VATUSA Forums
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: J Jason Vodnansky on March 17, 2010, 11:37:00 PM
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When will the VATNA website comply with requirements of the Code of Regulations? Better yet, why wasn't it set up in compliance with the CoR?
It seems that following the rules still is optional in VATSIM, or shall we call it "selective enforcement"?
Regards,
Jason Vodnansky
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When will the VATNA website comply with requirements of the Code of Regulations? Better yet, why wasn't it set up in compliance with the CoR?
It seems that following the rules still is optional in VATSIM, or shall we call it "selective enforcement"?
Regards,
Jason Vodnansky
No, no selective enforcement. Andrew and I thought we covered everything we were supposed to when he originally designed it. If you enlighten me on what is missing instead of just spouting your usual snide remarks, I'll fix it.
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I don't think I should have to quote the rules to the Regional Director, but since you asked...
Might I suggest a read of CoR 3.05, B, 1...
Nothing "snide" about it. Black and white, and its been that way since the beginning. Or did we miss reading the section about duties of the RD since the website isn't the only issue...
Yes, that WAS snide.
Jason Vodnansky
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Oh my! The sky is falling! I have a contact form instead of listing the email addresses for me and Karl. And that ever elusive link to the EC website? Updated to point to the new one.
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Uh, where did I say the sky was falling?
See how easy that was? Now you have taken 2 items off my list, and I have 2 less items to complain about...
Jason Vodnansky
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Guess I should have looked before giving you credit on the email addresses.
The rule is pretty clear on that too...
Item back on the list...
Jason Vodnansky
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Glad to hear it! I was actually getting worried that I wasn't checking enough items off your list.
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The Code of Regs indicates quite clearly that the Regional Director is [!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]...accountable to the users of VATSIM and the members of the divisions which make up his or her region.[/quote]
I'm sorry that I am actually trying to hold him accountable as is my right under the rules set up on this network.
Thanks,
JV
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It's in the way that you use it, Jason. Instead of implying that the RD was doing his job poorly (and indirectly suggesting that you, yourself could have done a better job at it), you might try putting in some language that shows that you understand that the RD (and all of the other members of the VATSIM staff) have a lot to do, and that you appreciate their time. Perhaps you could try throwing that in every once in a while. Perhaps you don't say so because in fact you do not appreciate their time and dedication?
Next, you might try to stop alleging misbehavior on the part of these dedicated volunteers at every chance you get. It is not appreciated by the defendants, nor is it appreciated by their colleagues (such as myself), and it only results in discontent on the part of the onlookers of your sililoquies. My point is that you are accomplishing only negative goals with your current methods.
Or, if you prefer, you can continue to check your local jar of vinegar to see how many flies you have so far. As we continue to hear reports of controllers having transferred out of your ARTCC in order to distance themselves from you personally, perhaps you might try to decode the hidden message behind these actions.
David, I'm going to stay out of most of this, as it has nothing to do with me, but when you start telling Jason to check his jar of vinegar to see his flies, etc... Jason has absolutely no hand in what is happening at ZAU, he's just "another member", no ties to the staff, he doesn't have any special access, nothing. In regards to controllers "continuing to transfer out", Jason has been practically non-existent at ZAU since he stepped down. He's complying with our activity policy, and that's it, nothing above and beyond, so how is he making people transfer out, when he's all of 3 1/2 hours in the past 28 day period. If that's somehow forcing people out, please let us know so we can take action on said accusations. I see the transfer notices when someone leaves, and I just checked my records. In the above mentioned time period 5 members left ZAU. 3 of them did it on their own accord, whether it be picking the wrong ARTCC when initially joining, or leaving b/c they like a different departments training materials. The 4th left because he claims he got no response. We emailed him a welcome packet, it outlined the procedures to start training, he didn't make any attempt at training, or we didn't have enough slots for him, so he left. The last one stated that we didn't answer a forum post and that's why he left. I'll admit we didn't, but that's only because the post said "fine ignore me". Nothing we can do there. If you want to go back further than this period, someone's been holding a grudge for a damn long time. And looking back any further than what I just did can hardly be called continuing to see people leave due to Jason since Jason stepped down over 2 months ago.
Again, if there is some sort of matter that any member of our facility is doing that is driving controllers away, mine and Joe's inbox are always open.
