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General => The Control Room Floor => Topic started by: Dhruv Kalra on December 29, 2018, 09:36:50 PM

Title: Visual Separation and You: Dos and Don'ts
Post by: Dhruv Kalra on December 29, 2018, 09:36:50 PM
Figured I'd jump in and throw another topic up for discussion here. The concept of how to solicit and apply visual separation. Unfortunately, throughout the process of flying under the control of a number of facilities as well as training controllers within my own, I've found that visual separation is a often misunderstood and misapplied concept. Key examples of this include, but are not limited to:


First, in order to establish some definitions, let's look at 7110.65 7-2-1, which states:

Quote from: JO 7110.65X 7-2-1 a. (Terminal) and b. (Enroute)
Visual separation may be used up to but not including FL 180

Yep. Can't use it in Class A airspace. Have to have lateral, vertical, and/or wake turbulence separation. no exceptions.

About the only exception to applying visual separation in the flight levels is to climb or descend through traffic below Class A airspace. For example, if you have a climbing aircraft with traffic above him at 17,000, an aircraft is allowed to climb into Class A airspace after visually separating from an aircraft no higher than 17,000 feet MSL. The reasoning is the instant before the aircraft breaks the plane into Class A airspace visual is no longer being applied and “separation after” will exist. An aircraft at FL 180 is also allowed to transition out of Class A airspace using visual separation if the visual maneuver will be a descent through the altitude of another aircraft at or below 17,000 feet MSL. The reasoning is that separation exists before the aircraft descends and visual is not applied until the descent starts. At that instant, the aircraft will also be out of Class A airspace.

It's important to note that if altimeters are below 29.92, meaning FL 180 is not an assignable altitude and FL 190 or above is usable, any visual separation maneuver out of FL 190 or above would begin in Class A airspace. This is not an allowable application, therefore nullifying transition out of Class A airspace. The reasoning is that FL 180 is still a discernible altitude just not an assignable altitude.


These two basically go hand in hand. Visual separation is meant to be used as a tool to expedite traffic which is already separated by another form of legal separation. If you're using it to try and save a deal, tough luck:

Quote from: JO 7110.65X 7-2-1
Visual separation may be applied when other approved separation is assured before and after the application of visual separation. To ensure that other separation will exist, consider aircraft performance, wake turbulence, closure rate, routes of flight, known weather conditions, and aircraft position. Weather conditions must allow the aircraft to remain within sight until other separation exists. Visual separation is not authorized when the lead aircraft is a super.

In a nutshell, when using visual separation to climb or descend through traffic, the aircraft must be positively separated (typically assigned vertically separated altitudes) prior to the use of visual separation. Separation after is then ensured by the assignment of altitudes to both aircraft that will ensure vertical separation, or by headings/courses that will diverge to minimum lateral separation.

You can also use it to waive wake turbulence separation when operating underneath or behind large/heavy aircraft (NOT Supers). When applying this on successive arrivals to the same runway, this effectively means that your "separation after" the application of visual is runway separation appropriate to the categories of aircraft involved.

Either way, it's a tool, not a crutch. Use it wisely and proactively. It goes hand in hand with ensuring positive separation of your traffic!


Remember that within Class B airspace, VFR aircraft are radar separated from all IFR and VFR aircraft by either target resolution/500 ft vertical (from aircraft weighing 19,000lb or less) or by 1.5 miles/500 feet vertical (from turbojet aircraft and aircraft weighing >19,000lb). In Class C airspace, VFR aircraft are radar separated from IFR aircraft only by target resolution/500 ft vertical.

You can use visual separation to your advantage in these airspace strata to expedite VFR traffic movement, but all too often, I hear it being applied in the pattern at Class D towers. The only time visual separation would apply within Class D airspace would be in a case when you're faced with a Small weight class aircraft (< 41,000lb) performing a touch/go or stop/go after a departing Small+, Large, or Heavy aircraft.

The reason for the use of visual separation in this case is that once the landing portion of the touch/go or stop/go is complete, the Small aircraft effectively transitions from being an arrival to being an intersection departure. We're required to have 3 minutes of wake turbulence separation for a Smal intersection departure following a Small+ or greater full length departure. Advising the Small aircraft to maintain visual separation with the departing larger aircraft is the "out" in this case. The phraseology for this is as follows:

Quote
N12345, report the departing B737 in sight.
Departing B737 in sight, N12345.
N12345, maintain visual separation with the departing B737, caution wake turbulence, runway 1, cleared (touch and go/stop and go/for the option)

We see so little pattern work on VATSIM that this one probably won't come up very often, but it's pretty much the only time you'd hear a controller at a Class D tower issue visual separation, which is why I bring it up.

