We don't talk enough...

Rick Rump

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Re: We don't talk enough...
« Reply #45 on: November 10, 2018, 01:32:29 PM »
Nolan,
I was not made aware of this and am unsure if Brandon is. Can you please email both of us where the controller was not compliant with grp, their name, and CID please. The TAs should be informed and letting us know, along with their counterpart at the controllers home facility.
Thanks!
VATUSA Deputy Director Emeritus
Former ZDC ATM, DATM, TA & WM
VATSIM Supervisor | Team 5

Toby Rice

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Re: We don't talk enough...
« Reply #46 on: November 10, 2018, 06:03:10 PM »
Dhruv, Ryan, Kyle, and Noah have great points! For me and a lot of people, the fun of VATSIM comes from the realistic experience and steep learning curve. I thoroughly enjoy being well informed with the 7110.65 and helping my students do the same and be "great" virtual controllers. It's all about the "buzz" of being able to do it "right," just like the real professionals do!
Toby Rice
Jacksonville ARTCC
ACE Team | Former HCF ATM | Former ATC Instructor

Matthew Kosmoski

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Re: We don't talk enough...
« Reply #47 on: November 10, 2018, 06:11:49 PM »
Simply passing off a student because he tried his best is unacceptable.

I'm pretty sure nobody (especially me, since I know it's directed at me) is advocating participation trophies. As was said before, there's a spectrum.  There is something between participation trophies and ultra-realism.

If ratings that are unearned are being issued, that's an entirely different matter that needs to be addressed... but fumbling a clearance or two on an OTS, with test nerves in full swing, shouldn't be a reason to fail somebody.  The standard needs to allow for imperfection that doesn't detract from the quality of service offered.  Remember, there are things you can imperfectly execute that won't impact the pilots or your fellow controllers in the slightest.

Rick Rump

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Re: We don't talk enough...
« Reply #48 on: November 10, 2018, 06:59:04 PM »
Right now we are looking at 90% of clearances using prescribed phraseology as being satisfactory. Instructors can pass with slightly less if the student did not get the 90% because they flipped something around if they messed up the first two but the next 9 were correct.
VATUSA Deputy Director Emeritus
Former ZDC ATM, DATM, TA & WM
VATSIM Supervisor | Team 5

Matthew Kosmoski

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Re: We don't talk enough...
« Reply #49 on: November 10, 2018, 09:27:15 PM »
Right now we are looking at 90% of clearances using prescribed phraseology as being satisfactory. Instructors can pass with slightly less if the student did not get the 90% because they flipped something around if they messed up the first two but the next 9 were correct.

Depends how many they give, I really suppose.  If I get the feeling they know what they're doing and it's just nerves, I'll give as much latitude as is appropriate, but it's generally easy to tell the difference between nervous and disqualified.

Kyle Ekas

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Re: We don't talk enough...
« Reply #50 on: November 11, 2018, 05:09:17 AM »
Oh boy! I'm late to the party!

Instead of 2 cents I'll give my 5 bucks instead, because I'm not cheap!  8)

Thank you Derek for spurring on this discussion. I think it is one that really needs to be had.

First off, I think Meg's point about some of these issues being described are definitely a behavioral/cultural problem within the ARTCCs, is very true. Culture is such a huge part of any environment where there is groups of people coalescing around something, and that is often overlooked. I think it is also true to say that, when you are a leader, YOU set the tone of conversation wherever you are leading. People are looking to you for what is appropriate in a given scenario. That is part of being a leader. The other side of that coin is listening to all points of view from your controllers. Dhruv is absolutely right when he says, "You can't run a volunteer organization as a dictatorship." Although, I'm quite certain he is alluding to something different than what I am alluding to, the point stands. Inclusion is crucial for an "all-volunteer (anything)".

To Tony's point, (and I can also speak from my 8 years of experience on this network) some ARTCCs are not as welcoming to division staff as others. I know that some ARTCCs wish to have a more "distant" relationship with division staff which they feel allows them more autonomy. I don't believe that more autonomy is actually achieved but, whatever floats their boat I suppose.

