VATUSA Forums
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Michael Stagg on April 24, 2011, 03:28:49 PM
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I find it sad and extremely disrespectful that senior members of this community can not or will not take the time to answer simple questions/requests posted in this forum or elsewhere through out Vatusa. It tells me they feel what they are doing and how things are running is none of our business and if you don’t like the way we play this game you can go somewhere else.
Currently our division is short a Training Director and a Regional Air Traffic Director yet no announcement of applications being accepted to fill these positions has been posted, maybe that is not how things are run here, maybe they just pick one of their friends or look to see who is doing the best job on a local level and fill the position when it is convenient, I can’t find a policy which covers this (there should be a policy). If there is something amiss, the person I believe responsible to check into any misconduct not only oversees our division as the Regional Director of Vatna he is also Deputy Director of Vatusa seems to me a conflict of interest and possibly a violation of the Code of Regulations. I could be mistaken but it is what is listed on the respective websites.
Since my original post on the 22nd of April, over 300 have viewed the post which indicates to me the interest in the State of our Community. Information and communication is important, it lets us know where we are as a community it allows interaction between Staff and Controllers to share ideas to help grow our hobby. Take the time to keep us informed and quit hiding behind the scenes it doesn’t look kosher.
The views, comments and opinions expressed here are entirely my own and do not represent the views of any organization of which I am a part.
Respectfully,
Michael Stagg
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I find it sad and extremely disrespectful that senior members of this community can not or will not take the time to answer simple questions/requests posted in this forum or elsewhere through out Vatusa. It tells me they feel what they are doing and how things are running is none of our business and if you don’t like the way we play this game you can go somewhere else.
Currently our division is short a Training Director and a Regional Air Traffic Director yet no announcement of applications being accepted to fill these positions has been posted, maybe that is not how things are run here, maybe they just pick one of their friends or look to see who is doing the best job on a local level and fill the position when it is convenient, I can’t find a policy which covers this (there should be a policy). If there is something amiss, the person I believe responsible to check into any misconduct not only oversees our division as the Regional Director of Vatna he is also Deputy Director of Vatusa seems to me a conflict of interest and possibly a violation of the Code of Regulations. I could be mistaken but it is what is listed on the respective websites.
Since my original post on the 22nd of April, over 300 have viewed the post which indicates to me the interest in the State of our Community. Information and communication is important, it lets us know where we are as a community it allows interaction between Staff and Controllers to share ideas to help grow our hobby. Take the time to keep us informed and quit hiding behind the scenes it doesn’t look kosher.
The views, comments and opinions expressed here are entirely my own and do not represent the views of any organization of which I am a part.
Respectfully,
Michael Stagg
OK, right off the bat, your first statement is incorrect. Just because the questions you WANT to be answered aren't being answered, doesn't mean the leadership feels its none of our business. However, you are correct that the network is run by the Founders and if you don't like the rules they have set, you can leave whenever you want to. Last I checked, the exit door isn't locked.
With regards to the vacancies of the Training Director and ATD spot, where's the problem? Just because titles exist and there isn't a name associated with the title, doesn't necessarily mean the responsibilities of the position aren't being filled. Last I heard, Tom Seeley is doing whatever needs to be done in the Training Department on the Division level and has been hard at work doing so (Thanks again Tom!). With the vacant ATD, same question, where's the problem? Has the lack of someone being designated the title of an ATD somehow impede your ability to control/fly/function on the network? If so, let me know as I'd be quite interested to hear how.
[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]I can’t find a policy which covers this (there should be a policy).[/quote]
And what would you like this policy to say? I can't imagine how you could make this policy objective in any way.
With Bryan being listed as Deputy Director, I don't believe he is actually serving as Deputy Director. From what I know about the workings of the VATUSA site, by being listed in a staff position on the USA site, it gives you access to certain areas of the site restricted to other members. Therefore, (again this is what I recall from the last time I heard how the USA site works) since the Deputy Director position is vacant, Bryan was listed in that position so that he could have access to the areas of the VATUSA site he needs.
[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]Since my original post on the 22nd of April, over 300 have viewed the post which indicates to me the interest in the State of our Community.[/quote]
300 views don't represent 300 different people. You could have generated 100 of those views with only a handful of others reading the thread to see what was posted. I can personally vouch for about 10 of those views. First, to read what was being said. Several more to read the replies and the last one to laugh at some of the malarkey that was being posted in the thread.
[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]quit hiding behind the scenes it doesn’t look kosher.[/quote]
If it ain't kosher, don't eat it.
