VATUSA Forums
General => Events => Topic started by: Jeremy Peterson on January 13, 2020, 08:34:45 AM
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(https://i.imgur.com/nd5DL26.png)
Fly into Philadelphia International Airport during our FNO! Monitor this post as well as other platforms for routing, coordination, and other notices leading up to the event!
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Reference PHL FNO, ZNY will be doing a few things differently than past FNOs:
- PHL remains the event airport and you're encouraged to fly in!
- EWR (Newark Liberty) will be staffed to accommodate diversions. It will be the first choice alternate for ZNY.
- MDT (Harrisburg International) will be the second alternate diversion airport with staffing to support diversions.
- ABE (Allentown) will be the third alternate diversion airport to be staffed for diversions.
- Note: JFK diversions will be given lowest priority for diversions due to staffing and demand balancing.
- If you want to divert to an airport other than those three, you WILL be subject to additional delay (the time it takes to coordinate, notify, and approve your change of destination).
- In order to be given expeditious priority after diverting, "DVRSN" must be present in the flight plan remarks. Note: if there is a ground stop, ground delay program, or AFP in effect, "DVRSN" recovery flights are not automatically exempt and may receive an EDCT.
Stay tuned for more updates and see ya on the scopes!
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Only one attempt at a landing? I love everything you guys do in terms of event planning but there's too many variables to make that a hard and fast rule...
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Only one attempt at a landing? I love everything you guys do in terms of event planning but there's too many variables to make that a hard and fast rule...
The idea is that we say it's what we're gonna do on paper but adapt it during the operational phase (and obviously abide by VATSIM policy).
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Pilots will have exactly one (1) opportunity to land. If the pilot goes around, they must divert unless one of the following conditions exists:
Pretty sure you can't do this in any way, shape, or form.
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Only one attempt at a landing? I love everything you guys do in terms of event planning but there's too many variables to make that a hard and fast rule...
The idea is that we say it's what we're gonna do on paper but adapt it during the operational phase (and obviously abide by VATSIM policy).
Then why have this even written out? So if the controller messes up we have to divert?
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- Pilots will have exactly one (1) opportunity to land. If the pilot goes around, they must divert unless one of the following conditions exists:
This is something that absolutely CAN NOT be done on VATSIM. Please remove this language from this post. We expect that ZNY will be accommodating and allow additional approaches for aircraft that may have to go around.
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- Pilots will have exactly one (1) opportunity to land. If the pilot goes around, they must divert unless one of the following conditions exists:
This is something that absolutely CAN NOT be done on VATSIM. Please remove this language from this post. We expect that ZNY will be accommodating and allow additional approaches for aircraft that may have to go around.
Language removed[/list]
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It was done for WorldFlight coming into DCA this past November, but, that was (as far as I understood it) a condition that was proposed and agreed to BY the WorldFlight participants, not imposed on them by ZDC or any VATUSA entity.
I'm no authority; I'm just stating to add some context, in case that WorldFlight example was on any of the ZNY staff's mind when devising the idea.
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Pilots should have an alternate planned just in case. Winds look like they do favor a high go around rate tomorrow. Load up them fuel tanks.
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You’re a braver man than I if you don’t bring fuel for an alternate and extra hold to an FNO, regardless of location
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Pilots should have an alternate planned just in case. Winds look like they do favor a high go around rate tomorrow. Load up them fuel tanks.
Runway 35 is useful in bad winds!
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Runway 35 is useful in bad winds!
35 Would be worse with the crosswind tonight actually...
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What a mess. DC Center on 133.72 couldn't even except traffic from Indy Center. Five planes had to diverted and two just disconnected because they got tired of holding for over an hour. They could except traffic from Atlanta however during my time holding as I watched planes cross over from Atlanta sectors. Indy Center had to keep apologizing to everyone. https://prntscr.com/rx3b1w
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Well I can't really do much when Indy tries to hand me 6 people all within 20 miles when I told him that I needed 40 MIT and then he tried to drop one guy and switch him to me because I couldn't take his handoff. I also had 5-8 people in the hold at GVE so I couldn't take more people in that hold so Indy offered to hold them for me. We could take the ATL guys because we can switch them between the GVE and FAK transition and there was another controller covering the FAK transition on the PATTS arrival.
