VATUSA Forums

General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Greg Miller on November 02, 2010, 07:30:28 PM

Title: VATSIM is only as good as the number of Controllers
Post by: Greg Miller on November 02, 2010, 07:30:28 PM
I'm a serious pilot, both as a real one and as a simulation one.

I have been flying via VATSIM US for about 8 months now, EVERY night after work, and find the ATC experience fun, informative, instructive and consider it a TRUE addiction.

The x737 (x-plane) is the A/C of choice and I fly IFR/ILS exclusively.  I purposely seek really lousy WX, so I go to the governments METAR page and find a bunch of lousy weather.  Then I find the appropriate ARTCC and hope to find someone controlling.

Now here is another consideration, lousy weather is no fun if you can't see it, so I try to find daylight.  The US is getting darker, so as an east coaster, I head to the western part of the US  @ plus 4 hrs.

So now the ISSUE.  I find, when I check out the ARTCC's, the following:  "No Controller On-Line"  Granted, I can sometimes find an ARTCC with controllers, but when I get there, they often go off-line too often and too soon.  Some nights I get lucky, others not.

I'm experienced enough that I can land without them, but it's more fun with them.  We guys and girls yack on 122.80 and help each other out, but that's not real world.

And that's the point... is VATSIM real world, and when and how long?

We pilots appreciate the great work of volunteer's doing this and wonder why there are not more of them.

Thanks for listening,

Greg
Title: VATSIM is only as good as the number of Controllers
Post by: Ryan Geckler on November 02, 2010, 10:34:09 PM
VATSIM isn't real world by any means. We try to simulate real procedures (atleast some of us ), but we realize that VATSIM has its limits, both on the pilot and controller knowledge and ability level.

Quite frankly, I think the reason that there isn't a lot of controllers is partially due to the politics involved as well as the intensity of the training.
Title: VATSIM is only as good as the number of Controllers
Post by: Harold Rutila on November 02, 2010, 11:03:42 PM
Greg,

It depends on when you're looking for ATC. If you're looking for ATC on Monday through Thursday at, ya know, anytime before 6 PM MDT or PDT, good luck. The best time to catch this side of the US is really anytime during a Friday, Saturday, or Sunday. Weekday nights are iffy due to the schedules of all controllers in the ARTCCs.

A major factor in this is our schedules in the real world that don't allow the controllers to spend any time on the network during the week. Also, a lot of ARTCC training takes place during the week, and then students and the instructional staff control mostly on the weekends.
Title: VATSIM is only as good as the number of Controllers
Post by: Scott DeWoody on November 02, 2010, 11:04:45 PM
Quote from: Ryan Geckler
VATSIM isn't real world by any means. We try to simulate real procedures (atleast some of us ), but we realize that VATSIM has its limits, both on the pilot and controller knowledge and ability level.

Quite frankly, I think the reason that there isn't a lot of controllers is partially due to the politics involved as well as the intensity of the training.


Ryan, exactly.  Anyone can fire up the Flight Simulator, and jump in and fly a 747 coast to coast, but to control, there's politics, and intensive training before one is allowed to control solo.
Title: VATSIM is only as good as the number of Controllers
Post by: Greg Miller on November 03, 2010, 05:44:05 PM
I understand the training needing to be rigorous, it emulates the real world, and we know how tough real ATC is.  I don't get the "politics" part of it, do you have to be a Democrat?  
Title: VATSIM is only as good as the number of Controllers
Post by: Greg Miller on November 03, 2010, 05:47:38 PM
Speaking of Controllers...

It would be awesome if "Pilots" had an opportunity to see what the controller sees.  Is there anyway to "look over their shoulders" ?
Title: VATSIM is only as good as the number of Controllers
Post by: Romano Lara on November 03, 2010, 07:45:44 PM
While flying? No.

Observing Yes, you can download the Controller Client from VATSIM.net - VRC is the commonly used client in the United States, you also have to download the ARTCC's sector file from their website in order to observe their sector.

Hope this helps.
Title: VATSIM is only as good as the number of Controllers
Post by: Nicholas Cavacini on November 03, 2010, 07:46:18 PM
Yes there is!

I personally use VRC to control (Virtual Radar Client) VRC (http://www.metacraft.com/VRC/)

To get the needed sector files you will need to visit the ARTCC's website.

You are probaly looking for ZLA or another west coast ARTCC though. ZLA would be a place to start. LAARTCC (http://www.laartcc.org/downloads.php)
Title: VATSIM is only as good as the number of Controllers
Post by: Kyle Ramsey on November 04, 2010, 01:15:52 PM
Quote from: Greg Miller
I understand the training needing to be rigorous, it emulates the real world, and we know how tough real ATC is.  I don't get the "politics" part of it, do you have to be a Democrat?  

I don't get it either.  Why does an S2/3 need to even know politics go on at all?   Seems the local staff could protect them form any of that; it is part of what leaders do, I think.

Glad you are enjoying VATSIM Greg, I encourage you to do more than look at a scope but maybe pick an area you would enjoy controlling and try it out.  Then you can report back and let us know about the politics n the training pipeline.
Title: VATSIM is only as good as the number of Controllers
Post by: Gary Millsaps on November 04, 2010, 07:22:51 PM
Wait...there's politics on VATSIM? Where?  