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It is not exactly my place to interject here, nor do I usually get involved in conversations such as these because most of them are pointless. However having the experience of being a DATM and recieving some of these same complaints about the ARTCC Staff is compelling me to comment.
"I find it sad and extremely disrespectful that senior members of this community can not or will not take the time to answer simple questions/requests posted in this forum or elsewhere through out Vatusa."
+1. The guys heading VATUSA, in my opinion, are very good and are doing everything they can to ensure smooth sucessful opertaion of the division. However, with that being said, I feel the same way. There is nothing wrong about answering a few questions or addressing concerns that some people in the division may have. Personally I see the staff as representatives, making sure that our hobby is fun, enjoyable, realistic, and smooth sailing. However as representatives, it comes with a responsibility of informing your community members.
"With regards to the vacancies of the Training Director and ATD spot, where's the problem?"
+1. The ATD and TD spots have in the past been solicitated for by the Senior Staff, so I have no doubt that applications will be accepted for the jobs in due time. Tom Seeley is performing the duties of VATUSA3, and performing those duties well. When the director is ready to add to his team he will do so, and from where I sit, the operation of VATUSA has not been hindered due to the lack of those jobs. Same goes for VATUSA2 position. It does not matter who the deputy director is, and I do believe that John is correct in that it gives them access to certain parts of the site that would otherwise be hidden. The lack of these two positions does not prevent anyone or anything from operating. From pilots to controllers to ARTCC staff to VATUSA staff.
"Information and communication is important"
+2. Communicating with the members is very important as is being visible. I can recall past Directors being very active in the public view and recall some who have not been. This is not to say those who are not visible to the public do not do a great job. However once again it is just my personal opinion and personal experiences that lead me to say that having an open door policy is the only policy to have. If there are expectations of monthly reports and timely updates, then I would say those obligations need to be met. Same with addressing any questions or problems that a majority or minority of the VATUSA members have. A simple forum post does not take more than a few minutes, however there are some topics better left to die. So if these reports aren't going to be generated or published, then just close the program and move on. Why let a dead limb hang on, just chop it off.
"Since my original post on the 22nd of April, over 300 have viewed the post which indicates to me the interest in the State of our Community"\
+1 to John and +1 to Michael. I think that comparitively speaking, the original post (In two days might I add) has recieved 300 views whereas some topics have recieved 25% of that in a month. This does show interest in the post, good or bad, it is a much viewed topic. However John is correct in that views do not represent people and 10 members viewing this 30 times is not the same as 300 members viewing it once. Regardless, there are more views to this topic, showing greater interest in the conversation, once again, good or bad.
These are just my two sense on the two opposing sides of the arguement. I know which side im on but its not my personality or place to openly disclose it. Im simply pointing out the good parts of both arguements. The only reason I'm posting to begin with is because I feel obligated to share my views after having the experience of dealing with these same problems at an ARTCC level. I hope that everyone (Not just Staff) will take the best of both sides and compromise, as there is no reason to get all worked up over a very fun, afternoon hobby. What happens, happens and if it is the will of the staff then I say hey, they are trusted with the position, lets let them know our concerns and position, and then trust the leaders to lead. If it works out great! If not, good try. And those that complain should apply for the openings. Because the only way to change things and to get results is to be active, be involved, be sensible, and follow the system. If you don't like it, change it.
Phew. All done!
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there is no reason to get all worked up over a very fun, afternoon hobby. What happens, happens and if it is the will of the staff then I say hey, they are trusted with the position, lets let them know our concerns and position, and then trust the leaders to lead. If it works out great! If not, good try. And those that complain should apply for the openings. Because the only way to change things and to get results is to be active, be involved, be sensible, and follow the system. If you don't like it, change it.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
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[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]OK, right off the bat, your first statement is incorrect. Just because the questions you WANT to be answered aren't being answered, doesn't mean the leadership feels its none of our business.[/quote]
I didn't say that is WHAT it meant; I stated how it made ME feel. My point is by not responding to a question or request we as a community are being disrespected.
[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]With regards to the vacancies of the Training Director and ATD spot, where's the problem? Just because titles exist and there isn't a name associated with the title, doesn't necessarily mean the responsibilities of the position aren't being filled[/quote]
And now I suppose a Deputy Director.
If I lost both arms and a leg I could surely function, not as efficiently as I could with all my limbs but sure I could get by, make people laugh, earn a living, but it sure is going to be harder on my one leg. The positions were put into place for a reason left unfilled it puts unnecessary strain on others and less important things get put on the back burner so to speak. Tom thanks for taking up the slack.
