VATUSA Forums
General => The Control Room Floor => Topic started by: Matthew Simmons on February 25, 2018, 09:37:26 PM
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I have a quick question over the power CTR controllers have over their aircraft. I know I've read CTR controllers can clear aircraft direct a waypoint in their airspace, and their airspace only, but I've also seen/heard IRL and on Vatsim controllers clearing aircraft direct the waypoint before their arrival, sometimes half-way across the US! They just insert (this is from a flight I was doing from SEA-MSP) something like "SEA072077 (waypoint)" to notify any future controllers they've cleared them direct that waypoint, for example UFFDA. This is about a 1000 NM shortcut. So, just to clear my confusion, what can CTR controllers do and what not? If they see it's basically a direct flight with a few waypoints in between, and the pilots wants it, do they have the clearance to do that?
Thanks!
Matthew Simmons
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Hi Matthew,
I'll try and keep my response concise. The short answer is a controller can clear an aircraft direct any waypoint within their sector, which normally means their ARTCC on VATSIM (due to consolidation), unless they seek approval from other controllers. For example, if I'm on Boston Center and have an aircraft routed to KIAD via the HYPER# STAR, I can clear them direct BIGGO without coordination. But let's say I really want to shortcut them. I could issue a "point out" to ZNY telling them where the aircraft is and my request. For example;
ME: Kennedy [sector], Concord [sector], pointout/APREQ.
ZNY: Kennedy, go ahead
ME: Pointout/APREQ 14nm south Barnes VOR, FL360, UAL363, request direct LIRCH intersection.
ZNY: Pointout approved, xx
This means I have ZNY's approval to route an aircraft direct LIRCH intersection, and then continue on their filed route. The same logic applies to airways, arrivals, departures, or random routings. Both on VATSIM and in real life, shortcuts can (and should) be used as a way to sequence aircraft. If I have two aircraft 5nm in trail and I need to get them 10nm in trail, I can clear the first aircraft direct a waypoint at the end of my airspace, eliminating any small turns. Because they are going direct, they will travel a shorter difference, thus creating more in trail spacing.
Hope this helps!
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Thanks a lot Krikor, that helped with my confusion. Also, thanks for including the pointout information. Have a great night!
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To add to Krikor's response a controller amending a Place Bearing Distance waypoint direct to another fix well down line is also a means of coordination so outside of any constraints I can clear you halfway across the US and the coordination is accomplished by amending your flight plan, there are restrictions on how far you can be cleared this way which are described in a letter of agreement between two facilities. For example, I might be able to route you direct to MLP from my center, but no further direct. If a downline controller has an issue with this then they are able to reroute you.
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Thank you, both of you. I'll keep this in mind. Which LOA would you follow if clearing across multiple ARTCCs, for example, the example I used cut directly through the middle of Salt Lake enroute control, therefore which LOA would be used?
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LOAs are usually in effect for adjacent ARTCCs so that is about as far as seems practicable
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It also depends on local procedure. Sometimes you just can’t take the shortcut, sometimes you can. Point outs aren’t always approved. Plus, I could be running my own sector and technically be able to give direct to any point in my airspace but not be able to due to intra sector policy and traffic conditions.
At the end of the day, it’s VATSIM. Just don’t let the dots touch.
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Honestly, many of the "coordination required with the adjacent facility/sector" clauses are predicated on the lack of enroute FDP (Flight Data Processing). Based on the fact that any controller has access to any flight plan on the network to view amendments in real-time, such limitations don't apply on the network under any circumstances. Typically, unless there's a specific TMU restriction in place for the affected airport/route, there's no hard restriction on how long/short a direct leg can be (within aircraft navigation limitations for non-GNSS RNAV and non-RNAV equipped aircraft).
The direct MLP example cited above by Matt happens multiple times a day in ZMP airspace (and indeed from points further east of MLP in some cases). Conversely, as long as MSP isn't on any sort of enroute spacing or national delay program, you'll routinely hear ZLA/ZOA/ZLC controllers clearing MSP-bound flights direct SSWAN or UFFDA from 2+ Centers away. The change to the route string constitutes coordination in and of itself, and if an aircraft needs to be rerouted to comply with LOA, TMU initiatives, active Special Use Airspace, or any other reason, the sector with the responsibility to issue said routing will do it.
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But let's say I really want to shortcut them. I could issue a "point out" to ZNY telling them where the aircraft is and my request. For example;
ME: Kennedy [sector], Concord [sector], pointout/APREQ.
ZNY: Kennedy, go ahead
ME: Pointout/APREQ 14nm south Barnes VOR, FL360, UAL363, request direct LIRCH intersection.