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Taxi times were record highs 40+ minutes to even get to gate, only using one entry point and exit point out of the ramp really ins't efficient IMO, as someone who works at PHL IRL that's not how its done (I'm fully aware this is VATSIM, this is an opinion.....)
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What a mess. DC Center on 133.72 couldn't even except traffic from Indy Center. Five planes had to diverted and two just disconnected because they got tired of holding for over an hour. They could except traffic from Atlanta however during my time holding as I watched planes cross over from Atlanta sectors. Indy Center had to keep apologizing to everyone. https://prntscr.com/rx3b1w
Over 200 arrivals into 1 airport, you're going to have to expect holds. Enroute control needs spacing as Odinn mentioned. Inadequate spacing from controller to controller adds extra and unnecessary workload, when that accepting controller already has aircraft holding in their airspace. So rather congest the ZDC airspace with more aircraft, hand-offs were refused. Everyone is trying to get into PHL. FNOs have gotten tremendously busy and chaotic these past few weeks. Patience and understanding is greatly appreciated.
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What a mess. DC Center on 133.72 couldn't even except traffic from Indy Center. Five planes had to diverted and two just disconnected because they got tired of holding for over an hour. They could except traffic from Atlanta however during my time holding as I watched planes cross over from Atlanta sectors. Indy Center had to keep apologizing to everyone. https://prntscr.com/rx3b1w
Indy should be apologizing to everyone for not doing their part in trying to keep this event afloat - they were asked for 40 miles in trail, and they ended up with 5 MIT at the boundary to ZDC. After the handoffs were refused, they then dropped the track on planes and shipped them to ZDC anyways, which is a violation of many air traffic regulations. So, they were spun back into ZID airspace.
Don't blame ZDC - they've been doing as well as they could for an event that had more operations during this event than the last 12 hours real world.
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What a mess. DC Center on 133.72 couldn't even except traffic from Indy Center. Five planes had to diverted and two just disconnected because they got tired of holding for over an hour. They could except traffic from Atlanta however during my time holding as I watched planes cross over from Atlanta sectors. Indy Center had to keep apologizing to everyone. https://prntscr.com/rx3b1w
Indy should be apologizing to everyone for not doing their part in trying to keep this event afloat - they were asked for 40 miles in trail, and they ended up with 5 MIT at the boundary to ZDC. After the handoffs were refused, they then dropped the track on planes and shipped them to ZDC anyways, which is a violation of many air traffic regulations. So, they were spun back into ZID airspace.
Don't blame ZDC - they've been doing as well as they could for an event that had more operations during this event than the last 12 hours real world.
Than maybe all the controllers for the event need to work together instead of blaming each other and having pilots fly circles all over the place for hours. Pilots are following the instructions given and were the ones getting hosed because of the lack of coordination between controllers. Sounds like a controller issue when neighboring ARTCC's cant work it out. Maybe FNO procedures need to be re-looked at due to the increased traffic loads due to real world situations. The last 3 FNO's have been like this.
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What a mess. DC Center on 133.72 couldn't even except traffic from Indy Center. Five planes had to diverted and two just disconnected because they got tired of holding for over an hour. They could except traffic from Atlanta however during my time holding as I watched planes cross over from Atlanta sectors. Indy Center had to keep apologizing to everyone. https://prntscr.com/rx3b1w
Indy should be apologizing to everyone for not doing their part in trying to keep this event afloat - they were asked for 40 miles in trail, and they ended up with 5 MIT at the boundary to ZDC. After the handoffs were refused, they then dropped the track on planes and shipped them to ZDC anyways, which is a violation of many air traffic regulations. So, they were spun back into ZID airspace.
Don't blame ZDC - they've been doing as well as they could for an event that had more operations during this event than the last 12 hours real world.
Than maybe all the controllers for the event need to work together instead of blaming each other and having pilots fly circles all over the place for hours. Pilots are following the instructions given and were the ones getting hosed because of the lack of coordination between controllers. Maybe FNO procedures need to be re-looked at due to the increased traffic loads due to real world situations. The last 3 FNO's have been like this.
ZID was asked to provide miles in trail over ATC chat, private message, and through our traffic management units - we made many attempts to coordinate with the facility.
