"SWA1321 With you@FL330"

Roger Curtiss

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"SWA1321 With you@FL330"
« on: February 22, 2016, 07:31:13 PM »
How many times, especially as a CTR controller and even more so during a large event such as FNO, have you received such a message from a pop-up target?

I worked FNO last week in an H_CTR position and it was a real problem.  I am guessing it occurs with some regularity at every major event and it may be a matter of inadequate pilot knowledge.

I honestly do not know if: a) this is as big a problem as I believe it to be or b)if there is an easy way to remedy it
but I offer the following as a suggestion-

Perhaps it would be feasible to include with the event posting a line in the description reminding pilots that handoffs require checking in only with callsign and altitude but that first transmissions when airborne to a controller at other times necessitate callsign, altitude AND position.

Re: "SWA1321 With you@FL330"
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2016, 08:27:26 PM »
It's been like that since I started training on VATSIM in about 2009... at least on the US side of the pond.  About 20% of the time, pilots do not report their altitude either just a "XYZ Center, ABC123 with you."

On the flip side, about 15% of the time, real world, pilots don't check in with me on Departure with an altitude, either.  And I'd say about 10-20% checking in the first time don't report position (when not handed off) and/or altitude.

Ryan Parry

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Re: "SWA1321 With you@FL330"
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2016, 10:23:35 PM »
I really don't see it as being an issue to be honest. The only time I have an issue with people not saying their location is when they are requesting clearance and I am working a hand full of airports at once. Even then, a simple "say location" or "where are you at" solves the problem in less than 30 seconds.

If they are airborne, VRC makes is extremely easy to find an aircraft. I realize the procedure is different in the real world, but aircraft also aren't coming from "unicom" at FL330 either.  ;)

Johnathan Ellis

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Re: "SWA1321 With you@FL330"
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2016, 06:05:45 AM »
I don't really see it as an issue either. Regardless of where they are, we need to issue a code etc. So all I do is type the callsign, A Select, F9 A Select, and go from there

Rick Rump

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Re: "SWA1321 With you@FL330"
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2016, 06:37:25 AM »
Its okay, when I give my position I rarely ever get radar contacted off of it. Sure I will take a new code before you say "radar contact as reported" (or whatever along those lines you choose to use).
I hate "with you", how about "Good evening XYZ Center, CALLSIGN, FL330"?
Though lately I have been hearing more and more of people giving positions when already being tracked.

Don Desfosse

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Re: "SWA1321 With you@FL330"
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2016, 07:23:02 AM »
Interesting --- a similar thread going on in the VATSIM forums. 

I hate "with you", how about "Good evening XYZ Center, CALLSIGN, FL330"?
Sometimes lately, when the evil streak is present, I have been using a page out of Keith Smith's playbook, and replying "And also with you" (old time Catholics should "get" that... ;) )

But, more appropriately, the initial contact call should sound more like, "XYZ Center, (Good morning/afternoon/evening/day,) CALLSIGN, POSITION, FLXXX"

From my post on VATSIM a couple of minutes ago:
Quote from: Don Desfosse 1035677
In "the US Book" (AIM in this case, ref. AIM 5-3-1b(2)) that:
- When coming from a radar environment, initial contact should include altitude information (ref. AIM 5-3-1b(2)(a)), and
- When coming from a nonradar environment (which is certainly the case if coming from uncontrolled airspace), initial contact should include BOTH position and altitude information (ref. AIM 5-3-1b(2)(b))


The only time I have an issue with people not saying their location is when they are requesting clearance and I am working a hand full of airports at once. Even then, a simple "say location" or "where are you at" solves the problem in less than 30 seconds.
When the same evil streak was present, I used to sometimes say, "CALLSIGN, XXX Center, I control 165,000 square miles of airspace that contains 283 airports.  Which one of those are you at?"    ;D

Luckily as I get older and wiser and mellower, that mean streak comes out less and less....  ;D

You are right, it's not a big deal, but it is nice when it's done right, both from the pilot and controller side.  I know I appreciate accuracy, when I'm operating on either side of the scope.

Roger Curtiss

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Re: "SWA1321 With you@FL330"
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2016, 12:54:24 PM »
Granted, this is not a problem most of the time-which is why it never prompted me to comment on it before, however, I was mainly referring to large events...it most definitely was a problem briefly for me last Friday as I was trying to make things orderly and I thought this sort of challenge might be prevalent.

Don Desfosse

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Re: "SWA1321 With you@FL330"
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2016, 01:11:07 PM »
Good point.  I had forgotten back to the OP where there was an event in play.  Of course, ARTCCs should be working with their neighbors to ensure staffing when there are events.  But I also know that doesn't always happen.  So it should indeed be a formal part of pilot training to ensure proper procedures.  I remember working a CTP a few years ago with my adjacent ARTCC unstaffed, and remember getting on average one pilot checking in every 10 seconds or so for at least a few hours coming from an uncontrolled environment.  When they reported correctly, it went much smoother.  Not so much for the other 90%.... [shudder!]

Roger Curtiss

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Re: "SWA1321 With you@FL330"
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2016, 04:27:29 PM »
I have posted a topic in Pilot Talk about this issue and I will be taking it up with the PTD as some good suggestions have been presented to try to reduce if not eliminate this communication area.

Josh Glottmann

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Re: "SWA1321 With you@FL330"
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2016, 05:22:58 PM »
If I can also add, when you are on the ground, you most certainly want to give the airport you are at, with sufficient detail as well.
I too often here simply, "Miami Center, ABC123, good night". Once I told a pilot "say location" -- response: "ramp"  ::)
Providing no further information requires the controller to go back and have to figure out what you want, where you are, etc.

Initial call should more or less be: "XXX CTR, ABC123, at AIRPORT (additionally position on airport), (INFO _, WITH WEATHER, etc.), REQUEST"
That lets the controller know who you are, where you are, what you want, and what you already know... which ultimately means they can potentially get a clearance for you sooner and free up the frequency for other transmissions.