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Tom Seeley

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« Reply #30 on: December 01, 2011, 06:42:49 AM »
Quote from: Charles Rizzi
Back when?

Bet you thought I was dead ;-)

CR

Charlie Rizzi! Yes sir, I did indeed think you had vaporized into the ether somewhere. Glad to 'see' you again, hope it's not a one-time thing.

C3 Rating
« Reply #31 on: December 01, 2011, 11:09:02 AM »
Quote from: Andrew Wolcott
C3 used to have a benchmark. It represented 200 hours or more controlling as a C1.

Now it has come to be more of an indicator of who has served as a TA, or otherwise served in an ARTCC Staff position or higher.

Getting rid of the C3? Nothing doing.

I was TA and never got it.  Thankfully I don't mind being a C1.  C3 is, to me, another way people can add a "special" title to their list.

Kevin Kelm

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« Reply #32 on: December 01, 2011, 01:37:48 PM »
Quote from: Andrew Wolcott
C3 used to have a benchmark. It represented 200 hours or more controlling as a C1.

Now it has come to be more of an indicator of who has served as a TA, or otherwise served in an ARTCC Staff position or higher.

Getting rid of the C3? Nothing doing.

The sole reason they got rid of it as this purpose (200 hours as C1), according to Gary Millsaps, was because people were complaining about how "broad and unfair" it was, in simple terms (which seems funny because setting an hourly metric on the rating is 100% less broad than VATSIM's definition of a C3).

It was never awarded based on a staff position etc, as before the "200 hours as c1" ruling, it was used to represent the ability to control Center, as someone posted earlier above me. Now as I said before, I wouldn't mind using it as an incentive to reward controllers for "overall good performance" on the network; as decided by maybe a board of several members on VATUSA staff.

People need to get away from this idea of "fairness and equality" in regards to this rating. As is today, those with C3 ratings already have it because of completely different reasons. Pre-GRP, because it was necessary to control Center; and after that, awarded at 200 hours. Gary himself told me that the primary worry with the "200 hours" was that a ton of people would come to reap the benefits of the C3, basically "diluting" the market for it; to his surprise, this actually did not happen. Not that many people, even with that set # of hours, applied for the rating.

Have VATSIM staff come up with an appropriate means of evaluating each candidate, and open up an application to several members of the Staff as a board. Maybe they can set a minimum # of hours just to stop EVERYONE from trying to apply; but that way, no one can complain. We don't complain about the way we have to take tests or receive training from VATUSA, or even if we do, it is how it is; why not take the same stand with this rating?

My real feeling, is that the C3 rating itself isn't going to really make people stay on and control more, but something needs to be done to incentify controllers to stay. I don't want VATSIM to become a "game" any more than the rest of you; but if there was a reward/points system; I guarantee you the staffing levels would greatly increase. This really isn't a new idea. VATSIM has already recognized this with things such as the Iron Mic award, the newer Golden Mic award, and also those little images that people can attach to their signatures that rewards them for controlling for 1000/2000+ hours. VATSIM woke up and realized this, now it's VATUSA's turn to implement something. Gary mentioned in our discussion about plans to implement a system of rewarding controllers for time on the network. We'll see if it comes through. I don't want this to be something like BF3 or Call of Duty where you get "unlocks" and "XP" for controlling, but something similar seems necessary for the growth of the network.

Why do you think rank systems are being implemented in almost every single game released for PC and Xbox? Because it's effective; and people come back and play; not even just because they love the game. We have supervisors and staff to watch each ARTCC that C1s aren't controlling "Uncle Bobs Airport Clearance Delivery" positions just to get hours; so that's a pretty weak argument to make against it.

That's just my two cents.


Rahul Parkar

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« Reply #33 on: December 01, 2011, 02:52:24 PM »
[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]We have supervisors and staff to watch each ARTCC that C1s aren't controlling "Uncle Bobs Airport Clearance Delivery" positions just to get hours; so that's a pretty weak argument to make against it.[/quote]

So now you'd have to work hours outside the tower cab to get the C3?

Moving on,

I don't see why there needs to be ratings and incentives to do this, this isn't a game where the objective is to have you buy the product and keep you so glued that you come back for the next installment,

This is a hobby that people love, and well, go a bit OTT about, and in one that takes up so much real time over an elongated period of multiple years for most, we have to recognize that we cannot keep them here by handing out new pretty pictures and new ratings and whatever else.

They will leave for their own reasons, whether it be family or personal issues with others, or controlling burnout, and using "handouts" won't stop that.

Heck, I would be willing to bet that the key cause of burnout is the near-requirement of having to work with people who don't have the faintest clue of what they are doing, and although it's not their fault as they are not required to learn anything except how to connect, controllers go through a lot of training to go on the scopes, it is viewed as totally unfair, and it's a growing argument for, in my opinion, the growing number of controllers burning out.

Cheers!
Rahul
« Last Edit: December 01, 2011, 03:21:19 PM by Rahul Parkar »

Kevin Kelm

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« Reply #34 on: December 01, 2011, 03:41:22 PM »
Quote from: Rahul Parkar
So now you'd have to work hours outside the tower cab to get the C3?

Not sure I understand; the only thing I can see that would be problematic is controllers controlling positions they know they wont get traffic on just to log time.

Quote from: Rahul Parkar
Moving on,

I don't see why there needs to be ratings and incentives to do this, this isn't a game where the objective is to have you buy the product and keep you so glued that you come back for the next installment,

This is a hobby that people love, and well, go a bit OTT about, and in one that takes up so much real time over an elongated period of multiple years for most, we have to recognize that we cannot keep them here by handing out new pretty pictures and new ratings and whatever else.

