. 

So i understand that you guys are striving for perfection but are you striving to be real controllers or be the best vatsim controllers? Last I checked you are a real controller, when does the line get drawn between a game and real life? In my real plane most of the time one person will be talking while the other is performing the request. On vatsim its just me having to talk, pan my camera around, hope that vpilot is working correct, hope my sim doesn't freeze, adjusting my autopilot, etc... The real FAA did these studies with real airplanes and real pilots. We cannot treat vatsim pilots as real pilots or even these planes as real planes, this has been proven time and time again. You still have to account for the fact that this is a simulation that is not 100% accurate and that the pilots you are working with learned to fly this airplane by watching a video on youtube.

I think you might have slightly missed my point. I agree with you with all of that. My argument for the FAA research and development was solely for traffic flow management. Specifically, how to move airplanes in the way that would be most efficient. Every flight will involve routing, vectors, and altitude assignments, however, the art of traffic management is figuring out when to use those methods of control in a way that is most effective...how to design STARs and OPDs to cater to a specific operation.

Going against what the FAA does at the real facility would be like ordering a steak well done when the head-chef of the restaurant recommends medium-rare. The real system built these procedures because it proved to be the best way to move airplanes. That method shouldn't really effect how much workload the pilot has when flying the airplane. Well, actually, leaving them on the OPD arrival should actually reduce their workload. So make that a 4th reason why we don't use all that empty airspace in the TRACON.
Title: Re: Why flying your airplane well is the most important part of a successful FNO
Post by: Ryan Parry on September 06, 2018, 08:24:55 AM
So i understand that you guys are striving for perfection but are you striving to be real controllers or be the best vatsim controllers? Last I checked you are a real controller, when does the line get drawn between a game and real life? In my real plane most of the time one person will be talking while the other is performing the request. On vatsim its just me having to talk, pan my camera around, hope that vpilot is working correct, hope my sim doesn't freeze, adjusting my autopilot, etc... The real FAA did these studies with real airplanes and real pilots. We cannot treat vatsim pilots as real pilots or even these planes as real planes, this has been proven time and time again. You still have to account for the fact that this is a simulation that is not 100% accurate and that the pilots you are working with learned to fly this airplane by watching a video on youtube.

You're constantly trying to push the "they're not real pilots", "you can't work them like they have certificates", etc, narrative in nearly every single thread on this forum. The OP has video evidence you're wrong. We know they're not real pilots, we know we are not all real controllers either. A large majority of the people flying FNO's are the same people every week, and yet some of these ARTCC's like ZMP are able to to run great FNO's without a loss of separation, much less without putting multiple aircraft nose to nose in the final box.

Sorry if it seems blunt, but your desire to constantly push this gets really old.
Title: Re: Why flying your airplane well is the most important part of a successful FNO
Post by: Owen Bliss on September 06, 2018, 08:46:52 AM
...With video evidence.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6m2Tt7JrT3Q

Thanks for everyone who flew into the ZMP FNO last Friday, it could very well have been one of the most enjoyable FNO's that I've ever worked.

But for goodness sake. Can we please figure out how to intercept the localizer? Go ahead and watch that timelapse linked above... Someone counted 44 (FORTY-FOUR) localizer overshoots. Our final controllers got their butts handed to them because of how much extra hand holding they had to do on the final because of people that can't be bothered to hit the APP button on their autopilot.

Also, fly your assigned speed please.

Also, X-Plane users with slow frame rates: https://forums.x-plane.org/index.php?/files/file/26517-autospeed/

Notice how much of an impact every overshoot has on the aircraft behind them. It snowballs really fast and if the traffic flow doesn't have natural breaks to allow the final to recover, poop hits the fan really fast.

But anyway, it was fun, thanks for flying in.

This has to be one of the best posts I've seen in ages.  ;D
Title: Re: Why flying your airplane well is the most important part of a successful FNO
Post by: Matthew Kosmoski on September 06, 2018, 09:03:43 AM
So i understand that you guys are striving for perfection but are you striving to be real controllers or be the best vatsim controllers? Last I checked you are a real controller, when does the line get drawn between a game and real life? In my real plane most of the time one person will be talking while the other is performing the request. On vatsim its just me having to talk, pan my camera around, hope that vpilot is working correct, hope my sim doesn't freeze, adjusting my autopilot, etc... The real FAA did these studies with real airplanes and real pilots. We cannot treat vatsim pilots as real pilots or even these planes as real planes, this has been proven time and time again. You still have to account for the fact that this is a simulation that is not 100% accurate and that the pilots you are working with learned to fly this airplane by watching a video on youtube.

You're constantly trying to push the "they're not real pilots", "you can't work them like they have certificates", etc, narrative in nearly every single thread on this forum. The OP has video evidence you're wrong. We know they're not real pilots, we know we are not all real controllers either. A large majority of the people flying FNO's are the same people every week, and yet some of these ARTCC's like ZMP are able to to run great FNO's without a loss of separation, much less without putting multiple aircraft nose to nose in the final box.

Sorry if it seems blunt, but your desire to constantly push this gets really old.

I don't think that, "yet some of these ARTCC's like ZMP are able to to run great FNO's without a loss of separation, much less without putting multiple aircraft nose to nose in the final box" is unique to any one facility.  If that was a recurring issue at any facility, it'd be addressed.  I can tell you we do a pretty damn good job, too, and it's not like we see dissimilar numbers.

The reason Luke likely keeps bringing it up, as I would I, is that the premise of this post is that pilots were screwing up.  "Great event guys, but can you pretty please capture that loc?"  It's the third line, for Pete's sake.  You can't say the OP didn't precisely say that.  You can't start a post like that, and have somebody come back later and say, "he didn't mean it, guys!  It's not about that!"
Title: Re: Why flying your airplane well is the most important part of a successful FNO
Post by: Dhruv Kalra on September 06, 2018, 10:30:31 AM
It doesn’t take a real pilot certificate to understand how to twist a knob, press a button, and then acknowledge an instruction.

