VATUSA Forums

General => The Control Room Floor => Topic started by: Shane VanHoven on April 23, 2018, 12:51:25 AM

Title: What's the busiest Sweatbox scenario you've ever seen/ran/built?!
Post by: Shane VanHoven on April 23, 2018, 12:51:25 AM
Out of sheer boredom this weekend, I decided to see if I couldn't match RW KORD's AAR in Sweatbox, and run it all without splitting up the positions. I'm not sure if I even came close to hitting 120ish arrivals an hour, but I only made it like 15 minutes into the scenario before my fingers started cramping up.

I'm curious if any other facilities have stupid busy scenarios just for the fun of it! Share a screenshot! Here's when I decided I couldn't type fast enough to keep up. At least nobody died!

(https://puu.sh/A8MpY/127b023cc4.png)
Title: Re: What's the busiest Sweatbox scenario you've ever seen/ran/built?!
Post by: Rick Rump on April 23, 2018, 07:03:20 AM
Someone is a masochist ;)
Your poor fingers!
Title: Re: What's the busiest Sweatbox scenario you've ever seen/ran/built?!
Post by: Sergio Lopez on April 23, 2018, 09:21:22 AM
An FNO....nothing beats an FNO  ;D
Title: Re: What's the busiest Sweatbox scenario you've ever seen/ran/built?!
Post by: Shane VanHoven on April 23, 2018, 01:06:08 PM
An FNO....nothing beats an FNO  ;D

I promise this scenario, if it went as long as an FNO, would beat the crap out of an FNO! ;P
Title: Re: What's the busiest Sweatbox scenario you've ever seen/ran/built?!
Post by: Toby Rice on April 23, 2018, 01:30:42 PM
I've made a lot of intense sweatbox sessions in my day. Here's one of the moderately difficult HCF Approach sessions in progress...

(https://forums.vatusa.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7908.0;attach=282;image)
Title: Re: What's the busiest Sweatbox scenario you've ever seen/ran/built?!
Post by: Daniel Everman on April 23, 2018, 03:10:49 PM
I've made a lot of intense sweatbox sessions in my day. Here's one of the moderately difficult HCF Approach sessions in progress...

Looks challenging! A bit too much scope clutter there for my tastes, though.
Title: Re: What's the busiest Sweatbox scenario you've ever seen/ran/built?!
Post by: Krikor Hajian on April 23, 2018, 03:56:12 PM
Probably not the busiest file in the BVA arsenal, but a challenging one for sure. It's a little hard to pick up what's going on without the history trails (since this was taken while it was paused), the two turboprops (POE and NLA) are on right bases for the ILS 22L, as the JFUND STAR stream to the west enters a downwind. All the guys to the south and southeast are on the ROBUC or OOSHN STARS for the ILS runway 27. The departure stream off 22R is also visible (I think this file has one departure every minute or so). The ceiling of A90 is 14000, so all the deps climbing up have already been handed off to the en route sectors, while JBU2479 is staying at 12000 en route to EWR.

(https://i.imgur.com/KufezWy.png)
Title: Re: What's the busiest Sweatbox scenario you've ever seen/ran/built?!
Post by: Toby Rice on April 23, 2018, 11:25:34 PM
I've made a lot of intense sweatbox sessions in my day. Here's one of the moderately difficult HCF Approach sessions in progress...

Looks challenging! A bit too much scope clutter there for my tastes, though.

If you’re referring to those excessive video maps, it is cluttered! I was running the session for a student and had all that crud loaded up for quick reference in SweatBox. I can’t stand a clogged-up scope!

Title: Re: What's the busiest Sweatbox scenario you've ever seen/ran/built?!
Post by: Brin Brody on April 25, 2018, 06:16:13 PM
I've made a lot of intense sweatbox sessions in my day. Here's one of the moderately difficult HCF Approach sessions in progress...

Looks challenging! A bit too much scope clutter there for my tastes, though.

If you’re referring to those excessive video maps, it is cluttered! I was running the session for a student and had all that crud loaded up for quick reference in SweatBox. I can’t stand a clogged-up scope!