Pilots following instructions does not equal controllers not doing their jobs. In times like this where traffic has been ramped up ten fold, we need controllers to do their part and help out each other. When they don't, pilots suffer.
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What a mess. DC Center on 133.72 couldn't even except traffic from Indy Center. Five planes had to diverted and two just disconnected because they got tired of holding for over an hour. They could except traffic from Atlanta however during my time holding as I watched planes cross over from Atlanta sectors. Indy Center had to keep apologizing to everyone. https://prntscr.com/rx3b1w
Indy should be apologizing to everyone for not doing their part in trying to keep this event afloat - they were asked for 40 miles in trail, and they ended up with 5 MIT at the boundary to ZDC. After the handoffs were refused, they then dropped the track on planes and shipped them to ZDC anyways, which is a violation of many air traffic regulations. So, they were spun back into ZID airspace.
Don't blame ZDC - they've been doing as well as they could for an event that had more operations during this event than the last 12 hours real world.
Than maybe all the controllers for the event need to work together instead of blaming each other and having pilots fly circles all over the place for hours. Pilots are following the instructions given and were the ones getting hosed because of the lack of coordination between controllers. Maybe FNO procedures need to be re-looked at due to the increased traffic loads due to real world situations. The last 3 FNO's have been like this.
None of the controllers were blaming anyone else. You brought that up when you began blaming ZDC. There are plans in place for FNOs, there were restrictions in place tonight, they were not followed. As a ZDC controller, I apologize for the inconvenience that you suffered. Next time will let you proceed direct to the field while everyone else is holding.
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What a mess. DC Center on 133.72 couldn't even except traffic from Indy Center. Five planes had to diverted and two just disconnected because they got tired of holding for over an hour. They could except traffic from Atlanta however during my time holding as I watched planes cross over from Atlanta sectors. Indy Center had to keep apologizing to everyone. https://prntscr.com/rx3b1w
Indy should be apologizing to everyone for not doing their part in trying to keep this event afloat - they were asked for 40 miles in trail, and they ended up with 5 MIT at the boundary to ZDC. After the handoffs were refused, they then dropped the track on planes and shipped them to ZDC anyways, which is a violation of many air traffic regulations. So, they were spun back into ZID airspace.
Don't blame ZDC - they've been doing as well as they could for an event that had more operations during this event than the last 12 hours real world.
Than maybe all the controllers for the event need to work together instead of blaming each other and having pilots fly circles all over the place for hours. Pilots are following the instructions given and were the ones getting hosed because of the lack of coordination between controllers. Sounds like a controller issue when neighboring ARTCC's cant work it out. Maybe FNO procedures need to be re-looked at due to the increased traffic loads due to real world situations. The last 3 FNO's have been like this.
Another thing that I didn't mention - airports like PHL with one primary arrival runway can usually run around a 42-48 aircraft arrival rate per hour - at one point, PHL had over 240 arrivals. The airport cannot physically handle as many planes as we were throwing at it.
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Tim
I'm not going to get into it with you because you hold a position in ZDC. I reported where I had the problem and how we as the pilots were getting hosed because the folks on the ground couldn't work together. Your comment about letting proceed just proves there is a problem by your answer. When we question the ATC pilots are to blame.
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“Hi. I am one of a record number of pilots. I wanted to arrive into an airport at a rate equaling or bettering real world. Can’t ATC be better??”
The pilots decided this is record breaking time. Even if half those pilots became ATC instead they wouldn’t be in a position to help these events yet. FNOs have gone insane. I vote for crossfire season, Summer 2020.
(Also when you see these events, try the nearby minor fields. Those are staffed up with eager students earlier in their development process.)
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What a mess. DC Center on 133.72 couldn't even except traffic from Indy Center. Five planes had to diverted and two just disconnected because they got tired of holding for over an hour. They could except traffic from Atlanta however during my time holding as I watched planes cross over from Atlanta sectors. Indy Center had to keep apologizing to everyone. https://prntscr.com/rx3b1w
Indy should be apologizing to everyone for not doing their part in trying to keep this event afloat - they were asked for 40 miles in trail, and they ended up with 5 MIT at the boundary to ZDC. After the handoffs were refused, they then dropped the track on planes and shipped them to ZDC anyways, which is a violation of many air traffic regulations. So, they were spun back into ZID airspace.