With all due respect Kyle, it sets a bad precedent to publish "baiting" posts in the forums and I would appreciate your refraining from doing so henceforth in the VATUSA forums. Everyone is well aware of the detrimental perception "politics" has across VATSIM and we do NOT need a BOG member encouraging folks to assume a prejudicial attitude in characterizing their experiences as "politics." It is difficult enough to manage, streamline and enhance the efficacy of the "training pipeline" without the unnecessary stigma of "politics" being iterated.

I urge any member to report to me or any member of VATUSA staff, or appropriate ARTCC staff about any issues they encounter with the units, operations or staff of the VATUSA Division but ask that members refrain from engaging in the kind of forum activity being promoted by Mr. Ramsey's post.

Thank you,
Title: VATSIM is only as good as the number of Controllers
Post by: Brian Pryor on November 05, 2010, 01:27:12 AM
Ok so don't report the politics Greg but do tell us your experience and bring any questions here, we are here to help after all!

Send the politics to Gary and his boss (VATNA1)  that's what they get paid to handle.
Title: VATSIM is only as good as the number of Controllers
Post by: Dan Leavitt on November 05, 2010, 06:37:15 PM
Quote from: Brian Pryor
Send the politics to Gary and his boss (VATNA1)  that's what they get paid to handle.

I KNEW there was a conspiracy...Gary, why haven't I seen MY paycheck yet???        

DL
Title: VATSIM is only as good as the number of Controllers
Post by: Greg Miller on November 06, 2010, 07:41:53 PM
Quote from: Romano Lara
While flying? No.

Observing Yes, you can download the Controller Client from VATSIM.net - VRC is the commonly used client in the United States, you also have to download the ARTCC's sector file from their website in order to observe their sector.

Hope this helps.

It does, thanks.  How do you get the ARTCC's sector file?
Title: VATSIM is only as good as the number of Controllers
Post by: Greg Miller on November 06, 2010, 07:47:53 PM
Quote from: Nicholas Cavacini
Yes there is!

I personally use VRC to control (Virtual Radar Client) VRC (http://www.metacraft.com/VRC/)

To get the needed sector files you will need to visit the ARTCC's website.

You are probaly looking for ZLA or another west coast ARTCC though. ZLA would be a place to start. LAARTCC (http://www.laartcc.org/downloads.php)

Got the VRC client, runs on Windows only... Bummer!
Title: VATSIM is only as good as the number of Controllers
Post by: Greg Miller on November 06, 2010, 07:51:48 PM
Quote from: Brian Pryor
Ok so don't report the politics Greg but do tell us your experience and bring any questions here, we are here to help after all!

Send the politics to Gary and his boss (VATNA1)  that's what they get paid to handle.

Love this forum, best I've been to since flying VATSIM.  I appreciate the sense of humor, but also the seriousness of it.
Title: VATSIM is only as good as the number of Controllers
Post by: Matthew Bartels on November 07, 2010, 09:46:17 AM
Quote from: Greg Miller
Got the VRC client, runs on Windows only... Bummer!

All of the radar clients, ASRC, VRC, EuroScope only work on windows. I do believe there is a Mac client in development. But for now your only option is to use bootcamp or some other program.
Title: VATSIM is only as good as the number of Controllers
Post by: Shehryar Ansari on November 09, 2010, 02:29:55 PM
Quote from: Greg Miller
I'm a serious pilot, both as a real one and as a simulation one.

I have been flying via VATSIM US for about 8 months now, EVERY night after work, and find the ATC experience fun, informative, instructive and consider it a TRUE addiction.

The x737 (x-plane) is the A/C of choice and I fly IFR/ILS exclusively.  I purposely seek really lousy WX, so I go to the governments METAR page and find a bunch of lousy weather.  Then I find the appropriate ARTCC and hope to find someone controlling.

Now here is another consideration, lousy weather is no fun if you can't see it, so I try to find daylight.  The US is getting darker, so as an east coaster, I head to the western part of the US  @ plus 4 hrs.

So now the ISSUE.  I find, when I check out the ARTCC's, the following:  "No Controller On-Line"  Granted, I can sometimes find an ARTCC with controllers, but when I get there, they often go off-line too often and too soon.  Some nights I get lucky, others not.

I'm experienced enough that I can land without them, but it's more fun with them.  We guys and girls yack on 122.80 and help each other out, but that's not real world.

And that's the point... is VATSIM real world, and when and how long?

We pilots appreciate the great work of volunteer's doing this and wonder why there are not more of them.

Thanks for listening,

Greg

I have posted on the VATSIM forums about this exact problem with the network. I have proposed having a centralised contoller time booking system whereby pilots can see what the approximate time slots the controllers are going to be working and at what facility. If this is diligently enforced we could be in an era of a step change in traffic levels and increased controller interest.

Shez
Title: VATSIM is only as good as the number of Controllers
Post by: Callum McLoughlin on November 11, 2010, 01:32:29 PM
A system that is currently being designed and built could but not necessarily will accomodate this - at least in the early stages. Kyle Ramsey has provided more information in the following thread and I suggest any interested parties have a read through the comments made here: http://forums.vatsim.net/viewtopic.php?f=6...813&start=0 (http://forums.vatsim.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=52813&start=0)

You're also welcome to send in suggestions to me (I'm the project manager, hello!) for review at: callum.mcloughlin@vatsim-uk.co.uk

Sincerely

A "listening" management team.