VATUSA Forums
General => Events => Topic started by: Jawaun Magee on July 05, 2018, 09:26:12 PM
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(http://i64.tinypic.com/2gtuide.png)
Back by popular demand, the Chicago ARTCC proudly presents VatVenture 2018! To celebrate the EAA AirVenture event, the controllers of Chicago will be staffing up KOSH in Oshkosh, Wisconsin on Saturday, July 28th from 1700z - 2100z. We invite everyone to bring out their aircraft and have some great summer fun!
NOTAMS FOR KOSH VATVENTURE EVENT BELOW PLEASE READ:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1y2dZw9BN9UK8whylyajv80SlFh1yQe3zLr6WgLzs9So/edit?ts=5b52c04d
Special Guest: FSX Blue Angels
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0_iDMhZn18
There is scenery available for FSX at http://www.theskylounge.tv/files/file/39-fsxa-oshkosh-airventure-2016-kosh/ . You must register for the site to download. Includes the color spots and other features. Also works fine in P3Dv4.
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There is scenery available for FSX at http://www.theskylounge.tv/files/file/39-fsxa-oshkosh-airventure-2016-kosh/ . You must register for the site to download. Includes the color spots and other features. Also works fine in P3Dv4.
(https://i.imgur.com/ivoWA3H.jpg)
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Thanks Nick
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2018 real-world NOTAM for those interested: https://www.eaa.org/~/media/files/airventure/flyingin/2018-notam.pdf
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Here's an X-Plane 11 KOSH scenery: https://forums.x-plane.org/index.php?/files/file/42118-kosh-wittman-regional-eaa-airventure/
Required Libraries:
OpenSceneryX
3D People Library
R2 Library
FJS Library
RD_Library
PM Library
FF Library
GT Library
MisterX6 Library
Handy Objects Library
JB_Library
BS2001 library
RuScenery
US Treelines & Farms?
World Models Library
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Darnit, I can only make the last hour. Any idea on when the Blue Angels are preforming?
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so what happens if i want to fly in at 2102z?
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LOL Special accommodations for the ATM LOL.
That's funny.But I am not an ATM, and neither are the other 675 people who have viewed this announcement and may be flying in or out that day. I think Luke asks a valid question and deserves to be answered. What will happen to the pilots waiting to depart? What will happen to the pilots already in the air? The NOTAM said pilots should expect delays. Does that mean arriving flights, should expect to be assigned a HOLD some time during their arrival?
Was the flying demonstration in the original announcement? I don't remember seeing it and I noticed that the post was edited on Monday. Was this added after the original announcement was first posted?
There are a lot of questions that I think need to be asked here. For example, how are people supposed to be able to see this demonstration you have planned? Will everyone have to be using vPilot and model matching in order to see it? Sign on to utube or something? Like I said, I think there are a lot of questions to be asked still.
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That's funny.But I am not an ATM, and neither are the other 675 people who have viewed this announcement and may be flying in or out that day. I think Luke asks a valid question and deserves to be answered. What will happen to the pilots waiting to depart? What will happen to the pilots already in the air? The NOTAM said pilots should expect delays. Does that mean arriving flights, should expect to be assigned a HOLD some time during their arrival?
I asked Luke personally if he was joking about this question on teamspeak, and relayed his response to Jamar before he made the "ATM Exemption" post:
<14:35:45> "Clay Brock": on your last post for the OSH event
<14:35:52> "Clay Brock": were you kidding?
<14:35:57> "Luke Kakert": yes lol
<14:36:04> "Clay Brock": ok
<14:36:23> "Clay Brock": sorry, just the sarcasm doesn't come across as easily in writing
<14:36:49> "Luke Kakert": but i am 100% sure there are going to be people that wont like the "airport is closed" part
<14:36:55> "Luke Kakert": i was just trying to be funny
<14:37:06> "Luke Kakert": and alot of people cant take a joke on here anymore
I do see the validity in the question though , so here is the answer, as stated previously:
KOSH airport will close to traffic at 2100z, and the FSX Blue Angels will start their modified demo at that time.
Out of respect to the FSX Blue Angels, we will not allow pilots to depart or arrive KOSH until the demonstration is over. Unless an emergency is declared, KOSH will be closed for the duration of the FSXBA demo. Pilots will have 4 whole hours to fly in with ATC, and if they cannot make the airport in that amount of time, then they will have to divert, or reconnect on the ground at OSH to watch the demonstration.
In regards these final questions:
how are people supposed to be able to see this demonstration you have planned? Will everyone have to be using vPilot and model matching in order to see it? Sign on to utube or something?
