Controlling the Arrivals

Michael Martin

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« Reply #45 on: March 14, 2012, 07:37:25 PM »
[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]Vectoring 101 teaches us to vector at or above the MVA, and if people can't do that by the time they're an S3, then it would be interesting to know why not.[/quote]


Seeing as there is no requirement in the GRP that mentions the MVA, an S3 is not required to have knowledge of the MVA.
Michael Martin
VATUSA 6

Daniel Hawton

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« Reply #46 on: March 14, 2012, 07:51:03 PM »
Quote from: Michael Martin
Seeing as there is no requirement in the GRP that mentions the MVA, an S3 is not required to have knowledge of the MVA.

Sure it does, under S3, section E Traffic Management

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]3) Provides suitable vectors to aircraft when require[/quote]

Suitable vectors to me is inclusive of "Don't vector that guy into that skyscraper over there" (or mountain, or what have you).

While it is perfectly legal to vector below the MVA as a radar controller, there are some stipulations that must be followed prior to doing so.  But MVAs, to me, are included under the GRP III(E)(3).

Michael Martin

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« Reply #47 on: March 14, 2012, 07:54:17 PM »
Like you said before Daniel, its all interpretation.

To me, Vectors are not altitudes, they are headings.
Michael Martin
VATUSA 6

Daniel Hawton

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« Reply #48 on: March 14, 2012, 08:05:52 PM »
Quote from: Michael Martin
Like you said before Daniel, its all interpretation.

To me, Vectors are not altitudes, they are headings.

Headings that take you into a mountain.. how can those be called suitable?  Just curious.  I never said vectors are altitudes, vectors are nothing except  headings.  However, a vector into a solid object is or should be an unsuitable vector.

You also have this, III(D)(3) which covers altitudes (specific descents)

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]3: Issues descent and provides runway assignment or reiteration[/quote]

And then you have the ambiguous coverage of III(G)(2)

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]2: Provides additional information or navigation service[/quote]

Navigation service can also be used to say "Keep them vectored away from those dangerous pixels".  I don't think ensuring APP/DEP controllers know and follow an MVA can be classified as something the GRP was attempting to prevent a controller from knowing.  After all, imagine the outcry from pilots if controllers in ZSE, ZLC and ZDV started vectoring people into the mountains, or ZNY and ZLA controllers started vectoring people into the major downtown cities.  I think, if anything, it's unjustifiable and a disservice to everyone (pilots and students) to say "Oh, since the GRP doesn't specifically say they have to know about MVAs then they aren't included".
« Last Edit: March 14, 2012, 08:07:03 PM by Daniel Hawton »

Don Desfosse

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« Reply #49 on: March 14, 2012, 08:07:31 PM »
Yes, vectors are headings, but suitable vectors are suitable/appropriate/survivable in 3D airspace.  If you disagree, please let me know the next time you want to fly in my airspace....  I'll attempt to illustrate why headings alone don't make for suitable vectors.... And please make sure your crash detection is on.....
Don Desfosse
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Harold Rutila

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« Reply #50 on: March 14, 2012, 08:19:38 PM »
Quote from: Michael Martin
Seeing as there is no requirement in the GRP that mentions the MVA, an S3 is not required to have knowledge of the MVA.
There's also no requirement that controllers operate their radar client with their monitors or speakers turned on. That's a ridiculous argument.

Mark Hubbert

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« Reply #51 on: April 05, 2012, 11:19:10 PM »
What a great laugh you guys have given me.  'WHY CANT WE BE FRIENDS, WHY CANT WE BE FRIENDS, WHY CANT WE BE FRIENDS, WHY CANT WE BE FRIENDS."?
Mark Hubbert
Division Director VATUSA Retired

Romano Lara

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« Reply #52 on: April 13, 2012, 11:59:36 PM »
Quote from: Harold Rutila
There's also no requirement that controllers operate their radar client with their monitors or speakers turned on. That's a ridiculous argument.

Where is the like button here?

Personally, with all the flying I've been doing recently.. I would always ask en-route to give me a shortcut. And always happy to receive one. Seldom do I follow the SID, unless it gets me around a terrain, otherwise, I would just go direct to the first fix in my flight plan. I do the same for STARS. I'd prefer to go directly to the IAF. If someone vectors me directly to an IAF, I would be eternally grateful. (:
Romano Lara
Anchorage ARTCC, C1