Handling a fly out at the TRACON level

Noah Bryant

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Handling a fly out at the TRACON level
« on: February 06, 2011, 10:20:03 PM »
I posted this on my ARTCC's website but thought everyone may benefit from the points bring up.

I'd also be curious if anyone has had any reliable success with speed restrictions working at the en route level.

En route Spacing is probably not something many controllers think about if they aren't working center. A tower controller typically knows what the minimum separation is between departures depending on the aircraft size.

A TRACON controller also knows about minimum separation which is three miles or 1000 feet or 5 miles for aircraft departing on the same initial route (per LOA).

However, the one many people dont think about is the separation needed between aircraft on the same route between centers and that one is 10 miles. In the real world, controllers virtually never have to deal with the same time departure of 20+ planes all going to the same airport, but on VATSIM this is a common occurring during events.

While it may be tempting for that tower controller to shoot them off as fast as minimum separation will allow what they probably arent thinking about is the ripple effect it causes down the line. Now the departure controller must get them separated to that 5 mile minimum separation before handoff to center right? Well if departure gets them all to 5 miles, while yes, they are separated "per policy", however then what does center have to do? Separate them out to 10 miles.

And as easy as it sounds, it really isnt easy at all. Especially considering speed restrictions are usually useless on VATSIM either because the pilot doesnt follow them, or they could be using one of 4 different weather engines, or they could be at different altitudes etc.

So now, this is three separate times a controller has taken some action to get planes separated to their respective minimums. Anyone see an inefficiency here?

Who do you think the single most important controller for attaining proper en route separation? Center? Nope. Tower. If planes are separated properly on the ground the ripple effect of separation never begins.

Granted, there is no single end all solution. Center will still have planes that hang in the for a couple seconds loading scenery, planes that take forever to climb or fly too slowly, etc. But, when tower starts them off right, center's job is so much easier and we can therefore provide better service to pilots.

Here are a few tips to tower/ground controllers for handling a fly out event where all the planes are going to the same airport.

Make sure the planes are on the same route. Having the group diverge and re-converge with itself due to pilots wanting to fly different routes is a nightmare for centers to work with. Although we cant REQUIRE this, we can sure do our best to encourage it. It should be noted that if the route can divert and make use of two different STARs into the same destination airport, that would be best(HR).

Set aside one runway for the group to use. Then use another runway for all the other traffic. For example, if you have a group flight to LAX, put them all on the 34L and then reserve 34R for other flights.

Dont machine gun them off as fast as you can. A plane at 450 kts flies 7.5 miles per minute. If you have at least 70 seconds between departures, thats a huge help.

A TRACON controller can use vectors to separate them. Rather than rty to describe it here, I made a short video illustrating how to use nothing but vectors to separate planes regardless of the rate tower sent them off.

Here is the video:

http://www.noahbryant.com/separation.avi
or
http://www.noahbryant.com/separation.wmv

Notes:

I used DSR mode with a vector length set to 10 miles to illustrate the 10 miles separation needed by center. This also makes it easier to see the vector the plane is on. The situation simulates a tower controller who isn't being incredibly considerate of the 5 or 10 mile rule and shows some things the TRACON controller can do about it.

The first 3 or so planes were all simply given "cleared direct BAYLR." As you can see, they were pretty close to each other and sometimes inside of that 10 mile range (however, still within D01's 5 mile limit).

After that I started shooting them of pretty quick and used vectors to get them separated more. It looks weird, and is probably confusing to the pilot, but it works.

Rahul Parkar

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Handling a fly out at the TRACON level
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2011, 05:23:30 AM »
Noah,

a) May I ask where you are obtaining "10NM Separation when travelling between 2 Centers" On a skim of the 7110.65T, I could not find anywhere where it was stated that 10NM separation is required for flights travelling between En-Route control. If this is in an ARTCC LOA then please specify.

b ) In my opinion you seem to blame TWR controllers, this may not be the case but, why blame TWR controllers if the DEP/APP controller gets them to the specified 3NM increasing to 5NM or more (FAA 7110.65T 5-5-4 Bullet Point 4) separation which is the correct separation.

FAA 7110.65T 5-5-4 Section B also states : 1. Below FL 600- 5 miles. 2. At or above FL 600- 10 miles. This seems most applicable because we combine CTR positions to make a Mosaic Grid sort of position, or so I was told.

c) if the DEP/APP controller is getting aircraft too fast for him to separate correctly, then they may use Departure Releases to maintain the aircraft flow.

Cheers!
Rahul
« Last Edit: February 09, 2011, 05:24:41 AM by Rahul Parkar »

Noah Bryant

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Handling a fly out at the TRACON level
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2011, 07:36:47 AM »
Quote from: Rahul Parkar
Noah,

a) May I ask where you are obtaining "10NM Separation when travelling between 2 Centers" On a skim of the 7110.65T, I could not find anywhere where it was stated that 10NM separation is required for flights travelling between En-Route control. If this is in an ARTCC LOA then please specify.