ZNY: Pointout approved, xx
This means I have ZNY's approval to route an aircraft direct LIRCH intersection, and then continue on their filed route. The same logic applies to airways, arrivals, departures, or random routings. Both on VATSIM and in real life, shortcuts can (and should) be used as a way to sequence aircraft. If I have two aircraft 5nm in trail and I need to get them 10nm in trail, I can clear the first aircraft direct a waypoint at the end of my airspace, eliminating any small turns. Because they are going direct, they will travel a shorter difference, thus creating more in trail spacing.
Hope this helps!
I would have to disagree here. A point out and a short cut do not have much in common. A point out is...
c. Point Out. An action taken by a controller to transfer the radar identification of an aircraft to
another controller and radio communications will not be transferred.
Saying "Point Out Approved" does not approve a request for a short cut, It approves the ability for a transferring controller to transit a portion of another controller's airspace without transferring radio communication.
I also would not agree with..
I know I've read CTR controllers can clear aircraft direct a waypoint in their airspace, and their airspace only,
Hopefully you did not read to much of it ;D. The only thing that "prohibits" us from clearing someone direct outside of our facilities airspace is... (emphasis mine)
4−4−6. DIRECT CLEARANCES b. EN ROUTE. Do not issue revised routing clearances that will take an aircraft off its flight plan route past the last fix in your facility’s airspace, unless requested by the pilot or operational necessity dictates.
And since in my own estimate 99% of the pilots want the direct routing it really does not apply because all we need is the pilots request.
From a ZFW perspective working on the west side of ZFW, here is what I take into consideration when issuing direct routing outside of ZFW. (these are in no particular order)
1.Miss White Sands Missile Range when active. Go either over or north of CNX, or go over or south of EWM.
2. Miss area 51 (R-4806 - R-4809). Go either BLD BTY OAL or ILC OAL.
3. Don't clear aircraft past the Q routes in the non radar environment of The Gulf of Mexico. Stay over HRV, LEV, REDFN, and a few others.
4.Is the file route normal? If the route is a normal everyday canned computer routing, The dispatcher just picked the preferred route and the pilots probably do not care to stay on it. If the route is unusual, longer than normal, and/or a different direction than normal, than first evaluate why it is unusual. Is it for weather? Is it for better wind? Many times I will just ask them if I am not busy. "(callsign) do you know what dispatch has you routed around out there? I can offer you direct XXX if you like."
5. Keep it in the U.S.A. Manual/verbal Radar Handoffs have to be completed by our controllers on the boarder and they use fixes to help accommodate this coordination. Keep them over those fixes.
6. Follow the LOA. for between ZFW and ZAB this really only consists of LAX and PHX arrivals and to miss the ATCAAs stated above in #1 and #2.
7. Aircraft Type and performance No, the C172 is not going to get sequenced with the B737, nor will it get in the way. Let the C172 go direct the corner post.
8. Take into consideration the demand of the destination. Yes you are cleared direct KAMA, KSAF, KLBB, but not KLAX, KORD, KDFW etc.
9. Consider terrain. This really only applies to low level aircraft heading towards The Rockies. They may need to stay on route to utilize a published MEA which is lower than the controllers MIA. For high performance aircraft, is the aircraft landing in the mountains such as EGE, ASE, etc.
That is about it. A few others that may play a factor, but this is the bulk of it. Here are places we go direct all the time from the DFW-LBB area...
ABQ, ZUN, EWM, GBN, BXK, BLD, LAS, PGS, ILC, EED, JNC, PDT, IMB, MEI, ICT, PXV, LEV, HRV, VUH, BRO, DLF, and many more.
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That's interesting William, thanks for your well-put and factual comment. I appreciate everyone's input on this!
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A lot of the times, like Will was getting at with his list of things to consider, it is a common sense thing. Keep it reasonable, and for the most part a pilot will take a shortcut. I have cleared someone direct MLP from south of ATL at work, and some of them take it, some of them prefer to stay on route (even though a shortcut like that is not super common, I just like doing it because it is a shortcut from South Georgia to Idaho). I usually ask the pilot if they would like a shortcut down line and how far if they do want it. That’s mainly for upper level wind consideration, though.
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I have been to many centers, and worked at two different ones. For the LOA's I've read, and worked, there is usually a statement like; You may clear an aircraft to the first fix on the flightplan that is outside your Center. This would mean that when you enter the next center's airspace, you are still going over that first fix in their airspace.
I occasionally get the request from say, ZNY to Clear an Aircraft direct say, SFO...They know better, because the answer is always no, because at the destination Center, you want arrivals to be lined up on a particular arrival and or the proper "gate" for sequencing.