Hopefully the explanations above give you guys some insight into how and when visual separation can be properly used to help run your traffic flow more efficiently while still maintaining legal separation throughout the process. There are a few other cases where visual separation can be used (successive departures being the most notable) that some of the other r/w guys who work in towers can probably shed some light upon, but these are the ones that I wanted to hit on based on my time spent flying, controlling, and training on the network.
Title: Re: Visual Separation and You: Dos and Don'ts
Post by: Matt Bromback on December 30, 2018, 07:33:46 AM
Hopefully the explanations above give you guys some insight into how and when visual separation can be properly used to help run your traffic flow more efficiently while still maintaining legal separation throughout the process. There are a few other cases where visual separation can be used (successive departures being the most notable) that some of the other r/w guys who work in towers can probably shed some light upon, but these are the ones that I wanted to hit on based on my time spent flying, controlling, and training on the network.

Good post Dhruv!

I was going to ask this specific question about successive departures. I have flown out of MSP many times where they ask "are you able to maintain visual separation with departing B737?" If pilot responds affirmative they provide visual separation in takeoff clearance (and from looking at TCAS we are in the air about 1.5 to 2.0nm behind aircraft) I am assuming they can only do it to aircraft not going to same departure route/gate. I found this in the 7110.65 but wondering if anyone can provide a little more insight as I am curious to this:

Quote
1. Tower-applied visual separation.
(a) Maintain communication with at least one
of the aircraft involved or ensure there is an ability to
communicate immediately with applicable military
aircraft as prescribed in Paragraph 3−9−3, Departure
Control Instructions, subpara a2.
(b) The tower visually observes the aircraft,
issues timely traffic advisories, and provides visual
separation between the aircraft.
(c) Issue control instructions as necessary to
ensure continued separation between the applicable
aircraft.
(d) Do not apply visual separation between
successive departures when departure routes and/or
aircraft performance preclude maintaining separation.
(e) The use of tower-applied visual separation
is not authorized when wake turbulence separation is
required

This is common practice at airports like MSP where they are effectively running single runway ops (arrivals/departures to same runway). Just wondering if divergent headings are required, or can same heading be issued and its up to Departure to separate??
Title: Re: Visual Separation and You: Dos and Don'ts
Post by: Toby Rice on December 30, 2018, 09:38:35 AM
Great post, Dhruv.

Good question, Matt. Correct me if I’m wrong, but tower-applied visual separation effectively removes (where allowed) all other separation requirements (except your 3000, 4500, 6000, and intersections, etc.) and simply leaves the tower entirely responsible to ensure the aircraft don’t get within an unsafe proximity.

For example, ATL in real life on a visual approach day will let the IFR to IFR guys on the visual approach compress all the way down to 2 NM of separation at the threshold (provided the 3 to 2.5 for Radar is ensured prior to Tower handoff) by using tower-applied separation to make sure the guys don’t touch. They don’t go usually go less than 2 miles because by the time the lead aircraft exits the runway, the trailing aircraft is pretty darn close to the threshold, which if crossed would be a separation bust.
Title: Re: Visual Separation and You: Dos and Don'ts
Post by: Matt Bromback on December 30, 2018, 11:37:48 AM
Great post, Dhruv.

Good question, Matt. Correct me if I’m wrong, but tower-applied visual separation effectively removes (where allowed) all other separation requirements (except your 3000, 4500, 6000, and intersections, etc.) and simply leaves the tower entirely responsible to ensure the aircraft don’t get within an unsafe proximity.

For example, ATL in real life on a visual approach day will let the IFR to IFR guys on the visual approach compress all the way down to 2 NM of separation at the threshold (provided the 3 to 2.5 for Radar is ensured prior to Tower handoff) by using tower-applied separation to make sure the guys don’t touch. They don’t go usually go less than 2 miles because by the time the lead aircraft exits the runway, the trailing aircraft is pretty darn close to the threshold, which if crossed would be a separation bust.

