Pilots flying JAX, MLB, DAB and MCO/ORL/SFB

[Daniel Hawton]

The other reason being that MCO is a major while TPA is not.  And another reason, if you go to airnav and look up airports in Tampa's airspace, you'll see ARTCC being referenced to Miami, and airports in MCO's airsapce referencing Jacksonville.  Swapping it around, back and forth, will be confusing for pilots.  A majority have it down were they contact JAX CTR around 10000 or so after leaving TPA.  Not too sure about the Orlando side contacting MIA, though.

[Arthur Heiser]

Not too sure about the Orlando side contacting MIA, though.

Some pilots are good about that, but you can never be perfect.

[J Jason Vodnansky]

The other reason being that MCO is a major while TPA is not.  And another reason, if you go to airnav and look up airports in Tampa's airspace, you'll see ARTCC being referenced to Miami, and airports in MCO's airsapce referencing Jacksonville.  Swapping it around, back and forth, will be confusing for pilots.  A majority have it down were they contact JAX CTR around 10000 or so after leaving TPA.  Not too sure about the Orlando side contacting MIA, though.

Daniel,

You say that KMCO is a "major" airport.  Upon review of the GRP, which is the only list of approved "major" airports, KMCO is NOT on that list.  How are you able to treat it as a "major" facility?

Obviously you have approval for this, so could you, or your ATD,  share with us the process you used to treat KMCO as a "major" airport, and how you got this approved?


Thanks,
Jason Vodnansky

[Daniel Hawton]

Daniel,

You say that KMCO is a "major" airport.  Upon review of the GRP, which is the only list of approved "major" airports, KMCO is NOT on that list.  How are you able to treat it as a "major" facility?

Obviously you have approval for this, so could you, or your ATD,  share with us the process you used to treat KMCO as a "major" airport, and how you got this approved?


Thanks,
Jason Vodnansky

You are correct, it became a major AFTER GRP v2.0 was released.  As far as the process, it was handled by the ATM and DATM of ZJX, not sure who they contacted.  To verify major airports within VATUSA, visit http://www.vatusa.net/major_apt_list.php

[J Jason Vodnansky]

Interesting, I wasn't aware that VATUSA could override the EC.

Gary, if you are watching this thread, is the list on VATUSA's site correct?

Bryan, as VATNA1, and as the chair of the EC, could you explain the process used to designate a "major" facility?  When did the EC vote on adding KMCO to the list? Could you also explain which source takes priority?

Surely some process has been used to bypass the EC's authority...

Jason Vodnansky

[J Jason Vodnansky]

Daniel

With reference to your "super-tracon", something that is unclear to me is the progression of the student thru the S-3 to C-1 level...

Assuming that KMCO IS, in fact, a "major" airport, am I correct is saying a student going through your training program would get;

1)  S-2 rating
2)  KMCO endorsement
3)  S-3 rating
4)  F11 ( I think) endorsement
5)  Then the Controller (C-1) rating

Is that the correct order?

Jason Vodnansky

[Gary Millsaps]

Interesting, I wasn't aware that VATUSA could override the EC.

Gary, if you are watching this thread, is the list on VATUSA's site correct?

Bryan, as VATNA1, and as the chair of the EC, could you explain the process used to designate a "major" facility?  When did the EC vote on adding KMCO to the list? Could you also explain which source takes priority?

Surely some process has been used to bypass the EC's authority...

On reviewing the GRP v2 list, I would say there has been an inadvertent omission of KMCO as an authorized MAJOR Facility within the vZJX ARTCC. I found no facility from vZJX in the list at all and think if any facility within the ARTCC warrants MAJOR status, it would be KMCO. Additionally, it was accepted as such prior to GRPv2 and would think that status carried forward to v2 with no reservations.

As for the process to establish a MAJOR, it is the same it has always been...request processed through the Division to Region where all things being good-to-go, it is presented at the next scheduled EC meeting and voted on.

NOTE: There is NO allowance for nor intent at the Division level to override this process.

One question I have, was this coordinated/approved through the Southern ATD?