At best you might get direct a fix that is about 200 miles from your arrival airport. That would be best case scenario.
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I have been to many centers, and worked at two different ones. For the LOA's I've read, and worked, there is usually a statement like; You may clear an aircraft to the first fix on the flightplan that is outside your Center. This would mean that when you enter the next center's airspace, you are still going over that first fix in their airspace.
I occasionally get the request from say, ZNY to Clear an Aircraft direct say, SFO...They know better, because the answer is always no, because at the destination Center, you want arrivals to be lined up on a particular arrival and or the proper "gate" for sequencing.
At best you might get direct a fix that is about 200 miles from your arrival airport. That would be best case scenario.
For this I'd have to disagree.
On a flight I had from MKE to LAS, the pilot asked for direct KSINO from joining J60 over DSM (putting this inside ZMP's airspace), and got it. KSINO was part of the GRNPA1 and LUXOR2 arrivals at KLAS at the time. So we ended up getting direct a fix 3 sectors away (the rest of ZMP, ZDV, ZLC, then ZLA).
Also even when listening to ZLA from my scanner, I've heard pilots who on LA Center ask for direct LENDY, and while that was denied, was able to receive direct CRL, which basically is across 5 different sectors (ZDV, ZMP, ZAU, and ZOB), and get it.
So asking for the APREQ is normally what happens, which would be effectively outside of the LOA.
BL.
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I have been to many centers, and worked at two different ones. For the LOA's I've read, and worked, there is usually a statement like; You may clear an aircraft to the first fix on the flightplan that is outside your Center. This would mean that when you enter the next center's airspace, you are still going over that first fix in their airspace.
I occasionally get the request from say, ZNY to Clear an Aircraft direct say, SFO...They know better, because the answer is always no, because at the destination Center, you want arrivals to be lined up on a particular arrival and or the proper "gate" for sequencing.
At best you might get direct a fix that is about 200 miles from your arrival airport. That would be best case scenario.
For this I'd have to disagree.
On a flight I had from MKE to LAS, the pilot asked for direct KSINO from joining J60 over DSM (putting this inside ZMP's airspace), and got it. KSINO was part of the GRNPA1 and LUXOR2 arrivals at KLAS at the time. So we ended up getting direct a fix 3 sectors away (the rest of ZMP, ZDV, ZLC, then ZLA).
Also even when listening to ZLA from my scanner, I've heard pilots who on LA Center ask for direct LENDY, and while that was denied, was able to receive direct CRL, which basically is across 5 different sectors (ZDV, ZMP, ZAU, and ZOB), and get it.
So asking for the APREQ is normally what happens, which would be effectively outside of the LOA.
BL.
The point is, every center is different, and anything can happen with coordination. Obviously I wont argue what centers do cause the term "shortcut" isn't in my vocab at the tower level, but the whole "anything can happen with coordination" thing still applies.
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"anything can happen with coordination"
People seem to forget this. "THE SOP DOESN'T SAY THAT!" :-)
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THE SOP DOESN'T SAY THAT!" :-)
That one ranks right up there with "that fix isn't on my flight plan" (heard often from the children of the magenta line)... ;)
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THE SOP DOESN'T SAY THAT!" :-)
That one ranks right up there with "that fix isn't on my flight plan" (heard often from the children of the magenta line)... ;)
And "Say again" from a /t
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And "Say again" from a /t
Oh please. This though... :-\
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The appropriate answer to that question is "read again".
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The appropriate answer to that question is "read again".
As much as I may think it, I can't do that to a pilot.
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"anything can happen with coordination"
People seem to forget this. "THE SOP DOESN'T SAY THAT!" :-)
Ahh, but the perfect counter: Shortcuts aren't SOP! ;)
BL.
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Ahh, but the perfect counter: Shortcuts aren't SOP! ;)
BL.
Agreed. I've been trying to emphasize the fact that the S stands for standard.
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Ahh, but the perfect counter: Shortcuts aren't SOP! ;)
BL.
Agreed. I've been trying to emphasize the fact that the S stands for standard.
Are you saying that you've NEVER coordinated something that doesn't follow the SOP 100%?
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Ahh, but the perfect counter: Shortcuts aren't SOP! ;)
BL.
Agreed. I've been trying to emphasize the fact that the S stands for standard.
Are you saying that you've NEVER coordinated something that doesn't follow the SOP 100%?
I coordinate non-standard things all the time!
I'm saying you can coordinate anything -- The SOP only covers "standard" ops. You can do anything you want, but non-standard must be coordinated. There should not be any limitations on coordinated operational deviations from standards.
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Ahh, but the perfect counter: Shortcuts aren't SOP! ;)
BL.