Pilots will be able to see the FSX Blue Angel demo by being connected to VATSIM on the ground at KOSH. No specific pilot client is required to watch the demonstration, but model matching will be at the pilot's discretion. As far as I'm aware, the FSXBA team will connect to the network under the type code "F18". People can set up model matching as necessary using this information.
Note that FSX vPilot users should not encounter model matching issues, as FSX has a default F18, and vPilot uses airplanes in the sim for model matching
I hope this post clears up most of the confusion, and if there are any other questions, please feel free to ask.
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Osh Kosh cannot be closed per VATSIM guidelines. As Ryan put it, out of respect (CoC A.1) for their group, we ask that you park up on the grass and enjoy the show, just as pilots in the real world would do. If you would like to fly into the airport during that time, that's your decision to interrupt the hard work of your fellow pilots and members of the community.
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I mean I guess you can't close it, but you can hold aircraft due to the Blue Angel traffic.
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That's funny.But I am not an ATM, and neither are the other 675 people who have viewed this announcement and may be flying in or out that day. I think Luke asks a valid question and deserves to be answered. What will happen to the pilots waiting to depart? What will happen to the pilots already in the air? The NOTAM said pilots should expect delays. Does that mean arriving flights, should expect to be assigned a HOLD some time during their arrival?
I asked Luke personally if he was joking about this question on teamspeak, and relayed his response to Jamar before he made the "ATM Exemption" post:
<14:35:45> "Clay Brock": on your last post for the OSH event
<14:35:52> "Clay Brock": were you kidding?
<14:35:57> "Luke Kakert": yes lol
<14:36:04> "Clay Brock": ok
<14:36:23> "Clay Brock": sorry, just the sarcasm doesn't come across as easily in writing
<14:36:49> "Luke Kakert": but i am 100% sure there are going to be people that wont like the "airport is closed" part
<14:36:55> "Luke Kakert": i was just trying to be funny
<14:37:06> "Luke Kakert": and alot of people cant take a joke on here anymore
I do see the validity in the question though , so here is the answer, as stated previously:
KOSH airport will close to traffic at 2100z, and the FSX Blue Angels will start their modified demo at that time.
Out of respect to the FSX Blue Angels, we will not allow pilots to depart or arrive KOSH until the demonstration is over. Unless an emergency is declared, KOSH will be closed for the duration of the FSXBA demo. Pilots will have 4 whole hours to fly in with ATC, and if they cannot make the airport in that amount of time, then they will have to divert, or reconnect on the ground at OSH to watch the demonstration.
In regards these final questions:
how are people supposed to be able to see this demonstration you have planned? Will everyone have to be using vPilot and model matching in order to see it? Sign on to utube or something?
Pilots will be able to see the FSX Blue Angel demo by being connected to VATSIM on the ground at KOSH. No specific pilot client is required to watch the demonstration, but model matching will be at the pilot's discretion. As far as I'm aware, the FSXBA team will connect to the network under the type code "F18". People can set up model matching as necessary using this information.
Note that FSX vPilot users should not encounter model matching issues, as FSX has a default F18, and vPilot uses airplanes in the sim for model matching
I hope this post clears up most of the confusion, and if there are any other questions, please feel free to ask.
Oh, I have a lot more questions, but they will keep until after the event. And they will be asked of the staff of ZAU. You know, the people who are ultimately responsible for the event, and not some visiting controller who has taken it upon himself to interpret for the rest of us what the rules of the event are.
Good luck Saturday.
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KOSH airport will close to traffic at 2100z, and the FSX Blue Angels will start their modified demo at that time.
Thanks for the information! That means I'll be able to watch :)
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I was unaware of any VATSIM rules prohibiting the closure of airspace during my prior posts, and I am sorry for adding to the confusion of this thread.
Ryan said it the best: "Out of respect (CoC A.1) for their group, we ask that you park up on the grass and enjoy the show, just as pilots in the real world would do."
For those who are wondering why I am so involved in this post, let me explain:
On July 2nd, in the event forum, Nick Warren asked if there would be an Oshkosh 2018 event. After a few days with no response, I asked Jamar Finch, the EC of ZAU (And a good friend), if OSH 18' was planned. He said that it was not on his radar, but he would love to hold the event again. Since Jamar was not there for last year's event, and I was, he asked if I would help him out in making VatVenture 2018. I helped explain how Oshkosh works in the real world, and how he could improve the realism for VatVenture from last year. He was grateful for my help and put up an amazing event and NOTAM packet in the forums on the SAME DAY we talked. Later on, I contacted Jamar about a unique way to spice up the event from last year by having the FSX Blue Angels perform at Oshkosh during the event on the network. He was really supportive of my idea, so I went to an old friend from the FSX Blue Angels, named Ben, and asked if he and his team would like to participate in VatVenture 2018. He was also very fond of this unique opportunity, so I set up a meeting time with Jamar, Ben, and myself to hash out the details of how the demonstration would be integrated into VatVenture 2018. At the end of this meeting, it was my understanding that OSH would close to traffic at the end of the event (2100z), so that the FSX Blue Angels could perform while connected to the live network. (At the time we didn't know that closing OSH would be against VATSIM regulations). Pilots could view the demo by being connected to VATSIM, and parked on the grass or ramp at OSH.