Toby,

I believe your correct in terms of arrival traffic, basically its the whole one aircraft on a runway at a time rule. I have been as close as 1 to 1.5nm from threshold and traffic is still on the runway. That is when you usually hear on the radio "expedite exit traffic short final" :) I have been sent around before particularly when heavy aircraft don't clear the tail over the hold short line, that is always fun :)

Title: Re: Visual Separation and You: Dos and Don'ts
Post by: Shane VanHoven on December 30, 2018, 10:26:33 PM
Great post, Dhruv.

Good question, Matt. Correct me if I’m wrong, but tower-applied visual separation effectively removes (where allowed) all other separation requirements (except your 3000, 4500, 6000, and intersections, etc.) and simply leaves the tower entirely responsible to ensure the aircraft don’t get within an unsafe proximity.

Almost. It’s important to note that you cannot use tower applied visual separation if some sort of wake turbulence standard is required. Example. If you have a small departing behind a heavy, you cannot have less than 5 miles by applying tower visual. You must always have the wake sep, unless you use plane to plane visual.
Title: Re: Visual Separation and You: Dos and Don'ts
Post by: Shane VanHoven on December 30, 2018, 10:41:58 PM
Hopefully the explanations above give you guys some insight into how and when visual separation can be properly used to help run your traffic flow more efficiently while still maintaining legal separation throughout the process. There are a few other cases where visual separation can be used (successive departures being the most notable) that some of the other r/w guys who work in towers can probably shed some light upon, but these are the ones that I wanted to hit on based on my time spent flying, controlling, and training on the network.

Good post Dhruv!

I was going to ask this specific question about successive departures. I have flown out of MSP many times where they ask "are you able to maintain visual separation with departing B737?" If pilot responds affirmative they provide visual separation in takeoff clearance (and from looking at TCAS we are in the air about 1.5 to 2.0nm behind aircraft) I am assuming they can only do it to aircraft not going to same departure route/gate. I found this in the 7110.65 but wondering if anyone can provide a little more insight as I am curious to this:

Quote
1. Tower-applied visual separation.
(a) Maintain communication with at least one
of the aircraft involved or ensure there is an ability to
communicate immediately with applicable military
aircraft as prescribed in Paragraph 3−9−3, Departure
Control Instructions, subpara a2.
(b) The tower visually observes the aircraft,
issues timely traffic advisories, and provides visual
separation between the aircraft.
(c) Issue control instructions as necessary to
ensure continued separation between the applicable
aircraft.
(d) Do not apply visual separation between
successive departures when departure routes and/or
aircraft performance preclude maintaining separation.
(e) The use of tower-applied visual separation
is not authorized when wake turbulence separation is
required

This is common practice at airports like MSP where they are effectively running single runway ops (arrivals/departures to same runway). Just wondering if divergent headings are required, or can same heading be issued and its up to Departure to separate??

We do a similar thing at my little tower in Southern California. All of our departures fly the same heading for our 2 main SIDs. One goes north and the other goes east. If we have two successive departures that go out the same gate, we’ll give the tracon standard separation because they don’t have a ton of room to pry them apart. But if we have two departures with one going north and the other going east, we’ll launch them 6000 and airborne because all the tracon has to do is turn them on course and they’ll diverge.

This is why ground controls job is more than just taxiing airplanes. At big airports with a lot of airplanes and SIDs, you can make or break the operation by putting 5 of the same SIDs in a row instead of fanning them out.

But to answer your question, you need diverging headings OR visual. You don’t need to use both (That’s what we call over-separating)!
Title: Re: Visual Separation and You: Dos and Don'ts
Post by: Frank Louis Miller on January 06, 2019, 12:48:06 PM
A question for the experts:   I’ve heard on occasion in real-world, tower ask if a second departure has visual on a rolling first departure (typically same wake class).  Once acknowledge, the second departure is given “maintain vis sep from that a/c, cleared for takeoff”).  I’ve always assumed that is done where they don’t have diverging headings for the two a/c but expect they will turn-out in different directions once with Departure, so the vis sep allows a quicker launch for second a/c.  From this thread, I’m not clear whether this is a correct interpretation of what is happening, though.   Maybe the first a/c was VFR.

Thoughts?