[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]And what would you like this policy to say? I can't imagine how you could make this policy objective in any way.[/quote]
Something to the effect of:
Upon the vacancy of (insert position here) an announcement shall be made to the membership that the division is accepting applicants to fill said position within a certain time frame. The pool of applicants shall then be reviewed by the Division Director and Deputy Director and a suitable applicant shall be chosen to fill said position within a reasonable amount of time. Blah Blah.
And those that complain should apply for the openings. Because the only way to change things and to get results is to be active, be involved, be sensible, and follow the system. If you don't like it, change it.
I'm working on it
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I consider this an evening hobby.
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From this whole topic... The one thing I well and truly believe in is this being implemented
Upon the vacancy of (Divisional staff position) an announcement shall be made to the membership that the division is accepting applicants to fill said position when it is established that the position needs to be filled. The pool of applicants shall then be reviewed by the Division Director and Deputy Director (If there is one) and a suitable applicant shall be chosen.
I have edited the above quote to represent my feelings.
To take a recent example, the VATUSA6 position filled by Michael Martin (Congratulations to him by the way), was never advertised by Gary, though it was advertised many moons ago following the resignations of the then current VATUSA1, VATUASA3 and VATUSA9 by Bryan Wollenberg.
Bryan took applicants and I was assured that applications would be sent to the next DD... Which I have the utmost faith in Bryan that they were.
Following Gary's hiring as DD, the NOTAM was removed and when I questioned the DD about this position I was told that the VATUSA6 position will not be filled. I accepted this, and moved on. Then, Michael Martin was offered the position of VATUSA6... I have no problem with this, especially because I have worked closely with Michael before and respect his web development skills, I have a problem with the fact that there was not a fair chance given to others who may have wished to take the position, especially as VATUSA strongly encourage ATM's to open positions for applications if you have a position open that you want filled, instead of hiring your favorite guy right off the bat. This is for good reason, you may find somebody that you prefer more then your original favorite guy... .
My .02 cents, although they'd probably be disregarded because as I'm not VATUSA Staff "I have no interest nor privilege of influence about the operation of VATUSA".
Cheers!
Rahul
P.S. Harold, I consider this more of a night-time don't wake the wife/kids hobby.... xD
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Rahul,
While VATUSA may (I don't know the current standing on this) encourage ATMs to open positions for applications, it doesn't mean they are compelled to have an open application process. While I was DATM and later ATM, I don't recall my ATM or myself being forced to open applications before we picked someone to fulfill the staff role. Besides, look at other parts of VATSIM. The BoG doesn't solicit applications for all open positions.
If you come across someone in your travels that has all the qualities you feel are needed to fulfill the vacant position, why search for more people?
[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]My .02 cents, although they'd probably be disregarded because as I'm not VATUSA Staff "I have no interest nor privilege of influence about the operation of VATUSA".[/quote] While yours, mine, and everyone else's posts may be discarded, I really doubt it's because we are not members of VATUSA Staff. It may, however, be that the staff of VATUSA disagrees with our stance, and for that reason disregards it.
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[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]While yours, mine, and everyone else's posts may be discarded, I really doubt it's because we are not members of VATUSA Staff. It may, however, be that the staff of VATUSA disagrees with our stance, and for that reason disregards it.[/quote]
All I'm going to say on that matter is that you'd be surprised.
Moving on to the first point, I agree that the BoG doesn't solicit applications for all positions, but they do solicit applications for the majority of positions, and while we're looking at other parts of VATSIM, I have yet to see an RD position go filled without soliciting applications.
Also, due to the fact that their superiors strongly suggest it, some ATM's may feel compelled to do it, purely because of the fact their superiors so strongly suggest it.
And what if you open up the position and somebody who fills all those qualities with bigger tick marks comes along? I'd rather have the second person come along in my opinion.
Cheers!
Rahul
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I have received no notification since assuming the ATM position that I am supposed to -- or should -- open applications to the community (either internally or internally and externally) prior to hiring anyone. I do that out of personal preference, but not out of anyone else's suggestion.
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[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]if you don't like the rules they have set, you can leave whenever you want to. Last I checked, the exit door isn't locked.[/quote]
This is the whole problem with VATSIM as a whole right now. This like it or leave mentality is completely the wrong attitude to have with the members. I have seen so many former members of this network finally take the Founders et al's advice and pack it up. The problem is, these are the members that have so much knowledge of practices and procedures around the world (flying and ATC) that could make such a positive impact on our network. I competely understand if the Founders don't want to take the network in a certain direction, however there is a difference between that and completely turning a deaf (or worse) ear on suggestions for the betterment of the network.