When, averaging out from that video, 1/3 of the pilot population doesn’t know how to do that in a timely manner, that shouldn’t be considered “acceptable” and shrugged off. I can understand losing separation during an event. I’m not going to hang someone for it if it happens. If it’s happening consistently, however, then I’m damn well going to try and determine why and try and figure out how to better prepare the affected controller.

If we’re not trying to make ourselves better at this every time out, why do we keep coming back? Accepting mediocrity as “the way it is” shouldn’t be the goal.
Title: Re: Why flying your airplane well is the most important part of a successful FNO
Post by: Manuel Manigault on September 06, 2018, 11:25:50 AM
It doesn’t take a real pilot certificate to understand how to twist a knob, press a button, and then acknowledge an instruction.

When, averaging out from that video, 1/3 of the pilot population doesn’t know how to do that in a timely manner, that shouldn’t be considered “acceptable” and shrugged off. I can understand losing separation during an event. I’m not going to hang someone for it if it happens. If it’s happening consistently, however, then I’m damn well going to try and determine why and try and figure out how to better prepare the affected controller.

If we’re not trying to make ourselves better at this every time out, why do we keep coming back? Accepting mediocrity as “the way it is” shouldn’t be the goal.

Do you think it would be beneficial if ZMP had a Pilot Ratings Program like ZBW or ZLA?  Do you think ATOs like VATSTAR are having any positive effect?
Title: Re: Why flying your airplane well is the most important part of a successful FNO
Post by: Matt Bromback on September 06, 2018, 11:37:39 AM
I want to address a few things in this thread because from my perspective people are jumping to conclusions.

I believe Shane made this post to highlight the importance of aviate, navigate, communicate in terms of joining a localizer during a high traffic event such as a FNO. Maybe some of you took this as not a learning post, but a bitch post. Take a step back and realize we are all in this hobby to have fun and better enjoy ourselves with others. Maybe this is just a classic example of trying to visualize a person saying what is written, very hard to do and most of the time misread.

The point that Luke and Matt are making is that there has to be a certain level of expectation (or lack thereof) of a VATSIM pilot. I do not believe they are trying to say bad pilots are acceptable, no one wants bad pilots, but I do think they realize they have to extremely flexible when controlling. Does this mean going against FAA procedures such as airspace or SIDs/STARs to accomplish this? Yes if it gets the job done. Are they telling everyone else to do it that way, I don't think they are. All I think they are trying to is point out a realistic level of expectation of pilots on the network.

Pilot training is one of the current "hot topics" within the division. There are lots of ideas of floating around on how to accomplish this but it is a tremendous task, with so many varying ideas/concepts/executions. Maybe one day it will come to fruition, maybe not, for now we must be able to remain flexible with our membership. Every time I hop on the scope I follow RW procedures as the best of my ability and hope a pilot will have the knowledge, skill, airplane, sim to do the same. However I do not expect them to have any of that, this makes it extremely easier for me to not only enjoy my controlling session but I believe the pilot has a better experience that way as well. If I have time to help and educate that pilot I do that.

One thing I am going around to ARTCC's and offering is a way to have a dedicated room/channel in their TS or Discord for pilots who are flying in/out of that airspace to ask questions. If a controller online (or offline for that matter) has the time or wants to answer some questions what better way to engage the community then that? It is in real time, its your airspace, and both parties benefit from that. So I urge everyone to think outside the box a little to include their pilots who fly in their airspace often in some pilot/controller relations.
Title: Re: Why flying your airplane well is the most important part of a successful FNO
Post by: Dhruv Kalra on September 06, 2018, 11:57:45 AM
Thanks for your insight, Matt. I think it definitely falls upon us to try and be ambassadors towards our pilots and educate them to the best of our ability. We publish a fairly detailed briefing packet prior to every MSP event that we make available to pilots: https://minniecenter.org/pdf/MigrationXII_Brief.pdf

It’s not a perfect document by any means, but we’ve tried to make it comprehensive and proactive in squashing some of the common mistakes that we see during our events. The eventual goal is that we have this material persistently available in the pilots area of our website. The sad reality, however, is that most VATSIM pilots don’t seek out ARTCC websites as sources of information.

If we’re going to truly reach the masses, the push has to come from a higher up level. The ATO system works, but as long as it remains a purely voluntary exercise you’re going to get a large majority of pilots that either don’t know about its existence or simply choose not to participate in it. I’ll proactively private message pilots with constructive advice if/when I see them deviate from a procedure, but by and large I receive defensive attitude in return (prime example being “My FMC is doing it the way it’s programmed. Get off my back”).

I’m not by any means giving up, but we as a division could also do with ensuring a more consistent experience across the board. Normalization of deviance happens quite a bit because in a lot of cases controllers will let a LOT slide to the point where a pilot has no idea that they might be doing something wrong. Case in point, we had pilots arguing with our local controllers that their going around off an approach where legal SRS existed was justified on a separation basis because “I’ve been sent around by other controllers on a 3 mile final in similar situations before”. If guys working local control are that gun-shy, it means they’re not applying prescribed separation properly, and that hurts places when they do.
Title: Re: Why flying your airplane well is the most important part of a successful FNO
Post by: Manuel Manigault on September 06, 2018, 12:15:58 PM
Thanks for your insight, Matt. I think it definitely falls upon us to try and be ambassadors towards our pilots and educate them to the best of our ability. We publish a fairly detailed briefing packet prior to every MSP event that we make available to pilots: https://minniecenter.org/pdf/MigrationXII_Brief.pdf

It’s not a perfect document by any means, but we’ve tried to make it comprehensive and proactive in squashing some of the common mistakes that we see during our events. The eventual goal is that we have this material persistently available in the pilots area of our website. The sad reality, however, is that most VATSIM pilots don’t seek out ARTCC websites as sources of information.

If we’re going to truly reach the masses, the push has to come from a higher up level. The ATO system works, but as long as it remains a purely voluntary exercise you’re going to get a large majority of pilots that either don’t know about its existence or simply choose not to participate in it. I’ll proactively private message pilots with constructive advice if/when I see them deviate from a procedure, but by and large I receive defensive attitude in return (prime example
being “My FMC is doing it the way it’s programmed. Get off my back”).