Since I was one of the few people with this knowledge, I felt that I could help by answering some of the questions posed by members in this forum. Evidently, I should not have provided answers to these questions, as I am just "some visiting controller" who doesn't know anything about this event.
I will concede that this issue could've been handled better by having Jamar answer questions based on information discussed in the meeting, rather than myself. In the future I will make sure to let the ARTCC field questions regarding their event, no matter how much affiliation I have.
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Per the real world NOTAMs and TFRs, the airport will be closed for the aerial demonstration.
Well, if you want to get that specific, the airshow TFR is 1930-2330z on that date.
There is nothing to require VATSIM pilots to read any vNOTAM that may be concocted, nor is there any mechanism to ensure pilots have visibility to such NOTAMs.
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I have to question if telling pilots to sit in the grass and watch an airshow is an appropriate use of VATSIM under CoC B14 which prohibits the use of non-active callsigns for extended periods of time. A user connected to watch an airshow is not participating as a pilot, air traffic controller, instructor, or designated staff member engaging in administrative duties.
As an aside, Airshows / formation flights do not render very well on the network due to the slow update rate coupled with the fast changes of direction of the aircraft. Thus the interpolation gets it wrong and you will see a lot of erroneous positions of the aircraft.
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This is why we can't have nice things. Thank you Clay and Jamar for trying to make a nice event and add in a little outside the box fun in the spirit of Air Venture. Shame it is getting ridiculously political.
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This is getting pretty pathetic. EAA is about coming together as pilots and enthusiasts to share our greatest passion. I respect the effort that has gone in to this event's planning, and I wish it well.
I'm doing a preflight as we speak, and I hoped to come in to this thread to find a group of guys doing a fly-in together. Instead, I was greeted with selfish rule-plucking, and a lot of what I hope is just trolling.
That being said, if anyone would like to fly in together this afternoon-please let me know. I will be in the area most of the day, so just shoot me a DM.
**I don't mean to offend. I empathize with those who want every little detail to be perfect. The reality is, Airventure is tough enough to pull off in real-life. Re-creating it in the sim requires some serious dedication- but more importantly it requires a bit of patience and imagination on our parts.**
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WOW! Just WOW! What an amazing event! Thank you so much to everyone who flew in, and also showed support for the FSX Blue Angels. That was probably the most fun I've ever had controlling on the network! We had over 20 airplanes on the ground to watch the show, and countless arrivals during the event. What a truly perfect example of a community coming together to create something spectacular. Thanks again to everyone that flew in, and we'll see you on the scopes next year!
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Please support this event for the future. As FSXBA#2 (Zino), I really enjoyed participating in this event. Hope this happens again next year. Thumbs up to the organizer, and good job FSX BA guys. Great team, fun to fly with you guys. Cheers!
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Clay, you rocked it today! The Blue Angels show was amazing. I was sorry to see you didn't have much help on the scopes or in the cab, but you handled it like a true professional. The politics from certain administrators were ridiculous, and you, and the support you received from the community, show what this network can truly be about. Thank you to you and your staff for promoting a wonderful event!
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Everybody,
Just a huge thanks to the FSX Blue Angels! And also big thanks to a great friend Clay Brock for helping me get this event on the calendar. And a superb job to the pilots for there cooperation through it all!
Thanks so much
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Thank you Clay For such an amazing event! I honesty hope that this event continues into the future, as flying in and watching the blue angels preform was probably the most fun I've ever had on the network. when most of the pilots actually understand what is going on, the Fisk approach frequency is just amazing to listen to. Regardless of any bureaucracy, I am truely glad I got to experience VatVenture 2018.
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Thank you Clay for being on today and providing the very professional ATC! An amazing event!
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Clay, you rocked it today! The Blue Angels show was amazing. I was sorry to see you didn't have much help on the scopes or in the cab, but you handled it like a true professional. The politics from certain administrators were ridiculous, and you, and the support you received from the community, show what this network can truly be about. Thank you to you and your staff for promoting a wonderful event!
