On the topic of accountability & maturity

[Dan Leavitt]

As referenced in this topic   http://forum.vatusa.us/index.php?showtopic=1850

Bryan,

You say [!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]Jason, as I said, I am reviewing the policies and changes will be made in due time. There is a lot going on at the USA level that I now need to take care of as well, and to be perfectly honest, making sure everything is running properly and smoothly at the USA level is FAR more important than a review of policies THAT HAVE BEEN AROUND WITHOUT COMPLAINT FOR YEARS. I'm not sure why that answer isn't good enough for you, nor do I really care. If I tell you it's going to get done, it's going to get done.[/quote]

By acknowledging you are going to review them, it means you have a problem with the policies. If you didn't have an issue with them, what need is there to review them? Jason is saying it's been 4 weeks. Correct me if my math is wrong, but in reality, it's been 11 months since you took over. I'm not going to claim I know everything about what's going on, but when you have a policy in place that is hindering a facilities advancement because they want to be in compliance with these policies that you have procrastinated on "reviewing", there is an inherent problem with time management skills. I just took the past 38 minutes to review the 4 (four) VATNA policies, and they are so unclear and confusing, that it needs to become something you need to devote some attention to.

Now I know someone is going to say "well instead of complaining, how about you do something for your facility"   Well guess what...I would, except I can't do ANYTHING because of these policies.

Bryan, it's time to step up to the plate. It is not difficult to review and perhaps edit a policy or 2...hell perhaps all 4. When I became dATM of ZAU and Joe Clark became ATM of ZAU. The first thing we did is review the policies that were in place (illegally because of 0505), and discussed what we needed to do. And it would amaze you what we've done in the 47 days since we both took position...We've reviewed the policies, discussed plans of action, included in our discussions ALL of the staff at the facility AND all of the members at the facility, and what they want to see. We've asked what they want to see, and we have a great start going, typed out, reviewed, edited, and ready to go...but guess what...since we want to be in compliance of all VATUSA, VATNA, and VATSIM policies...one of which is 505, which you claim you're reviewing...we CAN'T DO ANYTHING to advance the facility and give it direction with what we have ready to go.

I don't know if this will open your's and other's eyes, seeing as to how it's not just Jason saying this, but what do I know...from my understanding  [!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]"One man can make a difference."[/quote]

So Bryan, why don't you be that one man?  Make the difference, or let someone in who can make the difference.



Now onto the second part about maturity.

Chris, you talk about Jason's maturity. Do you not remember being the one at ZAU who was being the immature one with all of your snide comments and remarks trying to egg on Jason??? Need we re-hash the Jason's dead mom conversation you decided to start    You keep bringing up the same thing about why you left ZAU, that's your choice, you're in your new home, enjoy it, but for god's sake, stop re-hashing and sounding like a broken record...which is exactly what you're telling Jason he's dong.


It's late and I'm tired, so I'm going to bed...I look forward to the responses here when I wake up.



EDIT: FOR SPELLING AND GRAMMATICAL CORRECTION

[Dan Leavitt]

And I'll just add this in a new post, god forbid I be accused of changing something after the fact.  Chris, how mature of you to just change Jason's words to fit yours...in a quote none the less....very mature.

[Bryan Wollenberg]

Dan,

How in the world is 0505 preventing you from advancing your facility?  That's almost comical.  The only thing that is going to change when 0505 goes away or is edited is that your local rules won't have to be posted on the VATNA website.  Do you think that somehow your accountability to follow rules is just going to go away and you can do whatever you like?  I'm very confused about these "limitations" and look forward to an explanation.

[David Jedrejcic]

Bryan,

I believe that Dan is referring to the following phrase within 0505:

"...policies written or established outside of this process are invalid and in no way enforceable."

Perhaps I'm wrong, but that's my interpretation.

[Dan Leavitt]

Dan,

How in the world is 0505 preventing you from advancing your facility?  That's almost comical.  The only thing that is going to change when 0505 goes away or is edited is that your local rules won't have to be posted on the VATNA website.  Do you think that somehow your accountability to follow rules is just going to go away and you can do whatever you like?  I'm very confused about these "limitations" and look forward to an explanation.

Glad I could provide the humor for the day    

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]PURPOSE: To better manage local rules established within the North America Region, the following process has been put in place. This approval process is mandatory and local rules / policies written or established outside of this process are invalid
and in no way enforceable

LOCAL RULES APPROVAL PROCESS: All ARTCCs and FIRs within the VATSIM North America Region must comply with the following process. Any local rule / policy that is not posted on the region website is considered to be invalid.
1. Submit your rule or policy proposal to the Division Director (DD).
2. The rule / policy will be checked against the VATSIM CoR and VATSIM Code of Conduct (CoC) for compliance by the DD, if it is in compliance, the DD will advise that it is being processed for implementation. If it is not in compliance, changes will be made until the local rule is satisfactory, or the matter will be rejected and a reason for the rejection given.
3. The DD will forward the local rule to the Regional Director (RD) for a final check and written authorization prior to its implementation.
4. After receiving RD authorization, the rule / policy will be ready for release at the local level and a copy of the rule / policy will be kept on file and posted on the region website for future reference. The local agency may also post the rule / policy, as approved and unchanged, on their local website.[/quote]

From what I understand in 0505, it states that any policy enforced at any facility in VATNA has to be up on the VATNA website. Honestly, I don't see any policies other than the 4 VATNA regional policies. So am I to take it that all local policies are valid or invalid until posted on your site? I can only speak for ZAU, but I BELIEVE that all facilities have at least 1 policy, whether it be an SOP, a runway policy, some sort of inter-facility policy. I don't see any of those on the VATNA website. Does that mean they haven't been run through you and the previous DD? Does that mean you just haven't put them up yet? All I'm looking for is a concrete answer...I don't want to get into the debate of what's "official or not" which is a whole different can of worms. I just want an answer. Can we make policy and enact it if it's not on your VATNA site? If so, wonderful, problem solved. If not, what's our process to get this done?