Frank
Title: Re: Visual Separation and You: Dos and Don'ts
Post by: Brad Littlejohn on January 07, 2019, 11:59:59 AM
Figured I'd jump in and throw another topic up for discussion here. The concept of how to solicit and apply visual separation. Unfortunately, throughout the process of flying under the control of a number of facilities as well as training controllers within my own, I've found that visual separation is a often misunderstood and misapplied concept. Key examples of this include, but are not limited to:

  • Attempting to apply visual separation in the flight levels

First, in order to establish some definitions, let's look at 7110.65 7-2-1, which states:

Quote from: JO 7110.65X 7-2-1 a. (Terminal) and b. (Enroute)
Visual separation may be used up to but not including FL 180

Yep. Can't use it in Class A airspace. Have to have lateral, vertical, and/or wake turbulence separation. no exceptions.


Great post here, Dhruv, and one that definitely needs to be either pinned here or taught as a refresher to each individual sector (not that the instructors at those sectors don't do a great job; but just as a reminder of what we at the TRACON and En Route facilities can use as a tool).

However, while I know this answer, I would love to see how you would extend this to any VFR-on-top operations, where they can operate at FL+500ft. I know that for the most, the same lateral/horizontal/wake separation standards would still apply, but the +500ft throws that off a lot of people's games when it comes to Class A airspace.

For example. Say you have 3 aircraft that are laterally separated but geographically converging at a given point. One is VFR at 17500, one descending through FL180, and one VFR on top at 18500. Here you would be applying different methods of separation, including visual. How would you think that should be handled?

BL.
Title: Re: Visual Separation and You: Dos and Don'ts
Post by: Rick Rump on January 07, 2019, 01:07:40 PM
one that definitely needs to be either pinned here or taught as a refresher to each individual sector

Oh the list :)
These sorts of topics are going to get merged into CBTs I am hoping.
Title: Re: Visual Separation and You: Dos and Don'ts
Post by: Ryan Geckler on January 07, 2019, 02:02:02 PM
.

For example. Say you have 3 aircraft that are laterally separated but geographically converging at a given point. One is VFR at 17500, one descending through FL180, and one VFR on top at 18500. Here you would be applying different methods of separation, including visual. How would you think that should be handled?

BL.

You can't be VFR on top in Class A airspace.

In the case of the other two, there is no requirement to separate the two planes, but you would stop the IFR aircraft above until clear or they have the 17500 guy in sight.
Title: Re: Visual Separation and You: Dos and Don'ts
Post by: Matthew Kosmoski on January 07, 2019, 03:21:05 PM
You can't be VFR on top in Class A airspace.

Why not?

91.179 (IFR cruising altitudes) permits for VFR on top above 18k, referencing requirements of 91.159 (VFR cruising altitudes), which actually permits for VFR in Class A, just requiring pilots to maintain altitude as assigned.  I've heard this regularly being done with gliders, but that's really the only time I've heard it actually used.

Quote
91.176(a) In controlled airspace. Each person operating an aircraft under IFR in level cruising flight in controlled airspace shall maintain the altitude or flight level assigned that aircraft by ATC. However, if the ATC clearance assigns “VFR conditions on-top,” that person shall maintain an altitude or flight level as prescribed by §91.159.

Quote
91.159(b) When operating above 18,000 feet MSL, maintain the altitude or flight level assigned by ATC.

While the AIM 4-4-7 says ATC won't authorize it, the law permits for it, and we know what authority the AIM actually has.
Title: Re: Visual Separation and You: Dos and Don'ts
Post by: Ryan Geckler on January 07, 2019, 04:59:20 PM
Let's take a look at 7110.65, shall we?

Quote
7−1−1. CLASS A AIRSPACE RESTRICTIONS

Do not apply visual separation or issue VFR or
“VFR-on-top” clearances in Class A airspace.


Gliders usually operate in accordance with a LOA and the facility/agency will block airspace (i.e ATCAA).
Title: Re: Visual Separation and You: Dos and Don'ts
Post by: Shane VanHoven on January 07, 2019, 07:39:05 PM
...and we know what authority the AIM actually has.

From one of the first few pages in the AIM:

"This publication, while not regulatory, provides information which reflects examples of operating techniques and procedures which may be requirements in other federal publications or regulations. It is made available solely to assist pilots in executing their responsibilities required by other publications."

