confused a bit about non controlled airports..

Brian Sommers

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confused a bit about non controlled airports..
« on: January 17, 2012, 10:21:52 AM »
I fly in the PNW area and I fly a lot to little uncontrolled airstrips.

If say Seattle center is controlling, do I still have to go through him? or can I just make my calls on 122.8? (I"m using FSINN)

I understand that after take off I can contact center if I want flight following, yes? But, I'm not required to, yes?

Don Desfosse

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confused a bit about non controlled airports..
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2012, 10:47:13 AM »
If flying IFR or if you're flying VFR in controlled airspace, then yes, you must contact Center.

If flying VFR in uncontrolled airspace, then you do not need to contact ATC.  You are correct that if you are VFR you may request flight following, which would be provided on a workload-available basis.  If not in contact with ATC, you're required to monitor Unicom on 122.8 (and encouraged to broadcast relevant position reports).

Does that help?
« Last Edit: January 17, 2012, 10:49:20 AM by Don Desfosse »
Don Desfosse
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William Lewis

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confused a bit about non controlled airports..
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2012, 12:48:02 PM »
May want to fix some of the wording. You can fly in controlled airspace while VFR and not be in contact with ATC. Remember class E airspace is labeled as controlled airspace.

If IFR, you will always need to be in contact with ATC (subject to availability) and will need a clearance from ATC in order to operate IFR. Check your airport facility director and En Route charts for the proper ATC facilities which cover the airports and area you are wishing to fly.

If VFR, you will need to pay close attention to the airspace classification and follow the rules in order to operate within those airspace classifications:

Class G - Not controlled
Class E - Controlled but no required communications for VFR aircraft to operate within. Traffic advisories may be requested with the controlling radar facility and subject to controller workload.
Class D & C - Controlled airspace which all aircraft must have established radio communication with the controlling facility prior to entering class D or C airspace.
Class B - Controlled airspace which requires an explicit ATC clearance prior to entering.
Class A - No VFR operations permitted.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2012, 12:49:03 PM by William A Lewis »
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confused a bit about non controlled airports..
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2012, 07:24:28 PM »
Quote from: William A Lewis
If IFR, you will always need to be in contact with ATC (subject to availability)

Not necessarily true.  IFR in Class G, for instance, doesn't talk to anyone.  It's uncontrolled airspace, so there is usually no one to talk to except maybe other pilots in some areas with a defined CTAF.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2012, 07:25:18 PM by Daniel Hawton »

William Lewis

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« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2012, 08:04:15 PM »
Yes, but you would be in contact with ATC before and after entering and exiting the class G there for i found it safe to conclude that you they will need to be in contact with ATC.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2012, 08:05:48 PM by William A Lewis »
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Don Desfosse

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« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2012, 07:50:59 AM »
You can actually still, in some places in the country (though not many anymore), fly IFR point to point, all in Class G, all without talking to anyone.  As I used to tell my flight students, what's legal isn't necessarily smart (and vice-versa)!

I was aware of all these nuances, and actually had another 4 long paragraphs in my original response, but before I hit the Save button, re-read the answer, and decided that I didn't want to answer a high-school level question with a doctoral thesis, crush the poor guy in 800 pages of nuances, and have him feel queasy.  I tried to answer the question with a quick, painless answer that took into account at least 92% of the complete answer that would probably satisfy 99.9998% of VATSIM pilots/operations.  I asked if the explanation helped, figuring that if there was a nuance that needed more explanation, a follow-on question could come.  

In other words, the KISS principle!
Don Desfosse
Vice President, Operations, VATSIM (VATGOV2)
Division Director Emeritus, VATUSA

Brian Sommers

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confused a bit about non controlled airports..
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2012, 12:45:28 PM »
Quote from: Don Desfosse
You can actually still, in some places in the country (though not many anymore), fly IFR point to point, all in Class G, all without talking to anyone.  As I used to tell my flight students, what's legal isn't necessarily smart (and vice-versa)!

I was aware of all these nuances, and actually had another 4 long paragraphs in my original response, but before I hit the Save button, re-read the answer, and decided that I didn't want to answer a high-school level question with a doctoral thesis, crush the poor guy in 800 pages of nuances, and have him feel queasy.  I tried to answer the question with a quick, painless answer that took into account at least 92% of the complete answer that would probably satisfy 99.9998% of VATSIM pilots/operations.  I asked if the explanation helped, figuring that if there was a nuance that needed more explanation, a follow-on question could come.  