I’m not by any means giving up, but we as a division could also do with ensuring a more consistent experience across the board. Normalization of deviance happens quite a bit because in a lot of cases controllers will let a LOT slide to the point where a pilot has no idea that they might be doing something wrong. Case in point, we had pilots arguing with our local controllers that their going around off an approach where legal SRS existed was justified on a separation basis because “I’ve been sent around by other controllers on a 3 mile final in similar situations before”. If guys working local control are that gun-shy, it means they’re not applying prescribed separation properly, and that hurts places when they do.

That's why I brought up the Pilot Rating Program.  ZBW has one that appears to be successful.  They have plenty of GA events, have very complex airspace, and very busy FNOs.  I do not hear the level of angst that I hear from ZMP.  Is it because they have good participation in their PRP and its having a positive effect?  Is it because they have the same level of pilot errors but they are more accepting of "pilot deviance"? Is it because they have a strong pilot community and great pilot/atc relationship?  ZMP has a very tenured staff and several real world controllers.  Making your experience available in a teaching environment would be very beneficial.  One thing I would like to see is more communication between facilities in order to share best practices. 
Title: Re: Why flying your airplane well is the most important part of a successful FNO
Post by: Ira Robinson on September 06, 2018, 01:18:51 PM
Okay, my turn. I know, I know, duck and cover. Another loooong boaring post   ::)   Well, here it is, for better or for worse.

Gentlemen, you have tried very hard not to turn this discussion into whose controllers are more flexible or have more skills,  or are better suited to deal with the pilots than others. In that you have seceded pretty well I think.  Everyone has also fought he urge to simply blame every pilot, everywhere, every time and accept that sometimes it is us  There we go, I said it, they aren't all bad, so let's accept the fact that no matter what, all of us will occasionally make that odd mistake.  Happens.  So now, since it happens on occasion, what can we do about it?  Well, the first thing we need to do it recognize that no matter how we hard try it will just happen. There are so many distractions for the pilots and our controllers anyway, so sometimes we just have to cut them some slack .

I also saw where someone said we need to make pilot training mandatory.  Well, try as we might, I don't think we will see that happen anytime soon either.  Ahhh, but what I do see is a way to begin leaning on the pilot community to raise the stakes a little.

I did a quick scan of the opening page of all of the VATUSA ARTCC web sites  just now.  Four of them list VATSTARS as a Partner organization.  ZLA has it's own pilot program.  Boston has BVA. By my count that's 6 out of 22 ARTCC have the ability to affect pilot training.   Now that may not sound like a lot, 6/22, but we all know that VATSTARS isn't tied only to the Division  and can issue training anywhere.

My suggestion, take Shane up on suggestion and stop providing good feedback to the VA's who ask, and then go directly to those same VA's and tell them the truth; if your pilots don't learn how to fly better they well no longer be invited to fly here (wherever
here is). I don't see any reason we, as the controller can't require a higher standard.    If VATSTAR wants to issue a certificate to me I better know to push a button and spin a dial.  If I don't that pilot is not welcome back.

Guys, this is the short version.  I know there will be lots of discussion about what we ca and cannot do about this. Yes, as a  training school VATSTAR has earned a good reputation.  Well, quite frankly, I'm not interested in his reputation or the number of pilots he has trained.  More power to him.  But if he has trained all that many pilots how come the same ones show up every Friday night, but stay home on Saturdays?  Or are we only talking about the same dozen or two pilots, and is this discussion really about accepting 30 aircraft an hour when the airport can only handle 25?  Because if that is case that's a different kettle of fish!

My point to all of this is that if you want to hold the pilots responsible than stop waiting for the Board to make it mandatory. What you should be doing is bitching to the Division that it should have some sort of liason officer whose first assignment is going to be to
sit down with the various VA's and ATO's and suggest (yea, as in strongly suggest) that they teach their student pilots two things that we absolutely need.  The first, which hand is the left and which hand is the right.  The second thing that they need to add some meat to is the section on communicating with the controller. Tighten those two subjects up and I think it's a great place to start.

And that's my two cents about this...…..
Title: Re: Why flying your airplane well is the most important part of a successful FNO
Post by: Shane VanHoven on September 06, 2018, 06:39:23 PM
The reason Luke likely keeps bringing it up, as I would I, is that the premise of this post is that pilots were screwing up.  "Great event guys, but can you pretty please capture that loc?"  It's the third line, for Pete's sake.  You can't say the OP didn't precisely say that.

Uhh yeah I can. I didn't precisely say that. If you're gonna quote me, at least use a direct quote. It builds credibility.
Title: Re: Why flying your airplane well is the most important part of a successful FNO
Post by: Matthew Kosmoski on September 06, 2018, 08:24:54 PM
The reason Luke likely keeps bringing it up, as I would I, is that the premise of this post is that pilots were screwing up.  "Great event guys, but can you pretty please capture that loc?"  It's the third line, for Pete's sake.  You can't say the OP didn't precisely say that.

Uhh yeah I can. I didn't precisely say that. If you're gonna quote me, at least use a direct quote. It builds credibility.

(https://i.imgur.com/UBsdwPf.png)
Title: Re: Why flying your airplane well is the most important part of a successful FNO
Post by: Shane VanHoven on September 06, 2018, 08:45:23 PM
"Great event guys, but can you pretty please capture that loc?"

Does not equal:

But for goodness sake. Can we please figure out how to intercept the localizer?

Doesn't matter. Do you really think I'm asking too much of pilots? If you can't join a course, you shouldn't be flying in the IFR system. Plain and simple. If that's asking too much, then I'll find better ways to spend my free time.
Title: Re: Why flying your airplane well is the most important part of a successful FNO
Post by: Ryan Parry on September 06, 2018, 11:20:25 PM
Ira,

I agree. I almost wonder if it would be worth while for VATUSA to open its own ATO. I know VATSTAR is out there, and they do a good job, but what if we had our own? Let the ARTCC's design a program, they know the airspace better than anybody. I tried to get ZOA setup with VATSTAR but it fell apart because we don't meet some of the requirements they've set for a few check rides. That's a shame because we offer some great airspace for learning. Our airports have advanced a little too far along the nextgen pipeline and decommissioned some of the legacy procedures they require, and I assume that is why I have not heard back.
Title: Re: Why flying your airplane well is the most important part of a successful FNO
Post by: Mark Hubbert on September 07, 2018, 01:19:58 AM
Quote
I agree. I almost wonder if it would be worth while for VATUSA to open its own ATO. I know VATSTAR is out there, and they do a good job, but what if we had our own? Let the ARTCC's design a program, they know the airspace better than anybody. I tried to get ZOA setup with VATSTAR but it fell apart because we don't meet some of the requirements they've set for a few check rides. That's a shame because we offer some great airspace for learning. Our airports have advanced a little too far along the nextgen pipeline and decommissioned some of the legacy procedures they require, and I assume that is why I have not heard back.