Don't blame ZDC - they've been doing as well as they could for an event that had more operations during this event than the last 12 hours real world.
Than maybe all the controllers for the event need to work together instead of blaming each other and having pilots fly circles all over the place for hours. Pilots are following the instructions given and were the ones getting hosed because of the lack of coordination between controllers. Sounds like a controller issue when neighboring ARTCC's cant work it out. Maybe FNO procedures need to be re-looked at due to the increased traffic loads due to real world situations. The last 3 FNO's have been like this.
Another thing that I didn't mention - airports like PHL with one primary arrival runway can usually run around a 42-48 aircraft arrival rate per hour - at one point, PHL had over 240 arrivals. The airport cannot physically handle as many planes as we were throwing at it.
Very simply FNO's must include other Major airports in the area. It should have been called East Coast Ops and everything from Boston down to Florida should have the opportunity for exposure and to be fully staffed.
When you advertise the FNO for a single field that's where everyone will want to fly into because that's where all the controllers are going to be. It's like a traffic jam during rush hour with all but one lane open.
With current events, surely everyone is eager to control and fly but due to the spotlight being on one airport on a Friday night, you end up with something even the real world couldn't handle.
Coordination between the ARTCC's will be more streamlined because then everyone will be included in the event.
Advertise and staff more airports and watch the traffic scatter because pilots will actually have more than one choice of where to fly into and out of with fully staffed ATC.
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I just want to note that while we're having a GROUND STOP to PHL. Second tier facility and some first tier facility is still LAUNCHING departures to PHL with the hope that ZDC or the facility down the road would do the holding. I mean EDCT and ground stops are there for reasons but that's my 2 cents.
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Tim
I'm not going to get into it with you because you hold a position in ZDC. I reported where I had the problem and how we as the pilots were getting hosed because the folks on the ground couldn't work together. Your comment about letting proceed just proves there is a problem by your answer. When we question the ATC pilots are to blame.
Sir now you are saying "the folks on the ground couldn't work together" but earlier you were saying that ZDC wasn't doing the job and holding people. ZDC can't do much when PHL can only take certain arrivals per hour. I wasn't the guy in charge or controlling enroute so I can't say much, however, I believe they tried their best to stop too much aircraft enters ZDC. However, if neighbor ARTCC keeps dumping traffic into ZDC, all they can do was to hold people until PHL clears up. If you see a tree's leaves turning brown, it might not be the leave's problem.
Now let's talk about why people were entering ZDC from Atlanta but not Indy. To make it simpler, let's just say ZDC was ok with that. Here's an example. There is a highway that having a traffic jam because the exit is jammed. There's also a traffic light to control traffic on the highway. The lane with green light can get on the highway and the lane with red light cannot. Sir you are sitting in the lane waiting for the red light and complaining about the traffic light and the highway.
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Tim
I'm not going to get into it with you because you hold a position in ZDC. I reported where I had the problem and how we as the pilots were getting hosed because the folks on the ground couldn't work together. Your comment about letting proceed just proves there is a problem by your answer. When we question the ATC pilots are to blame.
Sir now you are saying "the folks on the ground couldn't work together" but earlier you were saying that ZDC wasn't doing the job and holding people. ZDC can't do much when PHL can only take certain arrivals per hour. I wasn't the guy in charge or controlling enroute so I can't say much, however, I believe they tried their best to stop too much aircraft enters ZDC. However, if neighbor ARTCC keeps dumping traffic into ZDC, all they can do was to hold people until PHL clears up. If you see a tree's leaves turning brown, it might not be the leave's problem.
Now let's talk about why people were entering ZDC from Atlanta but not Indy. To make it simpler, let's just say ZDC was ok with that. Here's an example. There is a highway that having a traffic jam because the exit is jammed. There's also a traffic light to control traffic on the highway. The lane with green light can get on the highway and the lane with red light cannot. Sir you are sitting in the lane waiting for the red light and complaining about the traffic light and the highway.
You guys at DC love your metaphors. Call it what it was, a mess. You can't fault the pilots who got bounced around between Indy and DC as we were cleared and following instructions from take-off to holds. By the way, I'm not the one responsible for coordinating traffic, your guys are. So if I come-on here to voice my dissatisfaction don't try to make me the bad guy because their was too much traffic. I'm sure another DC controller will chime in. Your good at that. I'm out and done replying because it's getting nowhere.