In other words, the KISS principle!


mmm.. after going over your math.. I think you meant to say ... would probably satisfy 99.9997% of VATSIM pilots/operations....
but you were very close.....  

Steven Bartlett

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confused a bit about non controlled airports..
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2012, 09:15:30 AM »
And remember, although FSInn allows you to use voice on UNICOMM, it is against the rules on VATSIM.  All Unicomm transmissions must be done in text only.
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Brian Sommers

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« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2012, 11:12:06 AM »
oh my goodness are you serious?  I thought you could use unicom in voice if you have FSINN.

so much for VATSIM being "real"   that has got to be the most STUPIDEST rule ever!

Brad Littlejohn

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« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2012, 12:27:27 PM »
Quote from: John Brian Sommers
oh my goodness are you serious?  I thought you could use unicom in voice if you have FSINN.

so much for VATSIM being "real"   that has got to be the most STUPIDEST rule ever!

You can use voice for UNICOM if you have FSINN, yes...

but you must make your transmissions in text as well. Not every person uses FSINN, and don't listen to the same frequency as you do, let alone the same voice server.

Prime example. you are landing at KTVL. I am landing at KTVL. You are on voice UNICOM through FSINN, connected to the USA-W2 server. I am on voice UNICOM through FSINN, connected to the OCEANIA server...

I won't hear you.

The voice servers are not interconnected like the main servers. So this isn't a 'rule' per se; it's more a network limitation than anything.

BL.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2012, 12:28:40 PM by Brad Littlejohn »

Brian Sommers

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confused a bit about non controlled airports..
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2012, 02:04:20 PM »
wow, I had no idea, I thought everyone could here everyone if they were in range and on the correct channel..

That is a bad limitation.. sometimes it is very awkward to type your callouts.

Brad Littlejohn

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« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2012, 02:55:56 PM »
Quote from: John Brian Sommers
wow, I had no idea, I thought everyone could here everyone if they were in range and on the correct channel..

That is a bad limitation.. sometimes it is very awkward to type your callouts.

It isn't one that really can be helped, unfortunately.

Each voice server has its own UNICOM frequency.. but for any sort of voice UNICOM to work, everyone would need to be on the same voice server. And with that, consider the uncontrolled airport; if they had the same UNICOM frequency, everyone would be hearing callouts for pilots at airports that have no bearing on what they are doing.

For example.. say you're in the pattern at some out of the way airport, like KPQI (Presque Isle, Maine), and I'm on final at another out of the way airport, like KDUG (Douglas-Bisbee Int'l, Arizona). You're making calls to UNICOM about your intentions; I hear them. Does your callout mean anything to me at my airport, some 2500nm away?

Then think of pilots in Europe, Asia, or Australia, as this could happen on any voice server.. Someone on final at EHAM (Amsterdam Schiphol) hearing someone on final at GVAC (Cape Verde Islands). Neither callout matters to the pilots here, as they are no-where near eachother.

Also, range comes into play. If your airport has the same UNICOM frequency as another airport clear across the country, you'll hear those, too. So there are a fair number of limitations to overcome for voice UNICOM, on top of that XSquawkbox, and Squawkbox don't have or use it; and since we can't control what the pilot uses to connect to the network, the main medium that all pilot clients can use is text.

BL.

Steven Bartlett

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confused a bit about non controlled airports..
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2012, 11:21:54 PM »
Not only that but for some reason, for those who use squawkbox, they can not hear or communicate via voice on UNICOMM no matter what server they are on.
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Brian Sommers

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confused a bit about non controlled airports..
« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2012, 05:25:27 AM »
well bummer, I guess it is what it is..

I think what VATSIM really needs is a universal software for all pilots... oh boy talk about a can of worms now!

Garrett Smith

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« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2012, 12:09:03 AM »
Actually even if everyone could hear voice over unicom, not all will always have it tuned. There are times when both radios are tuned to a control freq and not unicom. CTR and APR for instance.
Having a text alert from the unicom channel is a feature real pilots will may see someday, but not yet?

Its not about whats convienent, but trying to show measure of safety in practice. even if its virtual.