What we need to be discussing

[Thomas King]

IMO, if you want to strive for as much realism as possible, that's great! Just don't be a prick about it.

Interesting the way you put that

[Cameron Negrete]

I agree with what a few people have stated here.  The problem for the lack of pilots isn't atc.  Its pilot client, which is out of vatusa's hands, unless vatusa were to assemble some programmers to fix the problem.  Luke i 100% agree with you.  Sme with AJ Heiser.

[Manuel Manigault]

Stating this doesn't fix the problem. The statement above is the problem. (What I mean is not that you stating it is the problem, but instead that you have described the issue.) Whether you want to open source the client development or take it all in house (as IVAO appears to have done), either would probably be better than the situation VATSIM has now. It combines the worst of closed source development (lack of collaboration) with the worst of open source development (individual developers who come and go). I'm not going to beat the open source drum again here, but something needs to change.

Right now VATSIM has exactly one pilot client under active development, and it doesn't work with the most popular simulator. The two for FS are in "perpetual beta", one is officially abandoned and the other requires one to "read the please install sticky references by the read me sticky referenced by announcement in the forum which says that features that don't work aren't part of the procedure and you didn't need them anyways". What a mess.

We need to fix the issue you describe above, not accept it. If you don't want to open source stuff, then get the license transferred to VATSIM and create an in-house technology department. But either way, do something different than you do now.



Does it matter? I looked through the introduction to the PRC and within about 30 seconds my eyes glazed over. Then I noticed that the basic stuff had "introduction to Conflict Resolution" and was quoting dreary bits from the CofC, CofR and CofWhatever and it became comical. The best way to encourage people to participate on VATSIM is to get them to fly, with others, and have a great time. The introduction section of PRC should have the bare minimum to get them there, and the next step before the advanced stuff is for them to actually connect and fly a flight. You're not allowed to read further until you actually fly!

Right now as it stands, irresponsible people won't read it anyways. Responsible folks spend days or weeks learning it all, worried they'll do something wrong and aren't getting exposed to the network.



That's the problem with every younger generation.  What's really cool about progress is that increasingly, we can give it to people sooner, simpler and with fewer restrictions.



Great point. Reality is a continuum. We shall never meet the expectations of everyone. We need to recognize that we provide reality in a libertarian fashion; you are free to develop your own higher level of realism provided it does not negatively affect others.



It's great that this is being discussed.

Luke

Luke, I agree with your first statement 100%. The pilot clients' interaction with FSX is the major problem.  It appears to me that traffic levels were fine until FSX came out.  The pilot clients initially could not work with FSX.  As a result, those that wanted to use FSX could not fly on VATSIM and traffic levels dropped.  Later, FSInn could be used (I believe in beta format), but I do not remember ever seeing a finished product of either pilot client for FSX.  For new pilots, the installation of the pilot client and/or maintenance of the pilot client could seem very intimidating.

[Andrew Doubleday]

I think someone in here said it best, at some point people made VATSIM a stepping stone to their career, and that's when we went down hill.  No offense to those CTI students here, but (and I've seen this in the real world also) until you work real live traffic, you have no place to act like you know what you're doing and do it better than everyone else.  In the last year, we've washed out 5 CTI grads, and our traffic is down 50%.  Sure they may know the book word for word, but the don't have the capacity or common sense to think ahead.

Jeremy, I've been pondering your thoughts for about a day and I want to respond to this in a respectful manner being a CTI student myself...

Although I can somewhat understand how you could come to this conclusion, I don't think it's just or fair to blame the problems entirely on us at all. You appear to be classifying us, along with a few others here, as a bunch of ego-driven, short-sighted kids simply trying to dominate the network... and this, in turn, is driving away everyone from the network. I feel this is very deductive reasoning possibly caused by "a few" bad apples in the bunch...

I don't know exactly what experiences you've had with CTI students on VATSIM by any means and maybe it is possible that you have had the unfortunate experience of dealing with some foolish CTI students. I can certainly say that I have as well, but not all of us are this way by any means, Jeremy. You appear to be generalizing many of us into one category though which is definitely not the case. No disrespect at all, but you do not know many of us (and there are many CTI students scattered around this network). I can speak for those I know, for sure, that they are actually extremely "sound" and "well-rounded" individuals that know and understand the limitations and differences between VATSIM and the real world quite well, maybe even more so than you or others give us credit for...