Yes - LOA

Quote from: Rahul Parkar
b ) In my opinion you seem to blame TWR controllers, this may not be the case but, why blame TWR controllers if the DEP/APP controller gets them to the specified 3NM increasing to 5NM or more (FAA 7110.65T 5-5-4 Bullet Point 4) separation which is the correct separation.
No where do I talk about blame. This isn't a blame game. My point is that the person who CAN do the most to help in this situation is a tower, and many times, while we train tower controllers on minimum separation out of the 7110, we dont always go into reasons why you would wait even longer. I also demonstrate ways TRACON can assist in getting the separation.

Everyone should work together on one big team. I think my video makes it apparent that it's much more difficult for the radar controller to get that separation then it is for tower to simply wait 30 more seconds.

Quote from: Rahul Parkar
c) if the DEP/APP controller is getting aircraft too fast for him to separate correctly, then they may use Departure Releases to maintain the aircraft flow.

Certainly true. Or if the tower controller thinks about the big picture even that isn't necessary.

Nate Johns

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Handling a fly out at the TRACON level
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2011, 08:35:12 PM »
Good lord we're over-thinking this.

If center needs 10-in-trail, same route, that departure restriction is put back down all the way to the tower, period.  It would be an incredible and completely unnecessary amount of work for a departure or center to vector a long-string of aircraft to get from 5 to 10 in trail when tower could have provided the initial separation right at departure time.  Delays on the ground are MUCH easier on the system as a whole, and 10 miles does not a significant delay make.

Tower can and does use radar to determine in-trail spacing.  No need to think so much in terms of time, particularly on the network here.

No need to make a primary Class B or C tower call for release except in extraordinary circumstances (particularly extraordinary for VATSIM).

If it's a solid line of planes going to the same place (as it often is on VATSIM for fly-ins), ensure tower has the appropriate departure restrictions, and they can watch the radar... when one guy is 7-8 miles in the direction of the restriction, launch the next guy, runway barely matters, unless it's an opposite direction runway, then launch em a mile or two earlier.  By the time the 2nd gets airborne, the first one is already at about the 10 miles.  If tower launches one a little too tight, then he/she should wait a little longer on the next one to give departure a ~20 mile gap to stick the middle guy in.

Always better to have a little more than a little less when it comes to in-trail spacing.  Of course, not excessively more.

Speed restrictions SUCK on VATSIM for the simple fact that every other plane has different winds aloft (oh how I wish there was a way to make it truly uniform for all connected).  In all though, not terribly dis-similar to real life.  Building in-trail from a fan of aircraft, wind is pushing from different directions relative to the ultimate direction of travel.  Adjust mach numbers based on ground speed.  .01 mach ~= 6 knots.  Set an anchor point and use the mileage count.  When everyone has the same ground speed when going direct the point for in-trail, relative distance doesn't change.  In the end though, basic rule is vectors to get space, speed to keep it.  If wind is bad, try to vector everyone to approximately the same line to minimize impact of relative wind.

Some closing points.

I would personally look in to getting rid of that static 10 NM restriction... if planes are separated, they're separated.  If the next controller needs in-trail for whatever reason, then coordinate as appropriate.  Otherwise, it's kind of a waste of airspace, and for day-to-day operations, well... I won't go further in to it here.

Real life controllers may never deal with 20 departures from one airport going the same exact route to the same destination, but there are plenty of examples of aircraft exiting the TRACON on the same route to the center.  The solution usually starts with GROUND control in most cases, and planes are taxied to the runway in a sequence that precludes two successive departures going to the same fix.  Knowing VATSIM isn't like this though for typical events... best to just advise the pilots to expect a short delay waiting on/holding short of the departure runway for in-trail spacing.

Nice videos, and they get the point across... but for others, remember to think that departure may not have the luxury of cranking around quite so much or climbing above 100 to get the lead guy up to speed as fast when arrival traffic is heavy.  Denver's got clean, clean airspace... most other places don't have it quite so nice.

~Nate

Noah Bryant

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Handling a fly out at the TRACON level
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2011, 10:20:31 PM »
Thanks Nate - some great points there. And I had never heard the .01 mach to 6kts thing before. I'll keep it in mind even though VATSIM speed restrictions are still kind of a joke.

Nate Johns

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Handling a fly out at the TRACON level
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2011, 11:14:19 PM »
Quote from: Noah Bryant
Thanks Nate - some great points there. And I had never heard the .01 mach to 6kts thing before. I'll keep it in mind even though VATSIM speed restrictions are still kind of a joke.

One other thing for en-route speeds.

1000 feet ~= .01 Mach (Same mach number higher is slower).

So, guy at 340 and 360.  340 guy at M.76.  Barring wild temp/wind changes, 360 guy would need to do M.78 to have roughly the same groundspeed.

Sometimes to get desired spacing, if winds were wildly different at differing altitudes, or more often if a guy in the middle of a pack was way up high and already firewalling it to keep pace and was failing to stay in his gap, it would become quite necessary to drop him to the same/close flight level as the people he's in sequence with, just so the plane could physically move faster over the ground.  Burns a hell of a lot of gas, but man... when it's 20+ MIT with a conga line, you don't have much choice.

~Nate