No authority. The AIM has no authority.
Title: Re: Visual Separation and You: Dos and Don'ts
Post by: Shane VanHoven on January 07, 2019, 07:41:17 PM
I’ve always assumed that is done where they don’t have diverging headings for the two a/c but expect they will turn-out in different directions once with Departure, so the vis sep allows a quicker launch for second a/c.  From this thread, I’m not clear whether this is a correct interpretation of what is happening, though.   Maybe the first a/c was VFR.

Thoughts?

Frank

You are correct. This is how we handle it at work. You don't need visual separation if you'll have 15 degrees divergence within 1 mile after departure. It's either/or. Using visual AND a diverging heading is over separating.
Title: Re: Visual Separation and You: Dos and Don'ts
Post by: Shane VanHoven on January 07, 2019, 07:42:39 PM
I was really hoping that this was obvious, but according to my experiences this evening online, it isn't and I will add this to Dhruv's original post:

Visual separation is only for aircraft in the AIR. You do not use visual separation on the ground.

That is all.
Title: Re: Visual Separation and You: Dos and Don'ts
Post by: Mark Hubbert on January 07, 2019, 09:06:32 PM
Quote
Oh the list :)
These sorts of topics are going to get merged into CBTs I am hoping

Maybe Dhruv, Ryan and Chris would be willing to do another online class on this topic?  Instead of a CBT.  Would be nice if Shane would also do a class.   
Title: Re: Visual Separation and You: Dos and Don'ts
Post by: Matthew Kosmoski on January 08, 2019, 12:03:15 AM
...and we know what authority the AIM actually has.

From one of the first few pages in the AIM:

"This publication, while not regulatory, provides information which reflects examples of operating techniques and procedures which may be requirements in other federal publications or regulations. It is made available solely to assist pilots in executing their responsibilities required by other publications."

No authority. The AIM has no authority.

That's my point ;-)
Title: Re: Visual Separation and You: Dos and Don'ts
Post by: Matthew Kosmoski on January 08, 2019, 12:06:50 AM
Let's take a look at 7110.65, shall we?

Quote
7−1−1. CLASS A AIRSPACE RESTRICTIONS

Do not apply visual separation or issue VFR or
“VFR-on-top” clearances in Class A airspace.


Gliders usually operate in accordance with a LOA and the facility/agency will block airspace (i.e ATCAA).

Sure, the JO can say that, but the JO isn't law nor does it require the rulemaking process.  It seems like an interesting case where the law says its okay, but the FAA is telling you not to do it anyways.  I can see why it'd be frowned upon operationally, but I'm curious to understand why the JO takes that position more than "because it does."
Title: Re: Visual Separation and You: Dos and Don'ts
Post by: Dhruv Kalra on January 08, 2019, 02:47:35 AM
Sure, the JO can say that, but the JO isn't law nor does it require the rulemaking process.  It seems like an interesting case where the law says its okay, but the FAA is telling you not to do it anyways.  I can see why it'd be frowned upon operationally, but I'm curious to understand why the JO takes that position more than "because it does."

If I can lose my certifications or career for not following it, I’m pretty sure it’s law.

Also, you can be OTP all day long above FL180...as long as you’re also above FL600 and therefore in E airspace, which is where 91.159 would apply in reference to a flight level.
Title: Re: Visual Separation and You: Dos and Don'ts
Post by: Mark Jeffreys on January 09, 2019, 01:47:19 PM

Sure, the JO can say that, but the JO isn't law nor does it require the rulemaking process.  It seems like an interesting case where the law says its okay, but the FAA is telling you not to do it anyways.  I can see why it'd be frowned upon operationally, but I'm curious to understand why the JO takes that position more than "because it does."

91.135 Operations in Class A Airspace.

Quote
Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, each person operating an aircraft in Class A airspace must conduct that operation under instrument flight rules (IFR) and in compliance with the following:

(a) Clearance. Operations may be conducted only under an ATC clearance received prior to entering the airspace.

(b) Communications. Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, each aircraft operating in Class A airspace must be equipped with a two-way radio capable of communicating with ATC on a frequency assigned by ATC. Each pilot must maintain two-way radio communications with ATC while operating in Class A airspace.

(c) Equipment requirements. Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft within Class A airspace unless that aircraft is equipped with the applicable equipment specified in §91.215, and after January 1, 2020, §91.225.