Sadly, it seems that this mentality only affects the people that want to contribute to the network. I rarely see those that don't care or are only in this because it's fun to do an airshow over LAX don't have to subscribe to the same ideal. They are at worst suspended, only to make a new account and continue with the fun. Somehow they aren't being show the exit door nearly as fast.
At the end of the day, the politics don't matter. As long as I'm happy with my experience from the network, then nothing else matters.
Are there things that I'd like to see improved? Yes.
Do poor or intentionally disruptive pilots get under my skin from time to time? Absolutely.
Are the friendships I've gained from this experience worth it? I wouldn't trade them for the world.
Can I still push myself to control to a more realistic standard? Yes, as long as I accept that others cannot fly or control to the same standard by choice or ability.
Is it worth looking for that exit door? Absolutely Not! The negatives far underweigh the positives, and even after the worst day imaginable on the network, I'm still happy with the experience.
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Michael,
You certainly have very valid concerns. As was already mentioned, I am NOT also the Deputy Director. I had to put myself into that position on the website while Gary took over because of how the website was coded. Only certain VATUSA staff members have access to various features of the VATUSA website, and I needed that access during Gary's transition to Director. I just...haven't been removed yet.
As far as the position vacancies, there are no requirements to fill the vacancies, nor will there ever be. In fact, there are no requirements to have any of the positions in the first place. There was a time in VATUSA when there weren't 15+ VATUSA staff members. The number gradually got inflated over the years (for good or bad). Gary has stated on numerous occassions his desire to return to a more simple staff structure, and that's what he has done. The same goes for ARTCCs. There is no requirement anywhere to have a webmaster, facility engineer, etc. If the ATM wants them to go vacant, that is his/her prerogative. It's really up to the Division to delegate how the duties are generally delegated.
As has been said, other staff members have been filling in for the "vacant" positions, and have done a fine job, I might add. Just because the positions are "vacant" does not mean the work is not getting accomplished.
Rahul, of course they were passed along, as part of Gary's initial briefing.
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Bryan, I knew my faith was not misplaced...
I also agree with the fact that because a position is vacant, doesn't mean it's not getting done, it just means it's not getting done by someone specifically assigned to that task.
Cheers!
Rahul
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Gary has stated on numerous occassions his desire to return to a more simple staff structure, and that's what he has done.
Bryan,
That is fine. That is his decision and he has every right to make that. I feel that most members would be ok with this decision. But how are we as members supposed to know this is the philosophy of our Director if we are not informed of this decision. Where is he saying this? He obviously talked to you about this which is awesome. But what are we supposed to go off of? The only thing we have as of current..... is the past. Out of human nature we will base the current happenings off of what has happened in the past unless we are told otherwise.
I may have missed this information in a post somewhere but i have searched and have not found anything.
I do not discredit any of the work that is being done or has been done or will be done. But i dont think that what Mike or other members are asking for is too much. Just a simple update. "Hey members. This is where VATUSA is headed"....ect That is all.
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Bryan, I knew my faith was not misplaced...
I also agree with the fact that because a position is vacant, doesn't mean it's not getting done, it just means it's not getting done by someone specifically assigned to that task.
Cheers!
Rahul
I understand the logic.. "if you want it done right, do it yourself".. or " too many cooks spoil the soup".. however.. I believe you have to "trust" and "keep the faith". I know that sometimes backfires, but for me at American Virtual, it has worked very well, we have staff member with specific duties, and I trust them to do it. Sure, I could do it all myself, because it's really not difficult of a v/job. Another thing it does is get the "general" members an oportunity to "give back" to the organization. That being said... "to each his/her own". I don't see VATUSA falling apart, and I'm sure Gary is doing a fine job. Hope I didn't ruffle any feathers, just stating my opinions.... and I know, I know... what is said about opinions.. LOL
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Delegation prevents burn out!
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Delegation prevents burn out!
Not always. It can also keep you up nights worrying about where someone else may have left the keys to your castle.
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Not always. It can also keep you up nights worrying about where someone else may have left the keys to your castle.
Exactly. Delegation is a double edged sword and really, it's up to the individual to decide what he thinks is best. Nate, as for your comment, again, it doesn't matter if he announces it to the world or doesn't tell anyone what he plans to do. It's his philosophy and what he's operating on. Do you (or anyone else) really believe that a staff position is left vacant because Gary just feels like leaving it vacant? Most things are done (or not done) for a reason. The reason doesn't need to be known to anyone but the person in charge.