Regards,
Dan
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Dan,
One of the controllers I was referring to left a post in a related topic here recently, and they transferred out of ZAU in November of last year, stating this as a reason in his post.
I never said anyone was forcing people out of ZAU, but I did imply that people would leave due to personality conflicts. I have seen more than one controller in my time elect to leave an ARTCC due to another controller - it doesn't have to be a staff member to make the culture at an ARTCC degrade to a point where fellow controllers simply leave due to the ambiance created by one discontented controller. That mechanism works with great efficacy.
The jar of vinegar and the flies is referring to the lack of success on this forum in trying to see success with the items he wants to see taken care of, and has nothing to do with ZAU or its controllers. Apparently my analogies are not being understood, but that's alright
I understand your viewpoint, Dan, and I do not mean to say that anything is in need of attention at ZAU in particular, as I have no way of knowing that about your ARTCC. My comments are strictly focused on the VATUSA forum, the topics being discussed here, and their effects on the VATUSA membership in general.
David,
Glad to hear we don't have a problem specific to ZAU. It's 3 A.M. for me, so I may not be functioning at full capacity in regards to analogies. I just wanted to ensure that nothing was currently the problem, as you said [!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]As we continue to hear reports of controllers having transferred out of your ARTCC in order to distance themselves from you personally[/quote] When I saw the continue part, I interpreted that to be "recent" I know recent is up to interpretation, and that's where I got my 28 days from. Now that we have our timeline worked out, it makes more sense to me.
Dan
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I find it odd and a little disheartening that a VATUSA staff member is ragging on a simple member for sharing his opinions right or wrong. Jason has not violated the code of conduct, trust me we would all know if he did because there are a list of supervisors and admins who would have at him if he did.
Jason was a staff member at one time, and I think anyone who truly knows him would agree that Jason's biggest pet peeve on this network is the idea that so much is expected of its "volunteers", and to a point they are expected to drop personal life issues at times to tend to VATSIM, which I say is slightly ridiculous. But I do remember a line which appears in almost every leadership "job" posting on this network which reads something like "If you are at all unsure about the time commitments involved in this position please don't apply".
Jason is not like the controller who signs up for VATSIM on Monday and resuests training everyday, particularly during times which instructors specifically say they are not available, then next Monday leaves a nasty post in the forum and transfers out saying in their transfer "The staff at XXX don't do anything and all should be fired" so on and so forth. Bryan has been in his position, and Bryan is not the only VATSIM staff member here, for like 11 months (don't quote me here I have better things to do than look this date up) and the only major change in VATNA is an extremely high turnover of VATUSA staff.
This is just my personal view as there may be many things that Byran has done that I don't see. All I see is the VATUSA staff asking several times for clarification or wording on things that didn't happen (yes I know they have now that is not the point). I don't think that VATUSA would allow me to have a policy published on my site because I want to use it sometime in the future but for now just ignore it
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Bruce, of course there is a lot going on behind the scenes that you don't see, and of course some that you do. The GRP was one thing that took a huge amount of time, for example. And of course, there is a lot going on in other Divisions. Take a read through the EC minutes some time and it will give a little insight into what is taking place elsewhere within the Region.
That said, I have yet to receive a single email from you detailing what it is you would like me to do. Want me to do something? Let me know. I'm always open to suggestions. Let me know what exactly it is that you would like me to accomplish for you right now.
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First to Bryan,
My response was not necessarily directed at you but I will share my opinion here and let you know that not a BOG minutes or EC minutes goes by without me reading it. I know exactly what the EC and BOG has publicly released as to their current workload. I will however say that to me personally I would clean up the mess in my own neighborhood before dealing with Global policies or chairmanships. I applaud you for your work on the GRP, and your appointment as chairman of the board but those NA policies have set around for a significant amount of time prior to your appointment and during, to this point, your whole appointment without being reviewed and clarified as you said you would. Your accountability goes to the members in your region per the COR, so I ask that you please take care of the problems that we are encountering here prior to spending the majority of your time on global issues.
I consider it a major issue that there has been so much senior staff (not even including ATMs, DATMs, and other local staff) turnover in the past 12 months. What is happening in the network to cause this? When I first joined the network it was difficult to try your hand at a VATUSA position now it seems like if you want a chance there is an opening, or 5, every 4 months or so. This is a concern to me as an ATM because as I create procedures, and develop training programs so on and so forth I don't know what the person who takes over in six months will hold me accountable to.