You know something Nick, you've been around here a pretty long time. If anyone in this discussion should be concerned about screwing things up for the future I would that would be you. But here you are, leading everyone astray with your off-hand comments about how the politicians are taking all the fun out of life.
So for everyone who is jumping on the bandwagon here let me 'splain you all something. To begin with, Matt's involvement is because that's his job. He's here to help make events better. Better for the controllers, better for the pilots, better for all of us. And if I were you I would be more worried about the questions he didn't ask than the ones he did.
Can you close an airport? Nope.
Can you create a class of pilots and make them vulnerable to facing sanctions for violating the CoC?
Does CoC A(1) apply and to whom, the pilots who make it in or the ones who don't?
If memory serves those are just the ones that have already been brought to light. I can give you a list of problems with what was just done that would make your head spin. But that's not the point, or our job. Our job is to help you make this work, believe it or not. So if this had been planned out in advance, Matt could have sat down with you, anticipated the problems and helped make it so they weren't problems. Perhaps doing silly little things like getting approval upfront so that the Supervisors wouldn't descend on all of those pilots sitting around for so long. Or getting special permission for the Angels do their thing without breaking the various rules they broke.
Guys, we're not here to make life difficult. We're here to see if there is a way to make this happen again next year, or next week, or whenever. Because it is a new and novel idea, and it may be worth looking into further. But only if everyone cooperates and stops taking pot shots at those people who are here to help.
And that's my two cents worth.
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Did I just get dad talked on the forum? Oh well. Yes Ira, I have been here for some time. We'll just say since inception, and SATCO before that. From that I can tell you, I am more concerned about staleness "screwing things up" than I am progression. VATSIM came about when...2001? The CoC goes back to 2003? It's stale, and it's no wonder people who were valued members on this network are now breaking off to form new ventures. I, like you, see on a constant basis, much more profound deviations from the CoC.
I called you an administrator, not a politician. I know you don't base your decisions on the approval or disapproval of the group, as a politician would. I did say, you guys were playing politics on here, and you were. You, and Matt aired your questions and grievances about this event in public forum, therefore, you have no place to fault anyone else for injecting their opposing comment on the matter. I have every much the privilege to stand up for the spirit of the event, as you guys do to fall down and hit your head on the CoC.
So let's talk about the CoC. First of all, there is nothing in A1 that applied here. Nobody was discourteous or disrespectful in the planning or execution of this event. I don't see B14 applying either, as every callsign had to be related to a pilot at some point during the event, but I'll remain flexible with the play on words as I am with the monitoring of unicom. I really don't know what you are getting at regarding a "class of pilots". Can you close an airport? I don't know. Where does it say you can or can't? It isn't in the CoC. Actually several ARTCC SOP languages include a section for closure of runways and/or airports, and the phrase "prohibited to do so" isn't included in that language. Whatever the beef is with the Blue Angels performance, I will stay away from. I imagine it is some vSOA issue, which, goes back to antiquated policy. They did a stellar and professional job.
In the end, the controller of the event just opted to cease ATC operations at the designated hour, in which no rules became violated, except of course for those who still diminished the enjoyment of others by choosing to depart or arrive when there was traffic in the immediate vicinity of the field or runway area. Even if it was a formation of aircraft in orchestrated aerobatic maneuvering. Going back to the majority of ARTCC SOP's on the matter. The runway or airport may choose to be closed by approval of the shift supervisor in which pilots may still arrive or depart under their own risk. Essentially what happened today.
The people showed what is possible on this network with some updates; and really Ira, that was my central theme in the entire post. This event, the extras, and the community that chose to rise up and respond the way it did, is what shows what is possible. I think by reading your words, you know that deep down inside that it is possible to do so.. If it's your goal to make things like this a consistent reality for the community, then I will stand up and applaud that. If it's your goal to cut red tape, and bring us out of the turn of the century, then I applaud that. That wasn't what happened in this forum thread though, and that wasn't what you guys showed to the community. I know we can do better on all sides, and I as a long time member, welcome those changes.
Nick
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Regardless of the politics, this event was a cool idea! I wish I could've been there and it seems like it was really fun! Congrats to all the guys who pulled this off. I'd love to see this happen again next year!
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I started to write a reply to Nick but decided that it would serve no purpose to continue bantering this back and forth for the world to see. It's clear to me that we are arguing several different issues so I am going to craft a reply in private, that we may continue the discussion without interruption or outside commentary.
Thank you all for your comments, and I am glad the event went well.[size=78%] [/size]
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Reasonable and appreciated. I look forward to the dialogue.