Ctrl+A... Delete  :o

I've never had the patience to build that many aircraft into a file.  20 or so and I get tired of setting them up!  ;D
Title: Re: What's the busiest Sweatbox scenario you've ever seen/ran/built?!
Post by: Toby Rice on April 25, 2018, 06:27:25 PM

I've never had the patience to build that many aircraft into a file.  20 or so and I get tired of setting them up!  ;D

That's why I do them for you  ;D
Title: Re: What's the busiest Sweatbox scenario you've ever seen/ran/built?!
Post by: Shane VanHoven on July 15, 2018, 02:12:48 AM
Bringing back an old post cause I was messing around in the sim again tonight. Here's the death scenario for M98... Basically running finals to MSP at the max rate for about 25 minutes...combined. Normally we'd have final de-combined north and south, but for training purposes, and cause who doesn't like pain, we combined them. This scenario is basically ran at the very end of training just to see what the absolute breaking point of the student ends up being. I'm curious how other facilities in VATUSA progress students through radar training! Start them slow and work them up through busier problems? Break down each TRACON position one at a time? Let me know what you guys do!
Title: Re: What's the busiest Sweatbox scenario you've ever seen/ran/built?!
Post by: Matthew Kosmoski on July 15, 2018, 03:18:16 PM
I'll make the argument that death files are not training tools here:  They're toys.  They're abused to make students do things they're likely not ready nor capable of.

Don't get me wrong, they're fun once you're comfortable and learn some tricks of the trade, but subjecting new students to them seems to do more harm than good.
Title: Re: What's the busiest Sweatbox scenario you've ever seen/ran/built?!
Post by: Daniel Everman on July 15, 2018, 04:36:43 PM
I'll make the argument that death files are not training tools here:  They're toys.  They're abused to make students do things they're likely not ready nor capable of.

Don't get me wrong, they're fun once you're comfortable and learn some tricks of the trade, but subjecting new students to them seems to do more harm than good.

With respect, I think you missed this part of Shane's post:

This scenario is basically ran at the very end of training just to see what the absolute breaking point of the student ends up being.
Title: Re: What's the busiest Sweatbox scenario you've ever seen/ran/built?!
Post by: Dhruv Kalra on July 15, 2018, 07:00:41 PM
Don't get me wrong, they're fun once you're comfortable and learn some tricks of the trade, but subjecting new students to them seems to do more harm than good.

Good thing then that we don't subject new students to this.
Title: Re: What's the busiest Sweatbox scenario you've ever seen/ran/built?!
Post by: Shane VanHoven on July 15, 2018, 07:04:14 PM
I'll make the argument that death files are not training tools here:  They're toys.  They're abused to make students do things they're likely not ready nor capable of.

Don't get me wrong, they're fun once you're comfortable and learn some tricks of the trade, but subjecting new students to them seems to do more harm than good.

They're abused? You're always welcome to shadow a training session at ZMP to see how we use these scenarios. Don't assume things without any knowledge of the reality.

Thanks for your input though. I will talk to my superiors at ZMP to make sure that we don't abuse sweatbox anymore.
Title: Re: What's the busiest Sweatbox scenario you've ever seen/ran/built?!
Post by: Matthew Kosmoski on July 16, 2018, 11:09:22 AM
I'll make the argument that death files are not training tools here:  They're toys.  They're abused to make students do things they're likely not ready nor capable of.

Don't get me wrong, they're fun once you're comfortable and learn some tricks of the trade, but subjecting new students to them seems to do more harm than good.

With respect, I think you missed this part of Shane's post:

This scenario is basically ran at the very end of training just to see what the absolute breaking point of the student ends up being.

No, I very much caught that part.  I don't think it changes the situation at all.  What value does driving a student to a "breaking point" bring to the table?  As an instructor, we should be able to derive that very information without attempting to defile the student.  If you can't, you aren't spending enough time learning the student.
Title: Re: What's the busiest Sweatbox scenario you've ever seen/ran/built?!
Post by: Shane VanHoven on July 16, 2018, 01:01:37 PM
I'll make the argument that death files are not training tools here:  They're toys.  They're abused to make students do things they're likely not ready nor capable of.

