Oh no...

Rahul Parkar · « **Reply #15 on:** November 14, 2011, 07:18:29 PM »

How about we stop talking like this is a done deal and hope that like most governmental things, this falls through?

Cheers!
Rahul

Don Desfosse · « **Reply #16 on:** November 14, 2011, 07:48:47 PM »

Hope is futile -- action is necessary to change a decision that has already been made.

Tim Farrell · « **Reply #17 on:** November 14, 2011, 08:28:04 PM »

Quote from: Ryan Geckler

Could some sort of educational deal be reached between VATSIM/VATUSA and FAA? Of course, it'd have to be on a regulated website, but it'd be better than nothing.

Great idea Ryan. I would think this to be a great way to approach a resolution to the matter, otherwise writing our Congressman may be the next step. Maybe Vatsim could get the FAA to let Vatsim use the charts with the agreement the charts would be visible only to Vatsim members.

Third step - Fire up the copy machine

Government Failures -

Postal Service (broke)
Amtrak (broke)
Medicare (broke)
Social Security (broke - backed by Treasury bills, no cash)
Healthcare (on the verge of chaos)
Fannie Mae (bailed out with stimulus money and still asking for more)
Freddie Mac (bailed out with stimulus money and still asking for more)

...and now it appears the FAA may not be far behind.

Michael Bertolini · « **Reply #18 on:** November 14, 2011, 08:59:40 PM »

Quote from: Tim Farrell

Great idea Ryan. I would think this to be a great way to approach a resolution to the matter, otherwise writing our Congressman may be the next step. Maybe Vatsim could get the FAA to let Vatsim use the charts with the agreement the charts would be visible only to Vatsim members.

Third step - Fire up the copy machine

Government Failures -

Postal Service (broke)
Amtrak (broke)
Medicare (broke)
Social Security (broke - backed by Treasury bills, no cash)
Healthcare (on the verge of chaos)
Fannie Mae (bailed out with stimulus money and still asking for more)
Freddie Mac (bailed out with stimulus money and still asking for more)

...and now it appears the FAA may not be far behind.

This is America. After all of these breakdowns and shut downs, there is no more "free" is "dom". "The Home of Brave" is now "Home of The Dependence".

No more free country. This country is unfortunately going sour... day by day.

Say good-bye to "Freedom" and "Brave" if you want to survive here anymore..

I hope some lawmaker can come to the rescue... :/

Harold Rutila · « **Reply #19 on:** November 14, 2011, 09:04:06 PM »

Rahul,

The problem is that when it comes to fees, proposals for them rarely disappear unless there is a very vigorous opposition to them. User fees in both the Bush and Obama administration are a prime example of that, and we have AOPA and EAA to thank for their lobbying against that issue. I feel the same way about the chart fees; in a way, it's almost like because user fees are no longer on the table, they want to collect funds from chart distribution, which to me is unacceptable.

Also, I feel that 3rd parties will start subscription services as a means of surviving this. Individuals will have access via those parties.

Harold Rutila · « **Reply #20 on:** November 14, 2011, 09:06:08 PM »

Quote from: Tim Farrell

Postal Service (broke)
Amtrak (broke)
Medicare (broke)
Social Security (broke - backed by Treasury bills, no cash)
Healthcare (on the verge of chaos)
Fannie Mae (bailed out with stimulus money and still asking for more)
Freddie Mac (bailed out with stimulus money and still asking for more)

...and now it appears the FAA may not be far behind.

And amen to that!

Wesley Miles · « **Reply #21 on:** November 14, 2011, 09:12:53 PM »

If this were to go through as planned, I don't think VATSIM approaching the FAA would render any results. But it's been my experience working with the government... things rarely happen when/as planned. With all the bureaucracy and politics, things (details, timelines, etc) change all the time. I'm not trying to downplay the situation, but let's not hit the PANIC button here. Also take care not to jump to conclusions... they haven't even announced a price yet!

For those who have not seen it, the power of a congressman is incredible (when they don't have to agree on budgets). I plan on writing my representative with a letter similar to the template above and I highly encourage everyone else to do the same. Let's just contact our congressmen, take this in stride, and wait... the only things that we can really do.