I've had the fortunate experience of being able to meet and learn from many real world controllers I've met on the network. Not only have they taught me a lot of about controlling in general, but they've been kind enough to allow me (and others like me) the opportunity to tour facilities for many shifts to learn about the work environment (and in some cases, have the opportunity to do "hands on" work than just simply observing) and see, first hand, the differences between VATSIM, CTI, and the real world (and all three are very different from each other).

Make no mistake, I know for a fact that you are certainly correct, Jeremy, that many CTI students have absolutely no idea what they are getting into and end up falling flat on their faces in the real world (C90 has also washed out tons of CTI students under the same circumstances). I don't think that VATSIM is entirely responsible for that, however. That's individual foolishness that has caused this among many. As a lab assistant at my university, I've personally seen VATSIM controllers come into the labs with massive egos, thinking that they do know it all, and it's always been extremely foolish and unfortunate for them. However, I always did my best to try and set them straight while teaching in the labs, because at least I could respect the differences between VATSIM, CTI, and the real world.

I agree with AJ Heiser's comments as well. It's OK to be realistic about your controlling so long as you are respectful to others at the same time. My personal experiences on VATSIM have shown me that many look up to those of us with a lot of knowledge and passion towards the career (both on either the pilot side or controller side) and they want to learn as much as possible from us and others with real world experience. I think it's very unfair to classify us as problematic individuals causing all of the problems here. I feel like I'm doing something good for this community sharing what I know with others, and teaching them to be respectful about the differences in the real world. If it encourages someone to get into the career, that's amazing then and VATSIM should be proud of that fact for sparking an aviation interest with someone.

Hopefully any of the bad apples you may have dealt with, Jeremy, will read this and think twice... I truthfully do believe that many of us CTI students will end up being very successful in the career, however. I'm not trying to toot my own horn with this post, by any means either. I just would like people to know that there are many of us out there with a firm understanding and respect for the differences between VATSIM and the real world (although many of us do not have any real world experience yet). I Ask anyone to read this to not throw us all into a bad category for VATSIM...



Sincere Regards,

AJ

[Jeremy Bucholz]

Jeremy, I've been pondering your thoughts for about a day and I want to respond to this in a respectful manner being a CTI student myself...

Although I can somewhat understand how you could come to this conclusion, I don't think it's just or fair to blame the problems entirely on us at all. You appear to be classifying us, along with a few others here, as a bunch of ego-driven, short-sighted kids simply trying to dominate the network... and this, in turn, is driving away everyone from the network. I feel this is very deductive reasoning possibly caused by "a few" bad apples in the bunch...

I don't know exactly what experiences you've had with CTI students on VATSIM by any means and maybe it is possible that you have had the unfortunate experience of dealing with some foolish CTI students. I can certainly say that I have as well, but not all of us are this way by any means, Jeremy. You appear to be generalizing many of us into one category though which is definitely not the case. No disrespect at all, but you do not know many of us (and there are many CTI students scattered around this network). I can speak for those I know, for sure, that they are actually extremely "sound" and "well-rounded" individuals that know and understand the limitations and differences between VATSIM and the real world quite well, maybe even more so than you or others give us credit for...

I've had the fortunate experience of being able to meet and learn from many real world controllers I've met on the network. Not only have they taught me a lot of about controlling in general, but they've been kind enough to allow me (and others like me) the opportunity to tour facilities for many shifts to learn about the work environment (and in some cases, have the opportunity to do "hands on" work than just simply observing) and see, first hand, the differences between VATSIM, CTI, and the real world (and all three are very different from each other).

Make no mistake, I know for a fact that you are certainly correct, Jeremy, that many CTI students have absolutely no idea what they are getting into and end up falling flat on their faces in the real world (C90 has also washed out tons of CTI students under the same circumstances). I don't think that VATSIM is entirely responsible for that, however. That's individual foolishness that has caused this among many. As a lab assistant at my university, I've personally seen VATSIM controllers come into the labs with massive egos, thinking that they do know it all, and it's always been extremely foolish and unfortunate for them. However, I always did my best to try and set them straight while teaching in the labs, because at least I could respect the differences between VATSIM, CTI, and the real world.