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Tim
I'm not going to get into it with you because you hold a position in ZDC. I reported where I had the problem and how we as the pilots were getting hosed because the folks on the ground couldn't work together. Your comment about letting proceed just proves there is a problem by your answer. When we question the ATC pilots are to blame.
Sir now you are saying "the folks on the ground couldn't work together" but earlier you were saying that ZDC wasn't doing the job and holding people. ZDC can't do much when PHL can only take certain arrivals per hour. I wasn't the guy in charge or controlling enroute so I can't say much, however, I believe they tried their best to stop too much aircraft enters ZDC. However, if neighbor ARTCC keeps dumping traffic into ZDC, all they can do was to hold people until PHL clears up. If you see a tree's leaves turning brown, it might not be the leave's problem.
Now let's talk about why people were entering ZDC from Atlanta but not Indy. To make it simpler, let's just say ZDC was ok with that. Here's an example. There is a highway that having a traffic jam because the exit is jammed. There's also a traffic light to control traffic on the highway. The lane with green light can get on the highway and the lane with red light cannot. Sir you are sitting in the lane waiting for the red light and complaining about the traffic light and the highway.
You guys at DC love your metaphors. Call it what it was, a mess. You can't fault the pilots who got bounced around between Indy and DC as we were cleared and following instructions from take-off to holds. By the way, I'm not the one responsible for coordinating traffic, your guys are. So if I come-on here to voice my dissatisfaction don't try to make me the bad guy because their was too much traffic. I'm sure another DC controller will chime in. Your good at that. I'm out and done replying because it's getting nowhere.
Actually I'll chime in. Hi, I'm the ZNY Events Coordinator. We declared an arrival rate of 51 at the start of the event. We ended up landing above that rate for 3 hours (see this nifty link (https://simaware.ca/events/analyze/113)). This means we were landing better than we anticipated. Also, if you would like a log of all of the traffic management initiatives (which I recorded in the National Traffic Management Log), let me know and you can see how much we actually coordinated (note, this does not necessarily include things coordinated internally or via voice on the New York Metro Hotline which we use to connect different ARTCCs to assist in coordination of traffic management things).
We had some problems, yes: we wanted to mitigate South Approach (PHL_SA_APP) becoming oversaturated because we know in the past, it gets easily oversaturated by BOS traffic on J121 and ATL on PAATS. We planned splitting ATL traffic through ZID to route them on the BOJID (the north arrival) and BOS via SPUDS to move some traffic north. Unfortunately, ZID ended up not taking ATL departures through them and ZBW didn't have enough staff to support reroutes so neither of those initiatives was as effective as they needed to be. This contributed to metering delays out of ZID, ATL, and some other places.
Traffic management transcends the small-picture, individualness of single flights. It involves managing flows of aircraft, working within/between ATC facilities, and inter-ARTCC routing and initiatives. To think that problems affecting an FNO are limited to certain flights or ways certain controllers handle things is misguided. It takes a big-picture view to understand what happens on the ground and in the air.
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Tim
I'm not going to get into it with you because you hold a position in ZDC. I reported where I had the problem and how we as the pilots were getting hosed because the folks on the ground couldn't work together. Your comment about letting proceed just proves there is a problem by your answer. When we question the ATC pilots are to blame.
Sir now you are saying "the folks on the ground couldn't work together" but earlier you were saying that ZDC wasn't doing the job and holding people. ZDC can't do much when PHL can only take certain arrivals per hour. I wasn't the guy in charge or controlling enroute so I can't say much, however, I believe they tried their best to stop too much aircraft enters ZDC. However, if neighbor ARTCC keeps dumping traffic into ZDC, all they can do was to hold people until PHL clears up. If you see a tree's leaves turning brown, it might not be the leave's problem.
Now let's talk about why people were entering ZDC from Atlanta but not Indy. To make it simpler, let's just say ZDC was ok with that. Here's an example. There is a highway that having a traffic jam because the exit is jammed. There's also a traffic light to control traffic on the highway. The lane with green light can get on the highway and the lane with red light cannot. Sir you are sitting in the lane waiting for the red light and complaining about the traffic light and the highway.