[Daniel Hawton]

On reviewing the GRP v2 list, I would say there has been an inadvertent omission of KMCO as an authorized MAJOR Facility within the vZJX ARTCC. I found no facility from vZJX in the list at all and think if any facility within the ARTCC warrants MAJOR status, it would be KMCO. Additionally, it was accepted as such prior to GRPv2 and would think that status carried forward to v2 with no reservations.

As for the process to establish a MAJOR, it is the same it has always been...request processed through the Division to Region where all things being good-to-go, it is presented at the next scheduled EC meeting and voted on.

NOTE: There is NO allowance for nor intent at the Division level to override this process.

One question I have, was this coordinated/approved through the Southern ATD?

From what was given to me from the ATM/DATM/TA, it was approved before I got there.  Not sure who they coordinated with.  One of them would be the best people to ask.  Recently, due to some internal things, I have stepped down from FE so I am no longer the best person to ask and the senior staff of ZJX do not frequent these forums.  Not sure, but I know it was coordinated through either VATUSA8 or VATNA1 at the bare minimum.  Exactly whom, I don't know.. it was/is above my paygrade.

[Daniel Hawton]

Daniel

With reference to your "super-tracon", something that is unclear to me is the progression of the student thru the S-3 to C-1 level...

Assuming that KMCO IS, in fact, a "major" airport, am I correct is saying a student going through your training program would get;

1)  S-2 rating
2)  KMCO endorsement
3)  S-3 rating
4)  F11 ( I think) endorsement
5)  Then the Controller (C-1) rating

Is that the correct order?

Jason Vodnansky

No, there is no training requirement For F11.  There is no extra endorsements (not permitted through the GRP v2 anyway).  F11 is there if the controller WANTS to control it, and/or use it as a stepping stone to center since a majority of the time center is just an extra large TRACON with an extra set of responsibilities.  There is no requirement to even work F11.  It's there if the controller wants it.  The training staff have been instructed to not require training on it, and only monitor people on F11 if the student requests it.

So the steps still are:

1) S-2 rating
2) Major Tower
3) S-3
4) Major approach (MCO) [AFTER this step, a person can work F11 since F11 is inclusive of MCO airspace but they must complete this step first]
5) C-1

[Rahul Parkar]

ZJX had previously decided/asked to take KMCO off the Major airport list to support inclusivity and because our traffic flow wasn't the best.

Just to shed some light on the situation as I was the FE at ZJX when the Major airport application was sent through.

DATM & ATM of ZJX spoke with David J. *To my understanding* with my recommendations as well to have ZJX come forth as a Major airport.

We were then forwarded to either a button on the VATUSA website This was very very recently after you had been appointed VATUSA1.

On Saturday May 1st 2010 the DATM "who clicked the button on the VATUSA site" was sent an email that was also sent to David J. among other VATUSA staff. The email had a message that confirmed the major airport application had been approved.

Hope this helps

Rahul

[Norman Blackburn]

http://www.vatsim.net/network/docs/grp/ is the only written authority for a 'major'

KMCO is not yet listed there.  If the intent is for it to be a major it can only be approved by the EC and only when listed does its status change.

[Gary Millsaps]

http://www.vatsim.net/network/docs/grp/ is the only written authority for a 'major'

KMCO is not yet listed there.  If the intent is for it to be a major it can only be approved by the EC and only when listed does its status change.

KMCO's MAJOR status is being worked out...should have a resolution very shortly.

[Norman Blackburn]

KMCO's MAJOR status is being worked out...should have a resolution very shortly.

Great news Gary.

[Bruce Clingan]

Gary while you are sorting that out could you work on KCVG's?  We submitted a packet to Brian (who was VATUSA1 and VATNA1) in Feburary or March and still haven't been given an approval or denial.  We were told we would have more information after the April EC meeting but never got a response.  My review of the meeting minutes affords me to believe that it wasn't processed at that point.  Our understanding is that it must be unanimously approved by the EC.

[Thomas King]

not to start a thread about adding fields to the list, but could you give some insight for ZOB's request about 4 months ago to add CLE as a major field?  we also haven't heard anything.