VATNA Website Question

[David Jedrejcic]

I find it odd and a little disheartening that a VATUSA staff member is ragging on a simple member for sharing his opinions right or wrong.  Jason has not violated the code of conduct, trust me we would all know if he did because there are a list of supervisors and admins who would have at him if he did.
...

Bruce, I would certainly characterize your post as a "sharing of opinion," and I respect that.  I would not characterize the member that I was "ragging on" as simply sharing his opinion.  I've already outlined, in great detail above, how I would characterize this behavior, and I don't feel I need to repeat it again.  So I disagree with your assessment, but that's perfectly fine.  And I know there are no violations of the CoC here, nor did I accuse there being any.  All I'm pointing out is that there is someone constantly banging a hammer on a steel pipe in the building, and nothing is being built, so I am kindly asking for the hammer to stop banging, as it is accomplishing nothing.  Yet another analogy, I know  

[Bruce Clingan]

First to Bryan,

My response was not necessarily directed at you but I will share my opinion here and let you know that not a BOG minutes or EC minutes goes by without me reading it.  I know exactly what the EC and BOG has publicly released as to their current workload.  I will however say that to me personally I would clean up the mess in my own neighborhood before dealing with Global policies or chairmanships.  I applaud you for your work on the GRP, and your appointment as chairman of the board but those NA policies have set around for a significant amount of time prior to your appointment and during, to this point, your whole appointment without being reviewed and clarified as you said you would.  Your accountability goes to the members in your region per the COR, so I ask that you please take care of the problems that we are encountering here prior to spending the majority of your time on global issues.  

I consider it a major issue that there has been so much senior staff (not even including ATMs, DATMs, and other local staff) turnover in the past 12 months.  What is happening in the network to cause this?  When I first joined the network it was difficult to try your hand at a VATUSA position now it seems like if you want a chance there is an opening, or 5, every 4 months or so.  This is a concern to me as an ATM because as I create procedures, and develop training programs so on and so forth I don't know what the person who takes over in six months will hold me accountable to.

My only other real issue is the NA Policies which have been reviewed, thank you, and I have not had a chance to adequately peruse myself.  Like I said in my original post I don't think that a local facility would be allowed to have an outdated and extremely restrictive policy and not hold up their end of the bargain, keeping it only because the want to do it at some point, for nearly a year.  It was as simple as removing it, which you did.  Thank you.  

I would be glad to send this as an email if you rather have my concerns in that format just advise.  I have, voiced my opinions to both you and the VATUSA staff in these and the staff forums, but I don't feel it necessary to beat a dead horse.  I think that Jason had the 5-05 concern covered didn't feel it was necessary to tell you I was concerned about it also.   I am sorry if you preferred email.

[Bruce Clingan]

Now to David,

My concern here is that it seems to me you are making a personal attack towards Jason Vodnansky, I'll use the name, who is a member of the ARTCC which I oversee.  He is a member of the network, and is not in a staff position.  I feel that you, who is essentially acting in the auspices of a VATUSA staff member should not be making attacks towards members.  I would defend any member of vZID being attacked by a staff member.  I am concerned that any staff member of VATSIM or VATUSA would participate in this kind of action against a general member.  If he were a staff member and you wanted to call him to the table in the staff forums more power to you but I completely disagree with your methods here.  As you said though we are allowed to disagree and I am fine with that.  But I will stand up for what I believe is mistreatment to a controller in my ARTCC all day long.  

As for him banging a hammer on a pipe in the building but not making any headway I would have to also disagree.  I believe we have seen in the last 48 hours some VATNA policy changes.  Though annoying, it did accomplish something.  I am sure that Jason's constant hammering of policy 5-05 is finished now that  the policy has been removed, as it would had it been revised or enforced.

Thanks

[Brian Pryor]

Though annoying, it did accomplish something.  I am sure that Jason's constant hammering of policy 5-05 is finished now that  the policy has been removed, as it would had it been revised or enforced.

Thanks

Nope it hasn't finished... it simply has changed to further hammer the pipe (Bryan), it seems like no matter what Bryan does Jason finds a new hammer to use on the pipe?

http://forum.vatusa.us/index.php?showtopic=1856&hl=

[Bruce Clingan]

Edited because Bryan's edit made it irrelevant

[Nicholas Taylor]

Nope it hasn't finished... it simply has changed to further hammer the pipe (Bryan), it seems like no matter what Bryan does Jason finds a new hammer to use on the pipe?

http://forum.vatusa.us/index.php?showtopic=1856&hl=

While it may not exactly be the most publicly pleasing way to go about it, Jason absolutely knows what he's talking about. He is the third member to join VATSIM and has held various staff positions before, he's been on VATSIM longer than anybody else on these forums. JV brings up really good points, and obviously the way he brings them up worked for 05-05, so why stop when more needs to be accomplished?