I reached out to VATSTAR in hopes that a partnership could be formed with the Division to address the concerns that the ARTCC's brought to light in a recent forum post that I initiated.  Unfortunately, I was not satisfied that these concerns would be addressed if we were to partner with VATSTAR and have them as our official ATO.  While I have not made any official moves otherwise, I am looking at some options and I am hopeful to initiate some sort of effort to address the concerns that the ARTCC's have brought forth especially during events.  Honestly while I think that we can improve somewhat, I am not sure what sort of percentage of improvement we can expect.  I am hopeful that with a variety of programs etc. that combined we can effect positive change at a higher percentage than just one concept by itself.
Title: Re: Why flying your airplane well is the most important part of a successful FNO
Post by: Robert Shearman Jr on September 07, 2018, 02:17:13 AM
I tried to get ZOA setup with VATSTAR but it fell apart because we don't meet some of the requirements they've set for a few check rides.
Untrue.  It fell apart when I stopped receiving responses to emails about setting up a time to meet & discuss.  Let's get back in touch & try again to get it moving.
Title: Re: Why flying your airplane well is the most important part of a successful FNO
Post by: Matt Bromback on September 07, 2018, 06:21:00 AM
Ira,

I agree. I almost wonder if it would be worth while for VATUSA to open its own ATO. I know VATSTAR is out there, and they do a good job, but what if we had our own? Let the ARTCC's design a program, they know the airspace better than anybody. I tried to get ZOA setup with VATSTAR but it fell apart because we don't meet some of the requirements they've set for a few check rides. That's a shame because we offer some great airspace for learning. Our airports have advanced a little too far along the nextgen pipeline and decommissioned some of the legacy procedures they require, and I assume that is why I have not heard back.

Ryan,

I think you have a great idea of creating a in-house ATO at ZOA. Your absolutely right that your ARTCC's local knowledge of airspace, next gen procedures, would create a unique training environment. To be honest the training pilots would receive locally would trickle down to the rest of the ARTCCs. Most pilots don't only fly in one particular area, they might want to fly in or out of SFO as a example but they will touch other airports not in your ARTCC, this would be a win-win for everyone.
Title: Re: Why flying your airplane well is the most important part of a successful FNO
Post by: Ira Robinson on September 07, 2018, 07:53:30 AM
I tried to get ZOA setup with VATSTAR but it fell apart because we don't meet some of the requirements they've set for a few check rides.
Untrue.  It fell apart when I stopped receiving responses to emails about setting up a time to meet & discuss.  Let's get back in touch & try again to get it moving.


That is great to hear.  Now, will you commit to tightening up the level of of information and instruction your program provides regarding pilot to ATC communication, and the pilots' ability to fly basic arrival and departure procedures, regardless of what the VATSIM standards require?



Title: Re: Why flying your airplane well is the most important part of a successful FNO
Post by: Matthew Kosmoski on September 07, 2018, 10:04:28 AM
That is great to hear.  Now, will you commit to tightening up the level of of information and instruction your program provides regarding pilot to ATC communication, and the pilots' ability to fly basic arrival and departure procedures, regardless of what the VATSIM standards require?

And I'm still a bit sour following the whole attempted vatstar "premium" subscription model, personally.  The fact that those words are still on the site at all is potentially misleading to unknowing students.
Title: Re: Why flying your airplane well is the most important part of a successful FNO
Post by: Manuel Manigault on September 07, 2018, 11:45:51 AM
Ira,

I agree. I almost wonder if it would be worth while for VATUSA to open its own ATO. I know VATSTAR is out there, and they do a good job, but what if we had our own? Let the ARTCC's design a program, they know the airspace better than anybody. I tried to get ZOA setup with VATSTAR but it fell apart because we don't meet some of the requirements they've set for a few check rides. That's a shame because we offer some great airspace for learning. Our airports have advanced a little too far along the nextgen pipeline and decommissioned some of the legacy procedures they require, and I assume that is why I have not heard back.

This is a great idea. The ideal location for an ATO to base their operations would be "fly over territory" (i.e ZID, ZKC, ZLC, etc.).  Maybe this is the niche that one of these facilities could use to increase traffic and interest in their airspace.
Title: Re: Why flying your airplane well is the most important part of a successful FNO
Post by: Brin Brody on September 07, 2018, 04:43:55 PM
Ira,

I agree. I almost wonder if it would be worth while for VATUSA to open its own ATO. I know VATSTAR is out there, and they do a good job, but what if we had our own? Let the ARTCC's design a program, they know the airspace better than anybody. I tried to get ZOA setup with VATSTAR but it fell apart because we don't meet some of the requirements they've set for a few check rides. That's a shame because we offer some great airspace for learning. Our airports have advanced a little too far along the nextgen pipeline and decommissioned some of the legacy procedures they require, and I assume that is why I have not heard back.

This is a great idea. The ideal location for an ATO to base their operations would be "fly over territory" (i.e ZID, ZKC, ZLC, etc.).  Maybe this is the niche that one of these facilities could use to increase traffic and interest in their airspace.