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Most things are done (or not done) for a reason. The reason doesn't need to be known to anyone but the person in charge.
That works in the Army, or in a corporation. It doesn't work in a volunteer organization - the only currency you have to attract and retain volunteers is engagement and participation. If you don't want to communicate to members, you shouldn't be surprised if you can't find enough engaged volunteers.
I presume that VATUSA has an overwhelming number of controllers where all positions are being staffed and they need to turn people away?
Cheers!
Luke
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Exactly. Delegation is a double edged sword and really, it's up to the individual to decide what he thinks is best. Nate, as for your comment, again, it doesn't matter if he announces it to the world or doesn't tell anyone what he plans to do. It's his philosophy and what he's operating on. Do you (or anyone else) really believe that a staff position is left vacant because Gary just feels like leaving it vacant? Most things are done (or not done) for a reason. The reason doesn't need to be known to anyone but the person in charge.
John,
Sure we can just sit back and wait and see what happens.....but some of us invest countless hours into this division to help make it better. My experience is at the ARTCC level. ARTCCS are what make this division. To ask a simple question and not be given an answer or anything for that matter is a slap in the face. Without the members you have no division to run. (and please do not reply with the "there is the door reply. Mr Bartels had a great response to that thinking) The philosophy that you are implying may work for a while, but eventually those that do care for this division and work hard for this division will be gone. Is a simple heads up really that much to ask? It is not like we are asking a play by play of the events of every day at VATUSA. Just something to chew on for a while. If it is too much to ask then that all someone needs to say. So, someone please throw us a bone. Nothing sense 2009 pretty bad.
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That works in the Army, or in a corporation. It doesn't work in a volunteer organization - the only currency you have to attract and retain volunteers is engagement and participation. If you don't want to communicate to members, you shouldn't be surprised if you can't find enough engaged volunteers.
I presume that VATUSA has an overwhelming number of controllers where all positions are being staffed and they need to turn people away?
Cheers!
Luke
That's nonsense. The process of engaging volunteers has nothing to do with knowing what's going on behind the curtain at a level that most members will never care about. They want to control and they want to fly and as long as the network is there when they want to do that then all is fine with the world. They care more about what happened last night on the ARTCC Teamspeak. You want to disenfranchise your volunteers watch how fast someone with an agenda can tear apart an ARTCC.
For the most part what goes on at the "corporate level" doesn't effect any of us unless there are decisions being made that change our day to day operations. I don't need to know what Gary is doing to do my job or see to it that my controllers are having fun doing theirs, all I need to know is that he's paying the electric bill each month so the network doesn't go down. It's not my job to be a watchdog of the corporate office. There are other people higher up on the food chain who are tasked to do that.
That goes for staffing the office as well. I don't care if a few desks sit empty as long as the job is being done. As far as I'm concerned the only state of the state I want to hear is "things are fine, nothing has changed now go play".
But then no one would have anything to argue about and there wouldn't be an excuse to start another discussion on what's right or wrong with VATUSA.
So not to defend Gary or anything, he is certainly able to do that himself, but what is it exactly you would have him say? "I haven't filled any of the positions because I don't see the need right now?"
What else? I must admit I am quite curious what it is that people are so interested in hearing that the managment style of VATUSA1 is being questioned.
As for the comment that trying to get answers to questions is like pulling teeth I must admit that I myself have not experienced that problem and so I can't address it. Whenever I have a question for Gary he has been most forthcoming in his response. He doesn't always get to it right away, but I presume that he prioritizes his correspondance in some manner and I am alright with that because he has never not gotten back to me.
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Is this topic done yet?
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Is this topic done yet?
Sorry Boss. I know. Be there in time for supper......
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And where is my invitation to the soiree???
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Blue-bu-badu
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And where is my invitation to the soiree???
You mean the coup d'état?
This is a huge waste of time. The approach was wrong from the "pre-planning stage." Have to look past the surface.
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You're overlooking the intrinsic entertainment value, Nick.
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You're overlooking the intrinsic entertainment value, Nick.
Haha, I cashed in on that immediately.
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I'm always in for a good old coup d'etat! Count me in.
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I'm always in for a good old coup d'etat! Count me in.
Are you looking for any staff for VATPAN? Lol.
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I'm sure Pan can come up with a long list of titles and important badges the applicants could have/wear!
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I'm sure Pan can come up with a long list of titles and important badges the applicants could have/wear!
I want a sash and some flare.
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And where is my invitation to the soiree???
Here you go!
Could you please answer your email for once?