I have always advocated for cohesiveness, open communication, and reasonable compromise wherever possible. I think if I were to start rehashing the "realism vs video game" argument for the 1000x time in my post, that would not serve much purpose. I will simply say as I always have that, like most things in life, balance is truly essential.

There is a lot being referenced in this thread that I completely know nothing about, and thus will not be making any "left field" speculations about. I WILL however speak to what I personally have experienced from this division staff, which goes back to when USA1 was our ATD in the Southern Region. I think it is safe to say that the previous USA1 was quite a popular guy with many people, including myself. During his time he accomplished a lot, and was well received in his accomplishments by many. There is ups and downs in any task at hand, things do not always work out how we plan. Rarely do they ever, in fact. I will say plainly that, I think throwing around words like "dictator" and "regime" are truly not an accurate representation of who I know Mark to be as a human being. Not the person that I have spoken with on multiple occasions anyways. I think if someone were to throw those words around, they better have some serious evidence of malfeasance behind them. Otherwise, that would be a somewhat malicious and damaging thing to do to someone's character/reputation. If little or no information is known, all you can do is say, "I don't know, I need to find out more." Otherwise it leads to speculation, assumption, and finger pointing. ALL without knowing the true facts of the matter. I agree with Dylan when he essentially says the division is in place for a reason, let the division function as it should. Oversight is critical, but if we make a habit of second guessing more than our fair share of decisions that division makes, we risk discouraging division staff from taking ANY action whatsoever when it is TRULY needed, for fear that it will be perceived as another "dictatorial" action. Let the division do division things, you worry about doing ARTCC things.

The people who take up division level positions do not have to have this adversarial relationship with ARTCCs. I think some ARTCCs might say that an adversarial relationship with them is healthy or beneficial to them in some way. Based on my experience, I can't say that I agree. You can choose to look at certain issues as, "the higher ups are coming down on me, and they are doing this thing that is totally wrong!" OR you can choose to look at certain issues as, "I really don't agree with this, but I am going to continue advocating for my position, and make sure my voice is heard." IF your point is correct, eventually they will see the reasoning behind your logic. It doesn't have to be so confrontational between the division and the ARTCCs as it often has been in the past (in my experience).

Regarding ARTCC to ARTCC relations, we can all agree that working effectively with our neighbors is super key no matter where you are. We cannot pick up our ARTCC borders like a set of jeans we are stepping into, and move it into the middle of the ocean when communications break down or disagreements occur. I do however believe that it is somewhat "par for the course" that ARTCCs are going to have a competitive or "gang" nature to them. That is just human nature, really. Since our division is so large and diverse, it makes it a lot easier for that part of our nature to manifest into little "fiefdoms", if you will. The solution to this of course is to realize that, we may not all have the same goals in mind for the "ideal VATUSA", but we all agree, making this division the best of the best is an idea worth fighting for still. So do that, in any ways that you know how to do it. Passive aggressiveness and sarcasm is toxic to effective communication, and only serves to alienate participants of the conversation. Don't do that.

I have always said that working together wherever possible is super important. There IS going to be lots of things we disagree on. The places where we do agree? That's common ground! Play to those strengths FIRST, and THEN hash out why we disagree, or if we even really DO disagree, OR if it is just a misunderstanding of language used, or even concepts that others have not even considered/explored. Like what others have said, think of viable solutions to problems in this division.

Also just touching on some other things in this thread regarding improvement of communication. Everyone's schedule is different, everyone's lives and responsibilities are ephemeral and now more than ever, people are on the go. We all understand this. I think where the communications really start to break down and the frustration starts to set in, is when NO communication is reciprocated for extended periods of time. If I reach out to someone in a staff position, I don't expect to hear from them within 24hrs, but I DO expect to hear from them within 7 days. That seems quite reasonable in my view. I think some of the questioning of ATDs in this thread really stems from some of that communication break down.

To the ATDs now and in the future: Your consistent presence and active communication within your regions' ARTCCs is strongly encouraged, welcomed (at least from me), and vital to the success of your region. It's YOUR region, and the ARTCCs within are your children. Treat them with care, and monitor their status frequently. Talk to the ARTCC staff AND controllers in your region when you come into their VoIP server. Ask them how you can serve them better. I have always felt in my 8 years on the network that ATDs lacked visibility with the ARTCCs they serve. I think doing those things can only serve to help your regional outcomes, and VATUSA as a whole in the long run.