(d) ATC authorizations. An operator may deviate from any provision of this section under the provisions of an ATC authorization issued by the ATC facility having jurisdiction of the airspace concerned. In the case of an inoperative transponder, ATC may immediately approve an operation within a Class A airspace area allowing flight to continue, if desired, to the airport of ultimate destination, including any intermediate stops, or to proceed to a place where suitable repairs can be made, or both. Requests for deviation from any provision of this section must be submitted in writing, at least 4 days before the proposed operation. ATC may authorize a deviation on a continuing basis or for an individual flight.
Title: Re: Visual Separation and You: Dos and Don'ts
Post by: Ryan Geckler on January 09, 2019, 04:03:31 PM
VFR-on-top is an IFR operation... how else would you get through the layer?
Title: Re: Visual Separation and You: Dos and Don'ts
Post by: Don Desfosse on January 09, 2019, 04:05:32 PM
VFR-on-top is an IFR operation... how else would you get through the layer?
This is VATSIM... Can't you just spawn there?   ;) ;) ;)
Title: Re: Visual Separation and You: Dos and Don'ts
Post by: Ryan Geckler on January 09, 2019, 04:08:00 PM
VFR-on-top is an IFR operation... how else would you get through the layer?
This is VATSIM... Can't you just spawn there?   ;) ;) ;)

It's one of those VATSIM golden rules... be nice, don't spawn on a runway, don't spawn above a cloud layer VFR... :D
Title: Re: Visual Separation and You: Dos and Don'ts
Post by: Matthew Kramer on January 09, 2019, 04:26:01 PM
VFR on top is a hybrid. You need an IFR clearance to get through the IMC and then maintain visual flight rules while you are conducting the operation. It has already been covered here that you can't get a VFR-on-top clearance in Class A, despite being IFR. Further information can be found in AIM 5-5-13.
Title: Re: Visual Separation and You: Dos and Don'ts
Post by: Matthew Kosmoski on January 09, 2019, 07:09:31 PM
VFR-on-top is an IFR operation... how else would you get through the layer?

Bingo.  Nothing in 91.135 would prohibit VFR-on-top.

VFR in class A in general would require an LOA as previously discussed (eg for gliders), unless they were IFR and given a block and area to play in...  But VFR-on-top, despite the name, isn't a VFR operation.  VFR-on-top is referenced in only one section only of 14 CFR 91 -- 91.179, IFR cruising altitude or flight level.

I'm not sure what the fuss is about.  It's one of the clearer parts of the law.
Title: Re: Visual Separation and You: Dos and Don'ts
Post by: Matthew Kosmoski on January 09, 2019, 07:10:47 PM
VFR on top is a hybrid. You need an IFR clearance to get through the IMC and then maintain visual flight rules while you are conducting the operation. It has already been covered here that you can't get a VFR-on-top clearance in Class A, despite being IFR. Further information can be found in AIM 5-5-13.

It's defined as an IFR operation. The AIM isn't regulation or law, and this is one of the many cases where it oversteps and says something that isn't substantiated by law or reg.

If it was a VFR operation, you wouldn't be constricted to your route as you are with VFR-on-top.  You're thinking about climbing and cancelling, as VFR-over-the-top, which is a VFR operation.

VFR-on-top only gives you altitude discretion, subject to VFR wx mins.  Otherwise, to cite your beloved AIM:

5-5-13(a)2: (c) Comply with instrument flight rules that are applicable to this flight; i.e., minimum IFR altitudes, position reporting, radio communications, course to be flown, adherence to ATC clearance, etc.
Title: Re: Visual Separation and You: Dos and Don'ts
Post by: Matthew Kramer on January 09, 2019, 07:19:47 PM
VFR on top is a hybrid. You need an IFR clearance to get through the IMC and then maintain visual flight rules while you are conducting the operation. It has already been covered here that you can't get a VFR-on-top clearance in Class A, despite being IFR. Further information can be found in AIM 5-5-13.

It's defined as an IFR operation. The AIM isn't regulation or law, and this is one of the many cases where it oversteps and says something that isn't substantiated by law or reg.

If it was a VFR operation, you wouldn't be constricted to your route as you are with VFR-on-top.  You're thinking about climbing and cancelling, as VFR-over-the-top, which is a VFR operation.

VFR-on-top only gives you altitude discretion, subject to VFR wx mins.  Otherwise, to cite your beloved AIM:

5-5-13(a)2: (c) Comply with instrument flight rules that are applicable to this flight; i.e., minimum IFR altitudes, position reporting, radio communications, course to be flown, adherence to ATC clearance, etc.

