Linked Events

  • The JFK FNO: September 10, 2021

[9/10/2021 2300z - 0300z] The JFK FNO

Karl Mathias Moberg

  • ZNY Staff
  • 108
    • View Profile
    • NYARTCC
Re: [9/10/2021 2300z - 0300z] The JFK FNO
« Reply #15 on: September 06, 2021, 03:00:24 PM »
***

Noah, please reference Alex's post above. This was coordinated with ZBW and ZDC and in agreement with them, with nothing being decided prior to everyone agreeing.


Karl Mathias Moberg (KM) - C3/I1
New York ARTCC
ZNY Air Traffic Manager

Robert Shearman Jr

  • Members
  • 288
    • View Profile
    • Slant Alpha Adventures
Re: [9/10/2021 2300z - 0300z] The JFK FNO
« Reply #16 on: September 06, 2021, 11:37:30 PM »
Regardless of what was agreed, the event is clearly a tongue-in-cheek nose-thumbing to the new FNO guidelines, which were instituted to *prevent* all FNO traffic from being focused onto a single airfield.  But if this was done with buy-in from all interested parties, then the only thing that remains is to watch it go down and see how they do.  At the end of the night, *somebody* will get to throw out an "I told you so."  Perhaps we can all keep our wagers to ourselves.  I unfortunately won't be able to fly in this one but I'll be keenly interested in the post-mortem analysis.
Cheers,
-R.

Dhruv Kalra

  • ZMP Staff
  • 431
    • View Profile
Re: [9/10/2021 2300z - 0300z] The JFK FNO
« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2021, 05:58:22 PM »
Regardless of what was agreed, the event is clearly a tongue-in-cheek nose-thumbing to the new FNO guidelines, which were instituted to *prevent* all FNO traffic from being focused onto a single airfield.

Yes, let's funnel an unrealistic amount of traffic into one of the 3 NY Metro airports during convective weather season and just hope for the best.

I'd better make sure someone's on ZMP so we can start creating 50 MIT for JFK over Iowa...
Dhruv Kalra
ZMP ATM | Instructor | Grumpy Old Man

Ryan Pitt

  • Members
  • 115
    • View Profile
Re: [9/10/2021 2300z - 0300z] The JFK FNO
« Reply #18 on: September 09, 2021, 01:02:18 PM »
Regardless of what was agreed, the event is clearly a tongue-in-cheek nose-thumbing to the new FNO guidelines, which were instituted to *prevent* all FNO traffic from being focused onto a single airfield.

Yes, let's funnel an unrealistic amount of traffic into one of the 3 NY Metro airports during convective weather season and just hope for the best.

I'd better make sure someone's on ZMP so we can start creating 50 MIT for JFK over Iowa...

Iowa is scenic this time of year. A couple extra minutes can't hurt.
Ryan Pitt
ZKC C1

Derek Hood

  • Members
  • 22
    • View Profile
Re: [9/10/2021 2300z - 0300z] The JFK FNO
« Reply #19 on: September 09, 2021, 09:57:25 PM »
I’m just here for all the bitching.  Am I too late?

Derek

Daniel Everman

  • ZMP Staff
  • 98
    • View Profile
Re: [9/10/2021 2300z - 0300z] The JFK FNO
« Reply #20 on: September 10, 2021, 09:04:11 AM »
Regardless of what was agreed, the event is clearly a tongue-in-cheek nose-thumbing to the new FNO guidelines, which were instituted to *prevent* all FNO traffic from being focused onto a single airfield.

Yes, let's funnel an unrealistic amount of traffic into one of the 3 NY Metro airports during convective weather season and just hope for the best.

I'd better make sure someone's on ZMP so we can start creating 50 MIT for JFK over Iowa...

Iowa is scenic this time of year. A couple extra minutes can't hurt.

Yeah, I could go for Iowa. Iowa couple beers to myself, that is.
Daniel Everman
ZMP FE #retired | Grill Enthusiast

Lance Williams

  • Members
  • 13
    • View Profile
Re: [9/10/2021 2300z - 0300z] The JFK FNO
« Reply #21 on: September 10, 2021, 04:43:11 PM »
It's going to suck with everyone flying to Albany with me...
Thank you,
Lance W.

Hundreds of Real-World Airlines and Routes for you to fly at www.ndbair.com

Chris Smith

  • Members
  • 1
    • View Profile
Re: [9/10/2021 2300z - 0300z] The JFK FNO
« Reply #22 on: September 10, 2021, 04:48:56 PM »
Who needs JFK when you have Albany! See y'all there.