You guys at DC love your metaphors. Call it what it was, a mess. You can't fault the pilots who got bounced around between Indy and DC as we were cleared and following instructions from take-off to holds. By the way, I'm not the one responsible for coordinating traffic, your guys are. So if I come-on here to voice my dissatisfaction don't try to make me the bad guy because their was too much traffic. I'm sure another DC controller will chime in. Your good at that. I'm out and done replying because it's getting nowhere.
You can't just say "controllers should coordinate" when that was happening the entire night between PHL and the facilities feeding into them, save for one bad apple that didn't wanted to be burdened with the inconvenience of doing air traffic on a network where we pretend to do air traffic. ZDC deserves none of your blame here, that should be placed on the facility that's not playing ball, because they're the ones that are making your time flying miserable.
And before you try it, no, I'm not a ZDC controller.
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We have 5 active center controllers. 3 TMUs and 1 D-side on Washington in order to keep this event floated on DC side. TMU and D-Side did all the metering/GDP in order for us just to control our own sector. How can we possibly do it better?
We did have to coordinate a lot since NY went from 20 to 25 to 40 MIT depends on arrival. There is not a lot that we can do because of not skillful aviators, not brave controllers and people are just impatient since they have to wait for hours due to a ground stop program at the event field.
Just my 2 cents here.
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If anybody, especially pilots, are upset about holding or delays, PHL had 3 straight hours over the real world arrival rate capacity. Expecting Vatsim controllers to manage MORE traffic than the real world, who is better trained and better equipped, is absurd. A while back we agreed that 65% of the real world rate is acceptable and should be what we can handle as Vatsim controllers, these guys managed over 35% more than that. If anything I think all of the controllers deserve kudos for doing what they could. If you're not ok with delays don't fly during an FNO.
https://simaware.ca/events/analyze/113
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Tim
I'm not going to get into it with you because you hold a position in ZDC. I reported where I had the problem and how we as the pilots were getting hosed because the folks on the ground couldn't work together. Your comment about letting proceed just proves there is a problem by your answer. When we question the ATC pilots are to blame.
Sir now you are saying "the folks on the ground couldn't work together" but earlier you were saying that ZDC wasn't doing the job and holding people. ZDC can't do much when PHL can only take certain arrivals per hour. I wasn't the guy in charge or controlling enroute so I can't say much, however, I believe they tried their best to stop too much aircraft enters ZDC. However, if neighbor ARTCC keeps dumping traffic into ZDC, all they can do was to hold people until PHL clears up. If you see a tree's leaves turning brown, it might not be the leave's problem.
Now let's talk about why people were entering ZDC from Atlanta but not Indy. To make it simpler, let's just say ZDC was ok with that. Here's an example. There is a highway that having a traffic jam because the exit is jammed. There's also a traffic light to control traffic on the highway. The lane with green light can get on the highway and the lane with red light cannot. Sir you are sitting in the lane waiting for the red light and complaining about the traffic light and the highway.
You guys at DC love your metaphors. Call it what it was, a mess. You can't fault the pilots who got bounced around between Indy and DC as we were cleared and following instructions from take-off to holds. By the way, I'm not the one responsible for coordinating traffic, your guys are. So if I come-on here to voice my dissatisfaction don't try to make me the bad guy because their was too much traffic. I'm sure another DC controller will chime in. Your good at that. I'm out and done replying because it's getting nowhere.
Nobody is blaming the pilots. If you really have to blame someone, ZDC does not deserve your top choice. Do you know why more and more controllers are chiming in? It's because you are dumping dirt on us that we clearly know we don't deserve. Let's coordinate more so the airport which is capable of arriving 51 airplanes an hour can now take 150 airplanes? Like everyone else said, it's physically impossible. If there are too many people trying to fly in, someone will have to sit on the ground or flying circles in the air or divert. The rule is "first come, first serve", so nobody should be prioritized. At least not in ZDC. People entered ZDC from ZTL but not ZID may have other reasons. Those who came from ZTL might be holding in ZDC as well. You can't just sit on your couch and "voice your dissatisfaction" without knowing what's actually going on. Do you know why "it's getting nowhere"? It's because your complaining is from nowhere.