Agreed. I've been trying to emphasize the fact that the S stands for standard.
Are you saying that you've NEVER coordinated something that doesn't follow the SOP 100%?
Let's answer this with another question. Are shortcuts SOP? And who sad everything done is always done in accordance to SOP?
SOPs are exactly that: Standard Procedures, meaning "Normal". Shortcuts are not normal, and will require coordination for something that isn't part of SOP. That's why by nature we have coordination. we APREQ for the request, and if we get it from the various affected sectors, we clear the aircraft for their shortcut.
In a sense, that is part of SOP. We coordinate, which coordination is part of SOP. The routing of the aircraft wanting the request would not be part of SOP outside of by the time they are at the Center level, they are already flying the bulk of their SID in question, and are just looking for a more direct route to the STAR in question instead of the route they filed. That really is no different than rerouting them when they are already en route.
All in all, it's a plus for all of us: Saves us time from keeping them on a route that could take longer in your sector and easing your traffic flow, and saves them time for having a shorter more direct route, plus if RW, saves them fuel.
There's bonuses all around for doing this, and again, not everything will follow SOP, which is why we have standard procedures. This is something outside the norm on that, and even with that, can be coordinated with various sectors to accommodate.
BL.
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Shortcuts don’t need to be APREQ’d unless they’re a direct violation of an SOP/LOA. I can guarantee you that ZMP10 doesn’t call every sector between themselves and MLP before issuing it to a MSP-SEA flight.
BL, if ZLC wants to send a guy from over BCE Direct HEC or HAKMN for the RIIVR or ANJLL STAR, would you expect it to be APREQ’d? I’d understand if they wanted to send a guy direct GRAMM or ANJLL then it’d be a different issue, but further out than that the expectation in the field is generally that amendment of the route string constitutes coordination.
I’ve personally been Cleared Direct SBJ by ZAU from just east of SBN landing KTEB before, even though there’s not a snowball’s chance in Hades that it’ll stick. And lo and behold, you get onto a ZOB or ZNY frequency, and without fail you’ll hear “I have routing to KTEB, Advise when ready to copy.”
There’s really no need to get wrapped around the axle about this. Issue shortcuts that aren’t going to be stupid. I’ll happily clear direct HEC/MVA/OAL/MLP/etc. from halfway across the country, but wouldn’t even consider issuing direct GRAMM/CEDES/ANJLL/whatever. Conversely, if I get an airplane into my airspace that I need to put on an LOA compliant routing, I will do so or a reasonable approximation thereof that I can coordinate.
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Shortcuts don’t need to be APREQ’d unless they’re a direct violation of an SOP/LOA. I can guarantee you that ZMP10 doesn’t call every sector between themselves and MLP before issuing it to a MSP-SEA flight.
BL, if ZLC wants to send a guy from over BCE Direct HEC or HAKMN for the RIIVR or ANJLL STAR, would you expect it to be APREQ’d? I’d understand if they wanted to send a guy direct GRAMM or ANJLL then it’d be a different issue, but further out than that the expectation in the field is generally that amendment of the route string constitutes coordination.
I’ve personally been Cleared Direct SBJ from just east of SBN landing KTEB before, even though there’s not a snowball’s chance in Hades that it’ll stick. And lo and behold, you get onto a ZOB or ZNY frequency, and without fail you’ll hear “I have routing to KTEB, Advise when ready to copy.”
There’s really no need to get wrapped around the axle about this. Issue shortcuts that aren’t going to be stupid. I’ll happily clear direct HEC/MVA/OAL/MLP/etc. from halfway across the country, but wouldn’t even consider issuing direct GRAMM/CEDES/ANJLL/whatever. Conversely, if I get an airplane into my airspace that I need to put on an LOA compliant routing, I will do so or a reasonable approximation thereof that I can coordinate.
I don't expect the APREQ you're asking about, because what you're asking for is directly on the routing/airway that they already filed. But if I have an aircraft that is taking the southern route from LAX to JFK before cutting up north, there's the chance that I can create that shortcut by taking them directly to a point on that northward routing, I could give them that, bypassing the route that they've filed and saving them fuel the entire time.
What we don't know is how traffic will be in the sector having the fix or waypoint that we are clearing them to, hence the APREQ with the appropriate sectors so they know what to expect from an aircraft coming to them further along their route than they would expect them. So in this sense, I'm not using any APREQ to get their approval for clearing the aircraft on a shortcut; I'm using APREQ as a heads up, saying "You're having this aircraft coming to you direct this waypoint. If you'd like them re-routed, re-route them, otherwise, you'll need to factor it into your flows."
BL.