Lance Williams

  • Members
  • 13
    • View Profile
Re: [9/10/2021 2300z - 0300z] The JFK FNO
« Reply #23 on: September 10, 2021, 04:49:48 PM »
We may need to divert to JFK Smiffy with this single-airport KALB F-NO!
Thank you,
Lance W.

Hundreds of Real-World Airlines and Routes for you to fly at www.ndbair.com

Tim Simpson

  • Members
  • 7
    • View Profile
Re: [9/10/2021 2300z - 0300z] The JFK FNO
« Reply #24 on: September 11, 2021, 07:14:43 AM »
Flew into Norfolk last night in the FNO.  Departed DCA in a Bonanza.  Nice GA flight.  VATSIM servers kept tanking....must be those eastern block servers they got when they bought the East German geiger counters, and Gen2 night vision goggles on eBay.  LOL. 

The good news is, that even with the childish attempt to overload ZNY with traffic to prove a point(....it was obvious....) ZNY handled it all.  I don't think any other ARTCC can handle a heavily attended FNO like ZNY can.  The other ARTCC's could use this as a gut check moment, and learn a lot from ZNY in my opinion.

Fun time.

Josh Glottmann

  • Members
  • 190
    • View Profile
Re: [9/10/2021 2300z - 0300z] The JFK FNO
« Reply #25 on: September 11, 2021, 09:14:48 AM »
The good news is, that even with the childish attempt to overload ZNY with traffic to prove a point(....it was obvious....) ZNY handled it all.  I don't think any other ARTCC can handle a heavily attended FNO like ZNY can.  The other ARTCC's could use this as a gut check moment, and learn a lot from ZNY in my opinion.
I highly doubt it was the intention of most pilots to “overload ZNY.” I think the largest stake in the “overload ZNY” game was ZNY themself.

Brett Jones

  • ZKC Staff
  • 29
    • View Profile
Re: [9/10/2021 2300z - 0300z] The JFK FNO
« Reply #26 on: September 11, 2021, 11:53:49 AM »
Flew into Norfolk last night in the FNO.  Departed DCA in a Bonanza.  Nice GA flight.  VATSIM servers kept tanking....must be those eastern block servers they got when they bought the East German geiger counters, and Gen2 night vision goggles on eBay.  LOL. 

The good news is, that even with the childish attempt to overload ZNY with traffic to prove a point(....it was obvious....) ZNY handled it all.  I don't think any other ARTCC can handle a heavily attended FNO like ZNY can.  The other ARTCC's could use this as a gut check moment, and learn a lot from ZNY in my opinion.

Fun time.

Seriously? JFK was over it's capacity before the event started.. The "other artcc's" were the ones who actually had to hold pilots on the ground for hours, and vector planes to meet MIT requirements because JFK can't handle the demand. Glad you enjoyed your VFR flight outside ZNY, but it was far from "handled"..
Brett Jones
Events Coordinator
vZKC - Kansas City ARTCC