+1...  Good place to practice your flying - where you won't be constantly hounded by airline traffic.
Title: Re: Why flying your airplane well is the most important part of a successful FNO
Post by: Robert Shearman Jr on September 07, 2018, 06:14:13 PM
I tried to get ZOA setup with VATSTAR but it fell apart because we don't meet some of the requirements they've set for a few check rides.
Untrue.  It fell apart when I stopped receiving responses to emails about setting up a time to meet & discuss.  Let's get back in touch & try again to get it moving.
That is great to hear.  Now, will you commit to tightening up the level of of information and instruction your program provides regarding pilot to ATC communication, and the pilots' ability to fly basic arrival and departure procedures, regardless of what the VATSIM standards require?
What you guys all seem to be asking for -- discussion about communication, how to fly SIDs / STARs / Approaches, how to pilot a plane rather than program an FMC -- we have all of that on our site already.  It's called the P4 rating.  What we don't have is any compulsory reason anyone should take the P4.  We could try to include it in the P1 course but why would we duplicate?  Holding a P1 basically says you know (or have acknowledged, at least) how to connect to the network, that you aren't supposed to spawn on runways or taxiways, that you know how to figure out which controller you should be talking to, you have some idea how to handle it when your weather and/or scenery doesn't match everyone else's, and that you know you're not supposed to be chasing airliners with fighter jets.  We can re-design our P1 to include the full gamut of IFR communication and procedure but then what purpose would the P4 serve?

What we lack -- and what has been discussed on this forum and VATSIM forums endlessly and without any change in status for at least eight years now -- is the ability to hold pilots accountable for any competency standards.  What use is a P4 if no one takes it?  Forget about VATSTAR -- look at the WORLDWIDE stats for the Pilot Training Division (http://ptd.vatsim.net/statistics).  387 pilots WORLDWIDE have a P4 rating.  Even in the EXTREMELY optiistic hope that they are a subset of the 80,000 members who have been active in the last six months, that's less than half of one percent.  If half of P4 holders are no longer active, then less than a QUARTER of a percent of active members have taken it.

Even for the P1, we're fighting a losing battle.  PTD as a whole issued its 10,000th rating in February of 2017.  We're now at 11,186.  That's about 60 ratings per month.  Based on the rate that new CID numbers are climbing, VATSIM gets around 2,500 new member registrations per month.  That would mean less than three percent of new members enroll in a Pilot Rating.  That assumes CID numbers are sequential; even if they're not, let's say the last digit is a checksum -- I have no idea.  That's still 250 new registered members a month and 75% of them are not taking a Pilot Rating course.

We can do everything possible as far as outreach with our programs -- which as you all know, I passionately believe in, even if some of you think you could do it better.  And if you can, then please, have at it -- I'm not in a competition.  The more resources we have to improve pilot education on the network, the better -- and if someone comes up with better methods than ours, I'll certainly take note.  But we are fighting a losing battle as long as it's completely voluntary.  Until / unless VATSIM can come up with a plan to hold pilots accountable for a basic level of competency, this is what we will face at every FNO.

And I'm still a bit sour following the whole attempted vatstar "premium" subscription model, personally.  The fact that those words are still on the site at all is potentially misleading to unknowing students.
For what it's worth, I agree with you.  But at this point (seven months later), every reference to premium subscriptions SHOULD be gone off our website.  If you see any I'm not seeing, by all means, email me screenshots, as I am as anxious as you to put that escapade behind us.
Title: Re: Why flying your airplane well is the most important part of a successful FNO
Post by: Ryan Parry on September 07, 2018, 08:11:57 PM
I tried to get ZOA setup with VATSTAR but it fell apart because we don't meet some of the requirements they've set for a few check rides.
Untrue.  It fell apart when I stopped receiving responses to emails about setting up a time to meet & discuss.  Let's get back in touch & try again to get it moving.

I see the email you sent me after this post, the response that is included in that chain is nowhere to be found in my inbox. Strange. I will get back to you privately.

Title: Re: Why flying your airplane well is the most important part of a successful FNO
Post by: Matt Bromback on September 08, 2018, 07:53:59 AM

What you guys all seem to be asking for -- discussion about communication, how to fly SIDs / STARs / Approaches, how to pilot a plane rather than program an FMC -- we have all of that on our site already.  It's called the P4 rating.  What we don't have is any compulsory reason anyone should take the P4.  We could try to include it in the P1 course but why would we duplicate?  Holding a P1 basically says you know (or have acknowledged, at least) how to connect to the network, that you aren't supposed to spawn on runways or taxiways, that you know how to figure out which controller you should be talking to, you have some idea how to handle it when your weather and/or scenery doesn't match everyone else's, and that you know you're not supposed to be chasing airliners with fighter jets.  We can re-design our P1 to include the full gamut of IFR communication and procedure but then what purpose would the P4 serve?

What we lack -- and what has been discussed on this forum and VATSIM forums endlessly and without any change in status for at least eight years now -- is the ability to hold pilots accountable for any competency standards.  What use is a P4 if no one takes it?  Forget about VATSTAR -- look at the WORLDWIDE stats for the Pilot Training Division (http://ptd.vatsim.net/statistics).  387 pilots WORLDWIDE have a P4 rating.  Even in the EXTREMELY optiistic hope that they are a subset of the 80,000 members who have been active in the last six months, that's less than half of one percent.  If half of P4 holders are no longer active, then less than a QUARTER of a percent of active members have taken it.

Even for the P1, we're fighting a losing battle.  PTD as a whole issued its 10,000th rating in February of 2017.  We're now at 11,186.  That's about 60 ratings per month.  Based on the rate that new CID numbers are climbing, VATSIM gets around 2,500 new member registrations per month.  That would mean less than three percent of new members enroll in a Pilot Rating.  That assumes CID numbers are sequential; even if they're not, let's say the last digit is a checksum -- I have no idea.  That's still 250 new registered members a month and 75% of them are not taking a Pilot Rating course.

We can do everything possible as far as outreach with our programs -- which as you all know, I passionately believe in, even if some of you think you could do it better.  And if you can, then please, have at it -- I'm not in a competition.  The more resources we have to improve pilot education on the network, the better -- and if someone comes up with better methods than ours, I'll certainly take note.  But we are fighting a losing battle as long as it's completely voluntary.  Until / unless VATSIM can come up with a plan to hold pilots accountable for a basic level of competency, this is what we will face at every FNO.