I do feel strongly that even though our organizational structure is very "top-down" in nature, at the ARTCC level there should be the ability for regular controllers to give regular feedback about their ARTCC staff. The goal here is NOT to micro-manage, but to provide ATDs with status indicators so that when an issue builds on itself over several months, it doesn't end up blind-siding them out of the blue. ARTCC staff needs to be held accountable, and ATD communication with just ARTCC staff is not enough. If the preferred method is a "facility advisory board" of long standing ARTCC members, or a "community organizer" so be it, but I feel strongly that something has to change on that front. Controllers should have the right to communicate to VATUSA who they want their leader to be, and their voices heard. There should never be a case where half of an ARTCC feels ostracized and excluded from the rest of the group, whether that be new member or old members, that should never be happening.

No, you cannot please everybody, that is not possible. BUT, most people are reasonable, if you throw them a bone they'll probably chew on it, even if it's a smaller bone then you threw the day before.

My new novel is finally finished!  :D

Thanks for the discussion.

-K

Mark Hubbert

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Re: We don't talk enough...
« Reply #51 on: November 11, 2018, 12:12:43 PM »
Quote
When it comes down to it, lets just all remember we do this for FUN and are volunteering OUR TIME to this organization and hobby
 
 Key Word FUN !!!!!  WoooHoooo

Quote
The beauty is that we have the ability to make our personal experience as realistic as we want provided we choose to exceed the required minimum.
I agree.  Set a basic standard that everybody has to do to participate and when you feel you are ready or want to pursue more do it.  This idea should also lend its hand to motivation.  Peer pressure can be a good thing.
Mark Hubbert
Division Director VATUSA Retired

Nickolas Christopher

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Re: We don't talk enough...
« Reply #52 on: November 11, 2018, 01:17:17 PM »
I think Vento and Dhruv hit some good points.

To echo, I think what is lacking is relationship building between VATUSA and ARTCCs. I can’t remember the last time someone from VATUSA contacted me to see what’s going on and to ask what they can do to help.

The forums aren’t the best place for discussion. So many threads devolve into flame wars and negativity. And, text loses most of the nuances of effective communication.

ZLA Air Traffic Manager

Shane VanHoven

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Re: We don't talk enough...
« Reply #53 on: November 12, 2018, 03:27:42 PM »
By the way, if people want absolute realism, I hear there's some federal agency that'll pay you for absolute realism.  Can anybody confirm?

Wait what? That sounds like a blast! Sign me up!
Shane VanHoven
Minneapolis ARTCC
Private pilot, Instrument, ASEL
FAA Air Traffic Control, ORD ATCT

Chris Hadden

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Re: We don't talk enough...
« Reply #54 on: November 12, 2018, 04:47:14 PM »
      Getting back on the original topic of communication & transparency, I would like to see some sort of plan, or consistent updates that each of the division staff have. Everyone in this division should have the ability to access this and get a picture of the image that you as division staff are creating. This could be something like a document that is prepared quarterly or monthly to show the progress you guys are making. Mani provided me a document after my first post on here of his plans and improvements for the NE region and it is truly something I think every staff member in the division should be doing. Its not just the fact that you need to be transparent and communicate with us. But we have to hold you accountable too. Mark, Tony, Brandon, the whole crew should be holding us accountable if we aren't doing what we are supposed to or we are inactive. And you should expect the same from us. It is a two way street, All the ARTCC staff and controllers here in the division are here for you, and we expect you to be there for us.

     One thing positive thing that I like is the idea of, is the new training master classes. And really am looking forward to see a good turnout and result from it. This is one great step in connecting people from all across the division, working/learning together using real world knowledge and resources. Nice job Brandon and Rick.