[David Jedrejcic]

That's fine, Bruce.  I understand that you'll stick up for your folks, as I will mine.  I believe that it is my duty as a staff member to speak up when I believe the actions of a VATUSA staff member, ARTCC staff member, or individual controller are out of line, and I believe Jason's use of the forums to continually berate the VATUSA and VATNA staff members are out of line, and I said so.  I was not "attacking" your controller for my own satisfaction - there was a very simple reason for my comments to him.  I recommended different courses of action that could be taken to achieve the goal he wants to achieve, and I never once said that his goals were not worthy of undertaking.

The next time that I say that one of your controllers is not fit to do their job, and poke fun at their lack of timeliness on a particular issue even though I know they are not being paid to do what they do, and then imply that they are not treating their constituents in a fair and equitable manner, and then accuse them of covering up alleged misuses of their powers, all in a public forum, then you can call it mistreatment of your controllers.  Especially if I do it every day of the week.  It is this type of behavior that I am calling to the table, and I feel that I am well within my limits as a VATUSA member, and a VATUSA staff member to do so if nobody else is going to say anything about it.

And I particularly loathe how I am left to defend my actions against completely different personnel while Jason has moved on to open a brand new "discussion" in a different post.  As for your statement that the hammering of 05-05 is finished now, well he has, without stopping to breathe, begun to hammer the new policies, now that his hammering of 05-05 is done.  

Jason, if you're still listening, I honestly admire your willingness to be so involved in the goings-on of VATUSA, and I would be quite happy to have these types of discussions with you on Teamspeak or some other voice-capable media, where I believe that many of these issues could be described and understood with much less time and effort.  But if you want to do this, I do not understand why you are not part of the staff, which is where you need to be if you are to affect changes in the system - I believe I've said this to you before.  And I believe your response was something along the lines of "the system doesn't care, the BoG is corrupt, VATNA is broken, VATUSA is impotent, etc., etc.," - so if you believe all of this, then how is it that you expect any of your great ideas to make it into the system, so to speak, if you are not there to do it yourself?

[Brian Pryor]

Jason...    He is the third member to join VATSIM and has held various staff positions before, he's been on VATSIM longer than anybody else on these forums.

He was in the initial batch of persons processed from SATCO to VATSIM , hence why i'm 138 (they are mostly in alpha). Not to slight his qualifications but to point out there are many who have been around as long as him if not longer.

[David Jedrejcic]

While it may not exactly be the most publicly pleasing way to go about it, Jason absolutely knows what he's talking about. He is the third member to join VATSIM and has held various staff positions before, he's been on VATSIM longer than anybody else on these forums. JV brings up really good points, and obviously the way he brings them up worked for 05-05, so why stop when more needs to be accomplished?

No one said he needs to stop trying to affect positive change - we're just sick of the hammering.  It's rude and noisy.  Use a different technique is all I'm saying.

And no one has questioned Jason's abilities or his areas of expertise.  But quoting the length of his tenure does not mean that all of his actions are sanctioned, carte blanche.

[Bruce Clingan]

The next time that I say that one of your controllers is not fit to do their job, and poke fun at their lack of timeliness on a particular issue even though I know they are not being paid to do what they do, and then imply that they are not treating their constituents in a fair and equitable manner, and then accuse them of covering up alleged misuses of their powers, all in a public forum, then you can call it mistreatment of your controllers.  Especially if I do it every day of the week.  It is this type of behavior that I am calling to the table, and I feel that I am well within my limits as a VATUSA member, and a VATUSA staff member to do so if nobody else is going to say anything about it.

When we take staff positions we should expect members to disagree with decisions we make and criticize our actions.  It has happened a few times recently to me, actually earlier today Jason criticized my supervision of one of my staff members just today.  I'll take his criticism, use it to review the way that I conduct business and respond to him with my findings expeditiously as I do all complaints.  Now if I publicly went after one of my controllers in our forums I am sure I would never hear the end of it.  So I don't view criticism of a staff member the same as I do of a regular member.

Edited because I realized I don't know ow to use the correct tense

[David Jedrejcic]

Point taken.