If we go back to the days when Craig Merriman was RD, he was asked this exact question about the same policy, and here's his response.

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]The policy does not address ATC coordination, such as LOAs between centers or procedural matters. It only addresses rules such as transfers, visiting controller policy, position restrictions and other rules related to how members are treated.[/quote] That response was found here: http://forums.vatsim.net/viewtopic.php?f=1...mp;hilit=VATNA1

Now I know that was a while ago, but since you say this policy has been in effect since his time, is that still to be taken as "official"? Again, if so, problem solved, if not, what are we supposed to take as official?

Thanks for the quick response,

Dan

[Bryan Wollenberg]

That could be it Dave.  However, I'm guessing that ZAU and others would have been held back by 0505 during Craig's tenure and well before.  I don't get how they are being "prevented from advancing" now all of the sudden.  This of course not considering the fact where I told the staff at some point to temporarily disregard 0505 and continue with business as usual, just as they have done for the past 3+ years or more than the policy has been in effect.  But oh well.

Except a revision of policies by morning.

[Dan Leavitt]

That could be it Dave.  However, I'm guessing that ZAU and others would have been held back by 0505 during Craig's tenure and well before.  I don't get how they are being "prevented from advancing" now all of the sudden.  This of course not considering the fact where I told the staff at some point to temporarily disregard 0505 and continue with business as usual, just as they have done for the past 3+ years or more than the policy has been in effect.  But oh well.

Except a revision of policies by morning.

Bryan,

Don't know if you posted this before seeing my above post, but yes, Dave hit the nail on the head. And I also referenced this going back to Craig's tenure. As for the disregard of the policy, that was not communicated somewhere down the line, as I was never informed of it, whether it be from the current ATM, former ATM/dATM, or even before them. Either way, if we are to disregard 0505, wonderful, problem solved.

Thanks,

Dan

[Bryan Wollenberg]

Dan,

To answer your questions and give a slight background on my position with 0505, originally, I was planning on enforcing 0505 to the letter, including having them posted on the VATNA website.  A review of local policies apparently had NEVER been conducted prior to my taking office, and some are so out-of-line with reality that I felt a review was needed.  I still feel a review is needed, and make no mistake, a review will be conducted.  However, after listening to the staff views on the policy, I'm not really sure why the local rules would need to be published on the VATNA site.  

As to where the policy is going, you can count on 0505 being removed within the next few hours.  Your local rules are "official and enforceable" by virtue of NA policy 0105.  I don't believe we need a 0505 to make your local rules enforceable.

[EDIT]  Dang it, we did it again Dan.  Yes, I replied (both times now) without seeing your subsequent posts.

[Dan Leavitt]

Wonderful, glad we have closure now. Hopefully by the time 0505 is down ZAU will have a few local's up.

Thanks for the quick responses here, and hopefully this will settle any "previous" issues.

Dan

[Bryan Wollenberg]

And thanks for patience Dan (and everyone else).

[Bryan Wollenberg]

Alrighty guys,

There has been an update of policies.  0101 has been updated, 0305 has been updated, and 0505 has been removed.  I will explain specific changes to the staff members in a separate thread.  Thanks again for your patience.

[Brian Pryor]

Thank you Bryan for taking the time to do this. Perhaps it will allow us as an organization to move past the issue that has been repeatedly brought up.

[Chris McGee]

You're right Dan. I'm not any better posting those comments directed toward Jason. I want to apologize for my immaturity. Glad to see we have solved the issue Jason brought up.

[Gary Millsaps]

Dan,

A review of local policies apparently had NEVER been conducted prior to my taking office, and some are so out-of-line with reality that I felt a review was needed.

I take issue with this statement. A constant state of policy review was in effect during my tenure. The difference being it was accomplished dynamically as the facility needs, staff personnel and upper level requirements were changing.

A personal view of this if I may...I've found that what one person views as extreme or "out-of-line" may very well be interpreted by anyone else in an entirely different light. One of the benefits of holding a management level position is the authority and responsibility to ensure policy and regulation within one's area of authority are the best response to the needs of the organization overall or the unit(s) for which it is intended. I caution that personal views of any policy (or lack thereof) be thoroughly vetted against this standard.

Regards,

[Bryan Wollenberg]

Gary,

I should have been more clear.  I know very well that you were reviewing policies.  What I intended was that a review was never conducted in accordance with 0505, which is why the page was perpetually blank.  As far as I'm aware, no NA1 ever specifically requested the local rules for addition to the site.