     In terms of inter-facility communication, I wish that every ARTCC would talk with each other regularly and engage one another in their everyday duties. Go in the other facility's TS/Discord when you are controlling and hang out. Coordinate and create a bond between each facility is continually being strengthened, not broken. I believe the best thing would be to SHARE RESOURCES. Not lock them up behind a website login. Get together, MEET, TALK to one another. Take the benefits of one facility and implement a similar or better thing into the other. Most importantly, be willing to HELP! Of course people will be against this, but doing this very practice will make US and the division stronger. Who cares if your facility gives away something that makes them different than everyone else, after all, we are all in the same division, and same region, same network and "the same team". And as previously mentioned a few times now, this is supposed to be FUN, and enjoyable hobby for the all of us. Its not fun when a few of the members who are involved in this discussion want to bicker back and forth to be "politically correct". And create problems rather than fix them. It's not fun when no-one wants to collaborate, talk to each other, and most importantly have fun.
Chris Hadden
Training Administrator
vZAU ARTCC

Re: We don't talk enough...
« Reply #55 on: December 07, 2018, 08:51:21 AM »
I agree Chris. Especially with the inter-ARTCC communication, I think the division would be a much better place if SOPs, LOAs, Sector Files, etc was public, at least to division members. I also would like to see guys from other ARTCCs just to be able to poke their head into other ARTCCs and have a nice chat once in a while. It feels like we are all cooped up in our own ARTCCs and often forget that this is a community. Same with training standards. If we made more homologous training standards and material, it would prevent the constant (ZXX is a cert factory, ZXX is way too difficult, etc.) I hope that some day this becomes a reality and I'm able to simply go into another ARTCCs pubs and figure out who I need to handoff to. Or better yet, just ask them in their teamspeak! Just my $0.02
Prithvisagar Shivaraman
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New York ARTCC

Matthew Kosmoski

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Re: We don't talk enough...
« Reply #56 on: December 07, 2018, 01:28:17 PM »
I agree Chris. Especially with the inter-ARTCC communication, I think the division would be a much better place if SOPs, LOAs, Sector Files, etc was public, at least to division members. I also would like to see guys from other ARTCCs just to be able to poke their head into other ARTCCs and have a nice chat once in a while. It feels like we are all cooped up in our own ARTCCs and often forget that this is a community. Same with training standards. If we made more homologous training standards and material, it would prevent the constant (ZXX is a cert factory, ZXX is way too difficult, etc.) I hope that some day this becomes a reality and I'm able to simply go into another ARTCCs pubs and figure out who I need to handoff to. Or better yet, just ask them in their teamspeak! Just my $0.02

The simple socialization may solve the [MOD - This is a family forum] talking, too.  Look down here... I had neighbors that accused me of being a cert factory -- and now that we all spend time together, that's an accusation of a bygone era.

Nowadays, the only folks who talk smack about ZHU are folks we never hear from or see around...  And they're always welcome to drop by.

Shane VanHoven

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Re: We don't talk enough...
« Reply #57 on: December 07, 2018, 03:05:18 PM »
I had neighbors that accused me of being a cert factory -- and now that we all spend time together, that's an accusation of a bygone era.

Ehhhhh not so sure about that.
Shane VanHoven
Minneapolis ARTCC
Private pilot, Instrument, ASEL
FAA Air Traffic Control, ORD ATCT

Matthew Kosmoski

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Re: We don't talk enough...
« Reply #58 on: December 07, 2018, 04:17:26 PM »
I had neighbors that accused me of being a cert factory -- and now that we all spend time together, that's an accusation of a bygone era.

Ehhhhh not so sure about that.

<16:17:20> "Matthew Kosmoski": !lastseen *vanhoven*
<16:17:20> "ZHUBot": No clients found in the database!

Shane VanHoven

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Re: We don't talk enough...
« Reply #59 on: December 07, 2018, 04:50:26 PM »
I had neighbors that accused me of being a cert factory -- and now that we all spend time together, that's an accusation of a bygone era.

Ehhhhh not so sure about that.

<16:17:20> "Matthew Kosmoski": !lastseen *vanhoven*
<16:17:20> "ZHUBot": No clients found in the database!

Sorry, I don't speak gibberish.
Shane VanHoven
Minneapolis ARTCC
Private pilot, Instrument, ASEL
FAA Air Traffic Control, ORD ATCT