And I'm still a bit sour following the whole attempted vatstar "premium" subscription model, personally.  The fact that those words are still on the site at all is potentially misleading to unknowing students.
For what it's worth, I agree with you.  But at this point (seven months later), every reference to premium subscriptions SHOULD be gone off our website.  If you see any I'm not seeing, by all means, email me screenshots, as I am as anxious as you to put that escapade behind us.

Robert,

I can tell you have the enthusiasm and dedication to help out pilots as a whole on the network, not that many people hold that trait so thank you in advance.

Unless something drastically changes up top in VATSIM where they require every new member to go through a P1 course, the voluntary participation will most likely be the same. So it got me thinking what can we do to get people interested in taking the course and bringing the numbers up?

I was browsing around your website and I saw this:

(https://i.imgur.com/vJKeRcq.png)

It looks like you have to go through P1, P2, P3 and so forth in that order right? I was looking around VATSIMs PTD website and see no mention of having to get their pilot ratings in that particular order. Why not allow students to pick what course suits them best? Some people come to VATSIM and only want to fly airliners, well then the IMHO P4 and P5 cater much more towards that realm. If I was a pilot who loved to fly VFR with the occasional IFR in my prop, then P2-P4 might be what I want. I know the pilot ratings were meant to be a little vague in what they cover because at the end of the day we do not know what a pilot is going to fly.

Also what I think would be cool to see is aircraft specific courses to some of the most popular add-ons available. This could have even a better benefit. Single pilot, in a airliner, using advanced RNAV procedures while trying to deal with ATC is no easy task. If there were courses available that taught how to fly a PMDG 737 into a FNO as a example the pilot probably would have a lot more time to focus on ATC and his charts while flying the airplane. I think pilots would get a kick out of flying around and showing off that they have a VATSIM officially issued B737 Type Rating.

Just some thoughts to think about!

Edit: Grammar
Title: Re: Why flying your airplane well is the most important part of a successful FNO
Post by: Matthew Kosmoski on September 08, 2018, 08:00:20 AM
And I'm still a bit sour following the whole attempted vatstar "premium" subscription model, personally.  The fact that those words are still on the site at all is potentially misleading to unknowing students.
For what it's worth, I agree with you.  But at this point (seven months later), every reference to premium subscriptions SHOULD be gone off our website.  If you see any I'm not seeing, by all means, email me screenshots, as I am as anxious as you to put that escapade behind us.

The word "subscription" still exists in the student menu, and the word "premium" still exists within it:

(https://i.imgur.com/4HDC4Z8.jpg)
Title: Re: Why flying your airplane well is the most important part of a successful FNO
Post by: Robert Shearman Jr on September 08, 2018, 12:55:09 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/vJKeRcq.png)
It looks like you have to go through P1, P2, P3 and so forth in that order right?
Not quite -- you don't need P3 (VFR) before P4 (IFR).  It's a common misconception and, I guess, easy to miss at a quick glance.  I do feel that pilots should have a basic understanding of aircraft control (P2) before looking at IFR procedure (P4); otherwise, we're right back where we are now, which is pilots that only know how to fly their magenta line, right?  But the issue of our prerequisite structure is a common concern, and one I may just have to relent on.  I'll put it to my staff and see what they think.


And I'm still a bit sour following the whole attempted vatstar "premium" subscription model, personally.  The fact that those words are still on the site at all is potentially misleading to unknowing students.
For what it's worth, I agree with you.  But at this point (seven months later), every reference to premium subscriptions SHOULD be gone off our website.  If you see any I'm not seeing, by all means, email me screenshots, as I am as anxious as you to put that escapade behind us.
The word "subscription" still exists in the student menu, and the word "premium" still exists within it:
(https://i.imgur.com/4HDC4Z8.jpg)
Thank you.  Fixed (AKA eradicated).  If you catch any others, let me know.
Title: Re: Why flying your airplane well is the most important part of a successful FNO
Post by: Matthew Kosmoski on September 08, 2018, 01:57:34 PM
Not the same issue, but the word "campaign" is misspelled a couple of places on the donation page: https://i.imgur.com/2mIXg8M.png
Title: Re: Why flying your airplane well is the most important part of a successful FNO
Post by: Robert Shearman Jr on September 08, 2018, 03:31:43 PM
Not the same issue, but the word "campaign" is misspelled a couple of places on the donation page:
Haha, thanks.  Anything not directly related to the training process, I probably am not the one that wrote it.  :-)  I'll go in & fix them though.  Any other little corrections like that, feel free to PM me.
Title: Re: Why flying your airplane well is the most important part of a successful FNO
Post by: Ira Robinson on September 08, 2018, 03:52:02 PM
Robert, my apologies for taking so long to reply to your first post. I had begun my post; was about three paragraphs into it actually when my computer flashed and everything went away. Everything, including my post and the thought process going on behind it.  You know how you have an idea and then you get on a roll trying to make your point.  Well that's were I was.  Now, that being said, and having read further your comments in some of your follow up posts I have a better idea of what y our thinking is.  It also will let me be brief in my suggestion.  When  you gather your staff around you to see what they come up with tell them to BE BOLD!  That's right, BE BOLD!

The P1 includes a chapter on communicating with ATC.  Well hell, how about we expand that simple chapter so that the pilot has to not just know who does what, but actually knows how to receive instructions. Wait, BE BOLD! Let's send them home with a cheat sheet similar to a controller alias file so that he can read how to ask for a clearance, or know what the TWR controller is going to say before he says it. 

BE BOLD!  Expand the P1 training to include the basics of what they need to know, not what the VATSIM guidelines say they need to know.  Take the top three problems as decided upon by the general controller community and find a way to address them earlier in the program.

Frankly, who cares if the pilot knows how to fly a VFR pattern if all he ever does is screw up every approach he attempts. So BE BOLD! and find a way to work a simple RNAV approach into the coursework sooner rather than later.  Give your instructors the flexibility to deviate from the coursework if he sees the pilot needs work on a specific issue. Trust them to make the call to BE BOLD! and skip a subject only to replace it with another.

I could go on citing examples, but then so could everyone reading this.  You know that box that your program fits very neatly into? Well, burn it.  Then you can think outside of that box.

Good luck.