Commercial Pilot ASEL AMEL CFI/II

Joseph Pentz

  • Instructors
  • 5
    • View Profile
Re: [9/10/2021 2300z - 0300z] The JFK FNO
« Reply #27 on: September 11, 2021, 01:30:23 PM »
I was one of the New York Controllers last night. I was on Tower and I was on Approach. I can tell you at one point VATSPY Read 200 Arrivals. I was also streaming the entire event and I can tell you that plenty of pilots provided feedback that they enjoyed it, even including the ground stops and holds. Why? Because it was a non-standard challenge and change of pace. On a normal day on the network, you aren’t getting ground stops and put into holds because of traffic saturation. When the servers died, (for lack of a better verb), that’s when the airspace started getting unmanaged and we had to do some cleanup and holding. Simply because none of our approach controllers and some center controllers could connect. That’s to zero fault of ZNY or any controller. I honestly would love to hear from VATSIM as to the cause of the server issues because if anything this could have provided a stress test data point to VATSIM. I’m not here for a political discussion of the event, or how it was managed, or why it was fair or unfair. I feel like many times after these events we forget the reason we are all part of flight simulation, to have fun and get a taste of realism. Anyone can argue ‘WELL THIS EVENT IS FAR FROM REALISTIC!’ You’re spot on. JFK doesn’t get slammed like this IRL. However if you want to take that stage and podium, I’ll ask you to then explain Cross the Pond. I’ve flown plenty of FNOs prior to COVID, and after COVID. Personally I love the i sanctity, ground holds, en route holding. It’s fun! Many pilots did enjoy it. Some I’m sure had differing opinions and that’s completely fine. After all was said and done, I talked with other controllers, we spent probably close to 1.5 hours talking about what we felt went well, what our downfalls were, what was out of our control. NYARTCC has always and will always be a difficult ARTCC to train in and learn. Hell you need to learn 4 Class Bravo airspaces. It’s a real task. As part of the Instructor staff I pride myself on helping students excel and learn and become better. I also am an AGI/IGI and love teaching ground and real world pilots procedures and policies because well I’m a weirdo. I honestly could not care any less how some people say ‘you take this too seriously blah blah blah’ Give it a rest. Unless VATUSA has a backlog of emails stating how the FNO was a disaster and they hated it and controllers were not prepared and didn’t know what they are doing (which I highly doubt), I’ll view it overall as an event that people enjoyed and was a success. Does the word success mean it was perfect, hell no. Just because you get your PPL doesn’t mean you didn’t make mistakes during the checkride. Same rules apply here. As I mentioned before I don’t like going into the political side of VATSIM, but what I will say is that the events team who set this up on the JFK side did a damn good job. They spent a long time and coordinating with other ARTCCs to make it happen I’m sure. I’m sure there are other ARTCCs that don’t agree with the approval of this event but it’s done and over. Does not mean a valid post Mortem cannot be conducted in regards to how the network as a whole handled the traffic, plus ZNY, ZDC,ZBW,ZIB,ZOB,ZTL handled ground stops, in air holds, etc. Thats a completely normal procedure. However, I’ll go out on a limb and say if anyone here would classify the FNO as an utter ‘disaster’. You’re out of your mind. People had a lot of fun from what I’m seeing across different social media mediums and that’s the whole damn point of VATSIM. To have a sense of realism, have fun, but know it’s okay to make mistakes!

Joseph Pentz
ZNY I1
Private ASEL, AGI/IGI

Robert Shearman Jr

  • Members
  • 288
    • View Profile
    • Slant Alpha Adventures
Re: [9/10/2021 2300z - 0300z] The JFK FNO
« Reply #28 on: September 12, 2021, 05:44:25 AM »
Anyone can argue ‘WELL THIS EVENT IS FAR FROM REALISTIC!’ You’re spot on. JFK doesn’t get slammed like this IRL. However if you want to take that stage and podium, I’ll ask you to then explain Cross the Pond.
First of all, Joe, I love you, man.  You know that.

Second of all, I didn't fly nor control in the event due to a large family gathering I was hosting this weekend.  So I'm basing my concerns about this on the comments I've seen in a handful of Discords, another post on this forum talking about multiple-hour ground holds, and other controllers who reached out to me personally to vent about the night's ordeal.

Third -- interesting that you mention Cross The Pond, because it's actually quite an apropos comparison.  It, too, like the FNO, is an event that started out fun and great, and part of the fun was the chaos of it.  But as it grew well beyond its capacity, the "chaos" of it became more and more overwhelming, venturing dangerously close to erasing the "fun" and "great" parts.  Each had a significant number of participating controllers who said, "it's too much; I'm not dealing with that anymore."  And then both CTP and FNO had high-level committees convened to figure out how to "fix" them moving forward.  Finally -- AN OPTION ON THE TABLE FOR BOTH WAS ABOLISHING THEM ALTOGETHER.

Look, I get that part of the challenge of controlling is pushing the limits of what you can handle.  But when you're holding planes on the ground for more than 30 or even 60 minutes to achieve that limit, you're sacrificing someone else's fun for your own.

My vote is, let's find a BALANCE.  If you want to do a single-field event, you're more than welcome to, anytime you want -- EXCEPT on a Friday night.  I don't think that's too much to ask.
Cheers,
-R.

Dhruv Kalra

  • ZMP Staff
  • 431
    • View Profile
Re: [9/10/2021 2300z - 0300z] The JFK FNO
« Reply #29 on: September 12, 2021, 12:58:42 PM »
My vote is, let's find a BALANCE.  If you want to do a single-field event, you're more than welcome to, anytime you want -- EXCEPT on a Friday night.  I don't think that's too much to ask.

This. This RIGHT here. Enough with the “my airport can beat up your airport” BS. You want to do a single field event? Saturdays and Sundays are fantastic opportunities for them.
Dhruv Kalra
ZMP ATM | Instructor | Grumpy Old Man