Owen Catherwood · « **Reply #22 on:** November 14, 2011, 09:35:23 PM »

From the Avweb discussion of the article:
[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]Aeronav services are not currently funded by the FAA through the general fund, they raise their costs (only! no profit) of operation through charging for distributing chart data. When they produced paper, this was easy as each chart had some percentage of the price include the cost of collection, etc. But paper is going away rapidly.[/quote]

Bryan Wollenberg · « **Reply #23 on:** November 14, 2011, 11:06:57 PM »

First off, let me say that I think it's absolutely silly.

That said. Pilots need charts to fly. That being the case, I don't see them making the cost prohibitively expensive for individuals. Of course I'm just speculating.

What would stop one person from getting an account and just sharing the details with everyone else, or even just downloading all the charts and distributing them? Are they going to copyright the charts now and have distribution clauses? Who the hell knows, but I'm sure there will always be cost-effective ways of getting the charts.

Andrew Wolcott · « **Reply #24 on:** November 15, 2011, 12:05:27 AM »

Seems to me that Harold has really hit the core problem square on the head. The rest is really just drivel.

For anyone who pays taxes to the U.S. Government, this new program will be a double taxation on a service we already pay for. I am vehemently against this. We should not be concerning ourselves with ensuring we receive the charts, but more so the idea that our government can impose a tax or "user fee" on top of what we already pay.

The FAA (and the rest of GOVT) needs to learn how to live within it's means, not continually force the citizens/taxpayers to hand over their lunch money.

Write your representatives, AOPA, FAA, NBAA, local airport authorities, EAA etc etc.

Fight this tooth and nail.

Salvatore Barcia · « **Reply #25 on:** November 15, 2011, 06:54:16 AM »

Quote from: Tim Farrell

Great idea Ryan. I would think this to be a great way to approach a resolution to the matter, otherwise writing our Congressman may be the next step. Maybe Vatsim could get the FAA to let Vatsim use the charts with the agreement the charts would be visible only to Vatsim members.

Third step - Fire up the copy machine

Government Failures -

Postal Service (broke)
Amtrak (broke)
Medicare (broke)
Social Security (broke - backed by Treasury bills, no cash)
Healthcare (on the verge of chaos)
Fannie Mae (bailed out with stimulus money and still asking for more)
Freddie Mac (bailed out with stimulus money and still asking for more)

...and now it appears the FAA may not be far behind.

Soon you'll see Occupy VATSIM on the news! Haha

Wesley Miles · « **Reply #26 on:** November 15, 2011, 09:37:05 AM »

Quote from: Salvatore Barcia

Soon you'll see Occupy VATSIM on the news! Haha

This made me laugh. I could see it now.

Michael Siniakin · « **Reply #27 on:** November 15, 2011, 01:37:52 PM »

Petition
http://www.change.org/petitions/federal-av...r-online-charts

Harold Rutila · « **Reply #28 on:** November 15, 2011, 09:08:40 PM »

I'm not signing a petition; this is a real world issue with real world consequences. One poster says "I fly online with MSFS and not having charts would very much ruin the exprience. Also, what about real pilots who use laptops to bring up charts? Come on FAA, this isn't cool." How does that at all substantiate the importance of the issues? It doesn't, and there are many others like it on that petition. Write Congress. Here's why:

Congress has actually authorized the FAA to do this under this law: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/usc...21----000-.html According to the law, the FAA cannot make a profit, though I suppose the numbers could be skewed (and then reported later by the inspector general or something).

There are many different solutions they could take in reducing operating expenses that do not include initiating a fee. They could switch to all paper charts again, and then let websites digitize and distribute for free. They could limit their own digital distribution service to third party companies. In combination or separately, Congress could get rid of the provision that allows us to be double-taxed.

One other major concern I have is that VFR pilots will no longer care to look up information on IFR approaches that are being conducted at airports. Free distribution especially contributes to safety of flight in this instance.

I'm still wondering if anyone knows about any other federal government services that require fees. Just curious.

Jonathan Cox · « **Reply #29 on:** November 16, 2011, 01:08:24 PM »

Skyvector will be okay. They posted on their forum that they intend to keep it running, and access for us will continue to be free. Finally, a break in the clouds.