Don't get me wrong, they're fun once you're comfortable and learn some tricks of the trade, but subjecting new students to them seems to do more harm than good.

With respect, I think you missed this part of Shane's post:

This scenario is basically ran at the very end of training just to see what the absolute breaking point of the student ends up being.

No, I very much caught that part.  I don't think it changes the situation at all.  What value does driving a student to a "breaking point" bring to the table?  As an instructor, we should be able to derive that very information without attempting to defile the student.  If you can't, you aren't spending enough time learning the student.

Maybe you should just see yourself out of the thread before you make even more of a fool of yourself. Every single one of the radar developmentals at our facility experience that scenario. They end up wanting more. Maybe this is because we actually take a great deal of pride in being the best we can be, and it shows when we host events and are actually capable of keeping the final contained inside the final controllers' airspace.

Just because you might be incapable or unwilling to be a better controller doesn't mean everyone else on the network can't.
Title: Re: What's the busiest Sweatbox scenario you've ever seen/ran/built?!
Post by: Dhruv Kalra on July 16, 2018, 01:18:51 PM
No, I very much caught that part.  I don't think it changes the situation at all.  What value does driving a student to a "breaking point" bring to the table?  As an instructor, we should be able to derive that very information without attempting to defile the student.  If you can't, you aren't spending enough time learning the student.

A previous ATM and division director was big into the concept of “continuous improvement”. I should probably clarify that we only run this level of traffic on them post-certification on M98 as an opportunity to develop proficiency with traffic levels typically only seen during events.

If we’re going to wring our hands about how to improve events, we can’t blame it all on the pilots. We all deal with the same talent pool when an event rolls around, and facility to facility often yields starkly different results in the overall flow of event traffic. With very few exceptions, most of the guys who go through our radar training and then work a busy event thank us for giving them the opportunity to train to that level prior to throwing them to the wolves during an FNO.
Title: Re: What's the busiest Sweatbox scenario you've ever seen/ran/built?!
Post by: Brandon Barrett on July 16, 2018, 02:22:25 PM
When I was a TA I had all my students going for major approach run through our "Death File" at least once or twice (twice to see or show improvement, not passing). It wasn't required but I used it as a learning guide to FNO level traffic. We also had a file called "fix the mess". That file contained targets that were not sequence, etc. I'm sure we all have been put in situations during an FNO where a controller in the next sector froze up, lost connection, rage quit or a combination of the three. I think its important to understand both concepts and be able to dig your sector out of a hole when the time comes.

The "death file", or whatever you want to call it, shouldn't be used to degrade the students and I'm sure ZMP and the rest of ARTCCs aren't using it as such. For those of you who are using it as such then you are clearly using it wrong. I always told my students "this isn't passable try your best and let's not forget the basic fundamentals you were taught just because you are slammed". Then Id run them through the file the next week and show them their improvements.

So at the end of the day, I think these files are great if used the correct way!

If we’re going to wring our hands about how to improve events, we can’t blame it all on the pilots.
Title: Re: What's the busiest Sweatbox scenario you've ever seen/ran/built?!
Post by: Ryan Geckler on July 16, 2018, 05:32:37 PM
And having such scenarios are a common real-world training tool. It isn't limited to being a VATSIMism.
Title: Re: What's the busiest Sweatbox scenario you've ever seen/ran/built?!
Post by: Reuben Prevost on August 09, 2018, 01:31:44 PM
Bringing back an old post cause I was messing around in the sim again tonight. Here's the death scenario for M98... Basically running finals to MSP at the max rate for about 25 minutes...combined. Normally we'd have final de-combined north and south, but for training purposes, and cause who doesn't like pain, we combined them. This scenario is basically ran at the very end of training just to see what the absolute breaking point of the student ends up being. I'm curious how other facilities in VATUSA progress students through radar training! Start them slow and work them up through busier problems? Break down each TRACON position one at a time? Let me know what you guys do!