I agree with AJ Heiser's comments as well. It's OK to be realistic about your controlling so long as you are respectful to others at the same time. My personal experiences on VATSIM have shown me that many look up to those of us with a lot of knowledge and passion towards the career (both on either the pilot side or controller side) and they want to learn as much as possible from us and others with real world experience. I think it's very unfair to classify us as problematic individuals causing all of the problems here. I feel like I'm doing something good for this community sharing what I know with others, and teaching them to be respectful about the differences in the real world. If it encourages someone to get into the career, that's amazing then and VATSIM should be proud of that fact for sparking an aviation interest with someone.

Hopefully any of the bad apples you may have dealt with, Jeremy, will read this and think twice... I truthfully do believe that many of us CTI students will end up being very successful in the career, however. I'm not trying to toot my own horn with this post, by any means either. I just would like people to know that there are many of us out there with a firm understanding and respect for the differences between VATSIM and the real world (although many of us do not have any real world experience yet). I Ask anyone to read this to not throw us all into a bad category for VATSIM...



Sincere Regards,

AJ

AJ,

It was not my intent to have my post read as catigorizing certain individuals and posting the blame, I apologize if you took it that way.  I was only attempting to use an example.  Yes, you are correct there are many CTI students on here who are humble and do their best to provide realistic service with a freindly feel.  But as you said there are also those bad apples out there who do carry themselves higher than everyone else on the network.  In the real world we do have to act like that because pilots will attempt to take over your freq, some people bring this attitude to the network.

I have invited and taken many people from VATSIM up to my facility and let them get the sense of how things really work.  Many are surprised to find that even in a tower setting, it's not even close to VATSIM and I continue to offer out an invitation to anyone who wants to experience that.  Point is, one way that we can attract more pilots is to have that freindly atmosphere that some people (not just CTI students) have taken away from the network.

[Andrew Doubleday]

Point is, one way that we can attract more pilots is to have that freindly atmosphere that some people (not just CTI students) have taken away from the network.

I'm with you on that... I'll be the first to admit I've had my fair share of learning experiences with "customer service" on here too. It took me time to learn about that. I think the attitude issues are more prevalent amongst the younger controllers on the network than anything.

[Julian Hoffman]

Jeff,

Then why do we need ratings at all? Why don't we just let whomever wants to get on whatever position they want?

Personally, it would drive me away.  If I can't fly under competent control, I might as well fly offline.

But again, I don't think we have solid evidence that constant staffing by "fun-having" (or even "no-fun serious") controllers would dramatically increase pilot count.

I think controller staffing is a part of the equation, but not the only one.

I second this.  I think there's a really fine line we have to walk between being too restrictive, and being too lax, and from what I've observed, we do this fairly well.  As for ratings being too hard to obtain, as in instructor in an ARTCC which is NOT the most stringent of them all, I've found there are a couple types of students. We have those that have dedicated themselves at least SOMEWHAT, and these students, who show at least some interest and willingness to learn, with rare exception, make it to the highest levels.  But we also have those who feel that, since this is a hobby, they should immediately be an S3, C1, etc., and have had people transfer out because, after failing a test with a score of less than 50-60%, felt they were getting a "raw deal".

Now from my pilot side, logging 40+ hours a month on average minimum, I can't tell you how incredibly annoying it is to contact a center, and realize they are absolutely overwhelmed, and have very little idea of what they're supposed to be doing.  All of our ARTCCs try their best to train controllers to meet all competencies, and all have failings with individuals at one point or another, that's the nature of the beast.  But lowering our expectations?  Honestly, if as a pilot, I didn't want competent controllers, I WOULD go fly on the Zone, or IVAO (:-D), but I do want these things, as a pilot.  Our pilots are our end-users, and they want the best experience they can get, which doesn't result from us lowering our standards and having people incapable of handling traffic.