Title: Re: Why flying your airplane well is the most important part of a successful FNO
Post by: Dylan Lundberg on September 09, 2018, 06:23:53 PM
...With video evidence.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6m2Tt7JrT3Q

Thanks for everyone who flew into the ZMP FNO last Friday, it could very well have been one of the most enjoyable FNO's that I've ever worked.

But for goodness sake. Can we please figure out how to intercept the localizer? Go ahead and watch that timelapse linked above... Someone counted 44 (FORTY-FOUR) localizer overshoots. Our final controllers got their butts handed to them because of how much extra hand holding they had to do on the final because of people that can't be bothered to hit the APP button on their autopilot.

Also, fly your assigned speed please.

Also, X-Plane users with slow frame rates: https://forums.x-plane.org/index.php?/files/file/26517-autospeed/

Notice how much of an impact every overshoot has on the aircraft behind them. It snowballs really fast and if the traffic flow doesn't have natural breaks to allow the final to recover, poop hits the fan really fast.

But anyway, it was fun, thanks for flying in.


Absolutley love it. Another issue I see often, or at least in the FNOs I've controlled in (although, the last one I was available for was...last year..so I may be late to the party on this one) is when we start putting airplanes in published holds on STARS, and the pilot comes back with 'unable' or they decide to do the complete opposite of what the published hold is. Long story short, when you file a STAR and you put in your remarks "have all charts" and I give you an instruction that can be easily interpreted by reading the chart, your 'unable' response is not gonny fly.

Another faveorite of mine is when you start putting planes in holds, and they say "we are min. fuel" well, that sucks for you sir. Looks like you're going to run out of fuel over Mount St. Helens.


Just my jumbled thoughts on this thread...but long story short, Shane hit it on the nose..as usual  8) 8)
Title: Re: Why flying your airplane well is the most important part of a successful FNO
Post by: Shane VanHoven on September 17, 2018, 09:40:01 PM
:) PAA788 got it right, 38 Secs into it...flying my old B727-200 with an engine out....

Very impressive!
Title: Re: Why flying your airplane well is the most important part of a successful FNO
Post by: Tom Campagnola on October 21, 2018, 10:25:56 AM
Great Event last night.

KSTL  KMDW

Hoping we all intercepted 31C at KMDW.

made Y turnoff at KMDW,

https://youtu.be/SC5yTkK4Gp8

Great Event
SWA2272
Title: Re: Why flying your airplane well is the most important part of a successful FNO
Post by: Chris Robison on October 21, 2018, 02:18:17 PM
Robert, my apologies for taking so long to reply to your first post. I had begun my post; was about three paragraphs into it actually when my computer flashed and everything went away. Everything, including my post and the thought process going on behind it.  You know how you have an idea and then you get on a roll trying to make your point.  Well that's were I was.  Now, that being said, and having read further your comments in some of your follow up posts I have a better idea of what y our thinking is.  It also will let me be brief in my suggestion.  When  you gather your staff around you to see what they come up with tell them to BE BOLD!  That's right, BE BOLD!

The P1 includes a chapter on communicating with ATC.  Well hell, how about we expand that simple chapter so that the pilot has to not just know who does what, but actually knows how to receive instructions. Wait, BE BOLD! Let's send them home with a cheat sheet similar to a controller alias file so that he can read how to ask for a clearance, or know what the TWR controller is going to say before he says it. 

BE BOLD!  Expand the P1 training to include the basics of what they need to know, not what the VATSIM guidelines say they need to know.  Take the top three problems as decided upon by the general controller community and find a way to address them earlier in the program.

Frankly, who cares if the pilot knows how to fly a VFR pattern if all he ever does is screw up every approach he attempts. So BE BOLD! and find a way to work a simple RNAV approach into the coursework sooner rather than later.  Give your instructors the flexibility to deviate from the coursework if he sees the pilot needs work on a specific issue. Trust them to make the call to BE BOLD! and skip a subject only to replace it with another.

I could go on citing examples, but then so could everyone reading this.  You know that box that your program fits very neatly into? Well, burn it.  Then you can think outside of that box.

Good luck.
I'm late to the game here.
When I was on the committee for the the pilot ratings (created 2 ATOs in the past), we made the P1 as basic as possible. To echo Ira above, Be Bold. Create an expanded P1 rating that could include other basic topics or hot topic issues. Going above and beyond the PTS is always encouraged.
Title: Re: Why flying your airplane well is the most important part of a successful FNO
Post by: Tom Campagnola on April 28, 2019, 11:36:02 AM
Flew the BOS FNO on Fri night. What an experience and how everyone worked together to get into KBOS. However,

While being vectored to ROBUC, in heavy storms, the ZIBO MOD B737 lost airspeed and lost control. I got my finger on the PAUSE button and had to disconnect...

Better lucknext time...
Tom
Title: Re: Why flying your airplane well is the most important part of a successful FNO
Post by: Jackson Gilliam on April 28, 2019, 11:55:15 AM
Flew the BOS FNO on Fri night. What an experience and how everyone worked together to get into KBOS. However,

While being vectored to ROBUC, in heavy storms, the ZIBO MOD B737 lost airspeed and lost control. I got my finger on the PAUSE button and had to disconnect...

Better lucknext time...
Tom

Unfortunately that happened to a lot of people that night. The controllers did the best they could, but I personally was experiencing gains or loss of up to 30 kts, which I couldn’t help. Good job to the dudes working BOS for doing what you could in those circumstances.
Title: Re: Why flying your airplane well is the most important part of a successful FNO
Post by: Dhruv Kalra on April 28, 2019, 04:03:28 PM
Flew the BOS FNO on Fri night. What an experience and how everyone worked together to get into KBOS. However,

While being vectored to ROBUC, in heavy storms, the ZIBO MOD B737 lost airspeed and lost control. I got my finger on the PAUSE button and had to disconnect...