Shane where would I find the Keyboard UI for Euroscope's Simulator?
Title: Re: What's the busiest Sweatbox scenario you've ever seen/ran/built?!
Post by: Shane VanHoven on August 16, 2018, 12:18:10 PM
Bringing back an old post cause I was messing around in the sim again tonight. Here's the death scenario for M98... Basically running finals to MSP at the max rate for about 25 minutes...combined. Normally we'd have final de-combined north and south, but for training purposes, and cause who doesn't like pain, we combined them. This scenario is basically ran at the very end of training just to see what the absolute breaking point of the student ends up being. I'm curious how other facilities in VATUSA progress students through radar training! Start them slow and work them up through busier problems? Break down each TRACON position one at a time? Let me know what you guys do!

Shane where would I find the Keyboard UI for Euroscope's Simulator?

I can't remember where I got it. It's called ESKey, maybe one of the other Euroscope users on here can point you in the right direction.
Title: Re: What's the busiest Sweatbox scenario you've ever seen/ran/built?!
Post by: Rick Rump on August 16, 2018, 01:50:27 PM
Reuben,

https://vzdc.org/downloads/ESKey%20v1.1.a1/ESKey.exe
https://vzdc.org/downloads/ESKey%20v1.1.a1/eskey.ini
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1XayIG6nv7vJ2HjSStdTvjhVEqaQqTgen96bh2fn-r94/edit?usp=sharing

Feel free to e-mail me with any questions about ESKey.

ESKey is freely available to download from ZDC, but we ask that you do not host it internally but feel free to link it. I have been trying to get a hold of the author to look into updates/letting others host it but he has been MIA for quite some time.
Title: Re: What's the busiest Sweatbox scenario you've ever seen/ran/built?!
Post by: Joshua Hooker on August 29, 2018, 09:23:13 AM
Ask about the D10 Final Trainer if you're ever around, it's a good one for sure.
Title: Re: What's the busiest Sweatbox scenario you've ever seen/ran/built?!
Post by: Owen Bliss on September 06, 2018, 09:00:32 AM
Here at Fort Worth we have a few tough files we like to run. The D10 Death is my personal favorite. 30 Aircraft from all arrival gates. What makes it even better is when you run the Euro-scope file, and they actually fly the RNAV arrival.  8)
Title: Re: What's the busiest Sweatbox scenario you've ever seen/ran/built?!
Post by: Mark Hubbert on September 06, 2018, 10:53:57 AM
Quote
A previous ATM and division director was big into the concept of “continuous improvement”. I should probably clarify that we only run this level of traffic on them post-certification on M98 as an opportunity to develop proficiency with traffic levels typically only seen during events.

If we’re going to wring our hands about how to improve events, we can’t blame it all on the pilots. We all deal with the same talent pool when an event rolls around, and facility to facility often yields starkly different results in the overall flow of event traffic. With very few exceptions, most of the guys who go through our radar training and then work a busy event thank us for giving them the opportunity to train to that level prior to throwing them to the wolves during an FNO.

Dhruv, point well taken.  I personally think the Death Sims can be a useful tool providing they are used properly and serve to enhance a student's ability, knowledge and experience as opposed to discouraging them.  I trust that is the case in most situations although I am certain that each ARTCC may do things a little different than the other.  I think one thing that sometimes gets lost is the fact that a person with a S3 rating is still a student even when they have achieved their major endorsement.  Most of us who have earned our C1's are still students especially for those who do not have the aviation background as part of their career. 

Good discussion guys.
Title: Re: What's the busiest Sweatbox scenario you've ever seen/ran/built?!
Post by: Robert Shearman Jr on September 08, 2018, 12:59:41 PM
I think one thing that sometimes gets lost is the fact that a person with a S3 rating is still a student even when they have achieved their major endorsement.  Most of us who have earned our C1's are still students especially for those who do not have the aviation background as part of their career.
In the field AND the hobby of aviation, whether pilots, controllers are both -- we are ALL still students, ALL the time.