[Arthur Heiser]

Now from my pilot side, logging 40+ hours a month on average minimum, I can't tell you how incredibly annoying it is to contact a center, and realize they are absolutely overwhelmed, and have very little idea of what they're supposed to be doing.  All of our ARTCCs try their best to train controllers to meet all competencies, and all have failings with individuals at one point or another, that's the nature of the beast.  But lowering our expectations?  Honestly, if as a pilot, I didn't want competent controllers, I WOULD go fly on the Zone, or IVAO (:-D), but I do want these things, as a pilot.  Our pilots are our end-users, and they want the best experience they can get, which doesn't result from us lowering our standards and having people incapable of handling traffic.

I completely agree with this. Can't we say that probably more than 95% of pilots would rather have ATC than no ATC? What's the point of flying without ATC (besides flying in group flights and the like)? I mean, isn't that the whole point of VATSIM? To get the full experience?

[Scott DeWoody]

I completely agree with this. Can't we say that probably more than 95% of pilots would rather have ATC than no ATC? What's the point of flying without ATC (besides flying in group flights and the like)? I mean, isn't that the whole point of VATSIM? To get the full experience?

I think it goes pretty much without saying that the majority of pilots would prefer ATC.  It's the quality of ATC that sometimes pushes pilots away, but that's why the ARTCC's have the pilot feedback, so if you feel you received sub-standard service, take the time to give the ATM,DATM,TA feedback on how their controllers are doing and then they can work on correcting those things that are sub-standard.

As far as the handing out of certifications, I for one went through the training, did the OTS's failed and retook written exams, that's how you learn.  There are some out there though, that want to be spoon fed everything, don't want to look things up, don't want to study, and expect to get the next level of cert, either globally or locally.  How do you fix that??  Talk to their parents I guess, because you can try on here til you're blue in the face and you won't get through to some... it's called work ethic, and I guess if you've never worked, it's hard to have that ethic.

Please note that I said some...

[Arthur Heiser]

As far as the handing out of certifications, I for one went through the training, did the OTS's failed and retook written exams, that's how you learn.  There are some out there though, that want to be spoon fed everything, don't want to look things up, don't want to study, and expect to get the next level of cert, either globally or locally.  How do you fix that??  Talk to their parents I guess, because you can try on here til you're blue in the face and you won't get through to some... it's called work ethic, and I guess if you've never worked, it's hard to have that ethic.

Please note that I said some...

This looks to be a side-effect of today's society, the "no winners, no losers" mentality. Today's 13 year old's can't see the difference between "right" and "privilege", and it's looks to be taking it's toll on the next generation of virtual controllers.

2 solutions: Try and get it through their skulls that things aren't going to be spoon fed to them their whole lives. Or, we can work around spoon feeding to make it look like we are, but in reality they are truly earning their cert. I don't have the slightest idea how to do that, but it is an option.

[Julian Hoffman]

As far as the handing out of certifications, I for one went through the training, did the OTS's failed and retook written exams, that's how you learn.  There are some out there though, that want to be spoon fed everything, don't want to look things up, don't want to study, and expect to get the next level of cert, either globally or locally.  How do you fix that??  Talk to their parents I guess, because you can try on here til you're blue in the face and you won't get through to some... it's called work ethic, and I guess if you've never worked, it's hard to have that ethic.

I also agree with this.  Going back to my previously mentioned students who have transferred out of our ARTCC, when you go in to look at them, they repeat the pattern of behavior in wherever they transfer to.  I agree with the thought that a certain ARTCC might not be the best fit for you, and training programs and requirements definitely do vary still, even with the implementation of GRP2.0, but there needs to be some understanding on the part of students that a basic level of competency and dedication still applies.

[Luke Kolin]

I think the most reliable sign that you're old is when you start despairing about the next generation.

Cheers!

Luke

[Arthur Heiser]

I think the most reliable sign that you're old is when you start despairing about the next generation.

Cheers!

Luke

I'm 16 and I can understand the differences between these things! Really shows you how much difference a couple years makes.

[Julian Hoffman]

I think the most reliable sign that you're old is when you start despairing about the next generation.

Cheers!

Luke

Old?  I'm 24.  Lol.

[Luke Kolin]

Old?  I'm 24.  Lol.

You're only as young as you feel.

Cheers!

Luke