Better lucknext time...
Tom

And this is why most pilots on VATSIM need to be better about taking reroutes around storms. The number of people I have outright refuse deviations or reroutes around the wx and then complain about turbulence blows my mind.
Title: Re: Why flying your airplane well is the most important part of a successful FNO
Post by: Don Desfosse on April 29, 2019, 08:39:52 AM
If I had a nickel for every time someone reported severe turbulence and loss of speed or altitude control, and I calmly replied, "roger, when able maintain 7,000 feet, 210 knots" last Friday night, I could probably buy a grande venti (whatever their extra large is) Starbucks coffee. :)  Flown through that (VATSIM and RW) and it ain't fun; glad there wasn't much turbulence in my chair in front of a radar scope the other night. ;)
Title: Re: Why flying your airplane well is the most important part of a successful FNO
Post by: Justin Alderman on April 29, 2019, 03:33:06 PM
Yes! Please turn the aircraft BEFORE you readback. Aviate, navigate, communicate. All too often, I see people blowing through the LOC because they take too much time reading back the approach clearance, and not turning the airplane.

#1 most common problem with pilots on the network IMHO. It's not the worst issue, but for sure the most common mistake out of the lot of mistakes.  Especially important when you only have 1 pilot trying to fly a jetliner.
Title: Re: Why flying your airplane well is the most important part of a successful FNO
Post by: Shane VanHoven on May 09, 2019, 10:20:52 PM
Flew the BOS FNO on Fri night. What an experience and how everyone worked together to get into KBOS. However,

While being vectored to ROBUC, in heavy storms, the ZIBO MOD B737 lost airspeed and lost control. I got my finger on the PAUSE button and had to disconnect...

Better lucknext time...
Tom

And this is why most pilots on VATSIM need to be better about taking reroutes around storms. The number of people I have outright refuse deviations or reroutes around the wx and then complain about turbulence blows my mind.

Isn't this the same night where the real facilities completely shut off the ROBUC flow cause of weather? Good thing brains are used IRL  ::)
Title: Re: Why flying your airplane well is the most important part of a successful FNO
Post by: Dhruv Kalra on May 10, 2019, 12:46:47 AM
Flew the BOS FNO on Fri night. What an experience and how everyone worked together to get into KBOS. However,

While being vectored to ROBUC, in heavy storms, the ZIBO MOD B737 lost airspeed and lost control. I got my finger on the PAUSE button and had to disconnect...

Better lucknext time...
Tom

And this is why most pilots on VATSIM need to be better about taking reroutes around storms. The number of people I have outright refuse deviations or reroutes around the wx and then complain about turbulence blows my mind.

Isn't this the same night where the real facilities completely shut off the ROBUC flow cause of weather? Good thing brains are used IRL  ::)

Yep. R/w ZBW really got into the spirit of “FNO: The ROBUC STOPS HERE”. Literally.
Title: Re: Why flying your airplane well is the most important part of a successful FNO
Post by: Jeremy Peterson on May 10, 2019, 09:07:17 AM
If you can get through the weather, it’s considered open. The constraint during that event was moreso the airport landing one runway which had a much greater impact than closing the MERIT/JFK transitions on the ROBUC. PCT traffic was routed onto JFUND2 so it was really only a PHL/N90 issue.
Title: Re: Why flying your airplane well is the most important part of a successful FNO
Post by: Lance Williams on May 11, 2019, 10:44:32 PM
I fly so sporadically now so this observation may be irrelevant, however I feel there is such a lack of "regular" atc online lately that any event draws 80% of the daily traffic. Yes, that's a made up stat just like most, however it just seems ATC along with Pilots have no idea how to handel their respective "equipment..." ATC should be issuing vectors and speed restrictions to avoid the inevitable final approach load described above. Pilots should use VATSPY or whatever map client to help ATC out the same way.

I find it a bit comical that ATC is here complaining about pilots ability to fly (I get it, 60% of the pilots on VATSIM probably would be better off trying to put a round block into a square hole, but...) when most of the issues I experience, again in limited time recently, are inept controllers.

It is what it is though. You can't have a free network of both pilots and ATC without these issues...
Title: Re: Why flying your airplane well is the most important part of a successful FNO
Post by: Dhruv Kalra on May 12, 2019, 08:10:15 AM
I fly so sporadically now so this observation may be irrelevant, however I feel there is such a lack of "regular" atc online lately that any event draws 80% of the daily traffic. Yes, that's a made up stat just like most, however it just seems ATC along with Pilots have no idea how to handel their respective "equipment..." ATC should be issuing vectors and speed restrictions to avoid the inevitable final approach load described above. Pilots should use VATSPY or whatever map client to help ATC out the same way.

I find it a bit comical that ATC is here complaining about pilots ability to fly (I get it, 60% of the pilots on VATSIM probably would be better off trying to put a round block into a square hole, but...) when most of the issues I experience, again in limited time recently, are inept controllers.

It is what it is though. You can't have a free network of both pilots and ATC without these issues...

You’re not wrong. I’ve lamented on more than one occasion that controllers don’t just staff up anymore for the sake of being online. It almost takes an event to draw people out of the woodwork to provide ATC. Maybe I’m just being nostalgic, but you used to see a lot more ATC coverage on random weeknights, and the traffic was certainly there.
Title: Re: Why flying your airplane well is the most important part of a successful FNO
Post by: Jonathan Peck on May 12, 2019, 11:25:57 PM
I fly so sporadically now so this observation may be irrelevant, however I feel there is such a lack of "regular" atc online lately that any event draws 80% of the daily traffic. Yes, that's a made up stat just like most, however it just seems ATC along with Pilots have no idea how to handel their respective "equipment..." ATC should be issuing vectors and speed restrictions to avoid the inevitable final approach load described above. Pilots should use VATSPY or whatever map client to help ATC out the same way.

I find it a bit comical that ATC is here complaining about pilots ability to fly (I get it, 60% of the pilots on VATSIM probably would be better off trying to put a round block into a square hole, but...) when most of the issues I experience, again in limited time recently, are inept controllers.

It is what it is though. You can't have a free network of both pilots and ATC without these issues...

You’re not wrong. I’ve lamented on more than one occasion that controllers don’t just staff up anymore for the sake of being online. It almost takes an event to draw people out of the woodwork to provide ATC. Maybe I’m just being nostalgic, but you used to see a lot more ATC coverage on random weeknights, and the traffic was certainly there.

Perhaps when the new voice codec is launched, traffic levels and ATC coverage will improve.