As previously mentioned in this thread, the 7110 also prohibits VFR-on-top in Class A airspace.

Quote
7−1−1. CLASS A AIRSPACE
RESTRICTIONS
Do not apply visual separation or issue VFR or
“VFR-on-top” clearances in Class A airspace.

It might not be specifically prohibited by regulation, but you need clearance into Class A airspace, and outside the exceptions talked about (LOA, etc.) you're not going to get this clearance. This topic deserves its own thread if we continue to discuss it.
Title: Re: Visual Separation and You: Dos and Don'ts
Post by: Matthew Kosmoski on January 09, 2019, 08:38:28 PM
VFR on top is a hybrid. You need an IFR clearance to get through the IMC and then maintain visual flight rules while you are conducting the operation. It has already been covered here that you can't get a VFR-on-top clearance in Class A, despite being IFR. Further information can be found in AIM 5-5-13.

It's defined as an IFR operation. The AIM isn't regulation or law, and this is one of the many cases where it oversteps and says something that isn't substantiated by law or reg.

If it was a VFR operation, you wouldn't be constricted to your route as you are with VFR-on-top.  You're thinking about climbing and cancelling, as VFR-over-the-top, which is a VFR operation.

VFR-on-top only gives you altitude discretion, subject to VFR wx mins.  Otherwise, to cite your beloved AIM:

5-5-13(a)2: (c) Comply with instrument flight rules that are applicable to this flight; i.e., minimum IFR altitudes, position reporting, radio communications, course to be flown, adherence to ATC clearance, etc.

As previously mentioned in this thread, the 7110 also prohibits VFR-on-top in Class A airspace.

Quote
7−1−1. CLASS A AIRSPACE
RESTRICTIONS
Do not apply visual separation or issue VFR or
“VFR-on-top” clearances in Class A airspace.

It might not be specifically prohibited by regulation, but you need clearance into Class A airspace, and outside the exceptions talked about (LOA, etc.) you're not going to get this clearance. This topic deserves its own thread if we continue to discuss it.

I don't think anybody is arguing the need for the clearance.  My point is that the only thing that is actually law permits for it.
Title: Re: Visual Separation and You: Dos and Don'ts
Post by: Dhruv Kalra on January 09, 2019, 09:29:53 PM
I don't think anybody is arguing the need for the clearance.  My point is that the only thing that is actually law permits for it.

The law permits for lots of stupid things (like helicopter Special VFR in 0/0). Can we get back on topic?
Title: Re: Visual Separation and You: Dos and Don'ts
Post by: Mark Jeffreys on January 09, 2019, 10:04:11 PM
VFR-on-top is using both IFR and VFR rules. The reg that I quoted says that you must be operating under IFR, not conducting an IFR operation (such as VFR-on-top).

Since you're being picky, you must follow VFR weather minimums while VFR-on-top. Where can I find the VFR weather minimums for class A? There aren't any because you cannot operate VFR in class A airspace.

Anyways, why the heck does it even matter whether it's "legal" or not. You won't get it.
Title: Re: Visual Separation and You: Dos and Don'ts
Post by: Brandon Rodgers on January 09, 2019, 10:33:31 PM
It is possible to have a VFR-on-top or VFR clearance and be in the flight levels as the above rules have stated.  But again, it is not allowed in Class A airspace.  So where can I fly both VFR or VFR-on-top and be outside of Class A airspace?  Hawaii.

§71.33   Class A airspace areas.
(a) That airspace of the United States, including that airspace overlying the waters within 12 nautical miles of the coast of the 48 contiguous States, from 18,000 feet MSL to and including FL600 excluding the states of Alaska and Hawaii.
Title: Re: Visual Separation and You: Dos and Don'ts
Post by: Toby Rice on January 10, 2019, 04:30:19 PM
It is possible to have a VFR-on-top or VFR clearance and be in the flight levels as the above rules have stated.  But again, it is not allowed in Class A airspace.  So where can I fly both VFR or VFR-on-top and be outside of Class A airspace?  Hawaii.

§71.33   Class A airspace areas.
(a) That airspace of the United States, including that airspace overlying the waters within 12 nautical miles of the coast of the 48 contiguous States, from 18,000 feet MSL to and including FL600 excluding the states of Alaska and Hawaii.

Yup.