My only other real issue is the NA Policies which have been reviewed, thank you, and I have not had a chance to adequately peruse myself. Like I said in my original post I don't think that a local facility would be allowed to have an outdated and extremely restrictive policy and not hold up their end of the bargain, keeping it only because the want to do it at some point, for nearly a year. It was as simple as removing it, which you did. Thank you.
I would be glad to send this as an email if you rather have my concerns in that format just advise. I have, voiced my opinions to both you and the VATUSA staff in these and the staff forums, but I don't feel it necessary to beat a dead horse. I think that Jason had the 5-05 concern covered didn't feel it was necessary to tell you I was concerned about it also. I am sorry if you preferred email.
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Now to David,
My concern here is that it seems to me you are making a personal attack towards Jason Vodnansky, I'll use the name, who is a member of the ARTCC which I oversee. He is a member of the network, and is not in a staff position. I feel that you, who is essentially acting in the auspices of a VATUSA staff member should not be making attacks towards members. I would defend any member of vZID being attacked by a staff member. I am concerned that any staff member of VATSIM or VATUSA would participate in this kind of action against a general member. If he were a staff member and you wanted to call him to the table in the staff forums more power to you but I completely disagree with your methods here. As you said though we are allowed to disagree and I am fine with that. But I will stand up for what I believe is mistreatment to a controller in my ARTCC all day long.
As for him banging a hammer on a pipe in the building but not making any headway I would have to also disagree. I believe we have seen in the last 48 hours some VATNA policy changes. Though annoying, it did accomplish something. I am sure that Jason's constant hammering of policy 5-05 is finished now that the policy has been removed, as it would had it been revised or enforced.
Thanks
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Though annoying, it did accomplish something. I am sure that Jason's constant hammering of policy 5-05 is finished now that the policy has been removed, as it would had it been revised or enforced.
Thanks
Nope it hasn't finished... it simply has changed to further hammer the pipe (Bryan), it seems like no matter what Bryan does Jason finds a new hammer to use on the pipe?
http://forum.vatusa.us/index.php?showtopic=1856&hl= (http://forum.vatusa.us/index.php?showtopic=1856&hl=)
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Edited because Bryan's edit made it irrelevant
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Nope it hasn't finished... it simply has changed to further hammer the pipe (Bryan), it seems like no matter what Bryan does Jason finds a new hammer to use on the pipe?
http://forum.vatusa.us/index.php?showtopic=1856&hl= (http://forum.vatusa.us/index.php?showtopic=1856&hl=)
While it may not exactly be the most publicly pleasing way to go about it, Jason absolutely knows what he's talking about. He is the third member to join VATSIM and has held various staff positions before, he's been on VATSIM longer than anybody else on these forums. JV brings up really good points, and obviously the way he brings them up worked for 05-05, so why stop when more needs to be accomplished?
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Jason... He is the third member to join VATSIM and has held various staff positions before, he's been on VATSIM longer than anybody else on these forums.
He was in the initial batch of persons processed from SATCO to VATSIM , hence why i'm 138 (they are mostly in alpha). Not to slight his qualifications but to point out there are many who have been around as long as him if not longer.
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The next time that I say that one of your controllers is not fit to do their job, and poke fun at their lack of timeliness on a particular issue even though I know they are not being paid to do what they do, and then imply that they are not treating their constituents in a fair and equitable manner, and then accuse them of covering up alleged misuses of their powers, all in a public forum, then you can call it mistreatment of your controllers. Especially if I do it every day of the week. It is this type of behavior that I am calling to the table, and I feel that I am well within my limits as a VATUSA member, and a VATUSA staff member to do so if nobody else is going to say anything about it.
When we take staff positions we should expect members to disagree with decisions we make and criticize our actions. It has happened a few times recently to me, actually earlier today Jason criticized my supervision of one of my staff members just today. I'll take his criticism, use it to review the way that I conduct business and respond to him with my findings expeditiously as I do all complaints. Now if I publicly went after one of my controllers in our forums I am sure I would never hear the end of it. So I don't view criticism of a staff member the same as I do of a regular member.
Edited because I realized I don't know ow to use the correct tense