They will leave for their own reasons, whether it be family or personal issues with others, or controlling burnout, and using "handouts" won't stop that.

Heck, I would be willing to bet that the key cause of burnout is the near-requirement of having to work with people who don't have the faintest clue of what they are doing, and although it's not their fault as they are not required to learn anything except how to connect, controllers go through a lot of training to go on the scopes, it is viewed as totally unfair, and it's a growing argument for, in my opinion, the growing number of controllers burning out.

You're right, it wont stop everyone from leaving; nothing will. But with a turnover rate of over 90% (number from my own experience at ZSE since 2004), something has to be able to change it.

If it doesn't make a difference, then how come VATSIM has started implementing these kind of things I mentioned above? Whether you want to realize it or not, the kinds of systems I referred to the post prior to this do work to incentify people to come on. People don't just leave because of "real world reasons"; they straight-up get bored. We have an opporunity to fix that. You yourself Rahul might not need any incentive to control, I'm with you on that. But not everybody is the same way, in fact, I think most do not enjoy it for the reasons we do; at least not in the long term.

Many people say they enjoy it purely for the controlling, but if that is the case, why is the turnover so high?



Rahul Parkar

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« Reply #35 on: December 01, 2011, 03:50:03 PM »
Yes,

But I never saw a public post by the BoG / Founders making the program an incentive, note that they privately sent the email to those who had amassed the hours in a show of respect, this has a secondary effect of making it an incentive, but that does not seem to be the primary effect sought by the VATSIM BoG / Founders to my eye.

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]Many people say they enjoy it purely for the controlling, but if that is the case, why is the turnover so high?[/quote]

For the reasons I stated above and some new ones
    Burnout
    Family matters
    Personal issues
    Suspension
    Loss of interest
    Near-requirement of training new pilots
    The unfairness (in the mind of some controllers) of the system that ATC has to have training while the pilot can just connect
    And others not listed here[/li]

Edit : Added a clause to the unfairness reason.

Cheers!
Rahul
« Last Edit: December 01, 2011, 04:31:46 PM by Rahul Parkar »

Bryan Wollenberg

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« Reply #36 on: December 01, 2011, 03:56:35 PM »
Quote from: Kevin Kelm
You're right, it wont stop everyone from leaving; nothing will. But with a turnover rate of over 90% (number from my own experience at ZSE since 2004), something has to be able to change it.

Many people say they enjoy it purely for the controlling, but if that is the case, why is the turnover so high?


The turnover rate at ZSE is not at all indicative of the turnover rate for VATUSA or VATSIM as a whole.  My question to you then, is why is the turnover rate so high at ZSE?  

Ryan Geckler

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« Reply #37 on: December 01, 2011, 04:00:45 PM »
*grabs popcorn*

Rahul Parkar

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« Reply #38 on: December 01, 2011, 04:02:24 PM »
*Nicks some of Ryan's popcorn*

Bryan,

I was trying not to hit on that issue..... XD

Cheers!
Rahul

Don Desfosse

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« Reply #39 on: December 01, 2011, 04:14:10 PM »
*Grabs a 12 pack and some Cracker Jack....*

Bryan Wollenberg

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« Reply #40 on: December 01, 2011, 04:27:01 PM »
The turnover question was just rhetorical.  We really don't need to address the turnover rates at specific ARTCCs.

My point is that the turnover rate isn't nearly as high as Kevin is making it out to be.  Member retention is always something we want to look at, obviously, but I highly doubt the C3 rating is causing a massive exodus.  There just isn't anything to support that conclusion.  In fact, I have not heard from one single member who left because s/he can't get the C3 rating.  Rahul provided a very good list as to the possibilities.

Rahul Parkar

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« Reply #41 on: December 01, 2011, 04:30:43 PM »
Hold on, wait, stop for one second here...

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]Rahul provided a very good list as to the possibilities.[/quote]

I did good? Oh boy! Yippee! Finally I did something right...

Moving swiftly on,

I'd have to agree with Bryan, I've never seen anybody leave because they couldn't get a rating, or didn't have any "achievement badges" (As I will now refer to them) to show off.

But if there is any evidence of such, I'm sure that we can begin to address the problem, should there be one.

Cheers!
Rahul
« Last Edit: December 01, 2011, 04:37:36 PM by Rahul Parkar »

Don Desfosse

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« Reply #42 on: December 01, 2011, 05:11:24 PM »
Sorry, too bad... I've already started drinking and I'm from Boston.  Gonna finish the 12 pack and the Cracker Jack....

Kevin Kelm

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« Reply #43 on: December 01, 2011, 05:13:17 PM »
*Grabs a few of Don's cold ones.

Agree to disagree, I'd say that ZSE's turnover is very similar to others. How many active controllers are still around your guys's ARTCCs from the start of VATSIM?

Rahul, your list contains valid reasons, but I feel its a bit of an over-generalization. Do people stop playing computer games because of "family issues" more often then because they get bored with the game?


Kevin Kelm

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« Reply #44 on: December 01, 2011, 05:19:53 PM »
Quote from: Bryan Wollenberg
The turnover question was just rhetorical.  We really don't need to address the turnover rates at specific ARTCCs.

My point is that the turnover rate isn't nearly as high as Kevin is making it out to be.  Member retention is always something we want to look at, obviously, but I highly doubt the C3 rating is causing a massive exodus.  There just isn't anything to support that conclusion.  In fact, I have not heard from one single member who left because s/he can't get the C3 rating.  Rahul provided a very good list as to the possibilities.

Bryan, might I add that I never said once that the lack of the C3 is causing any exodus of such, nor am I drawing that conclusion. What I am saying is that there is nothing wrong with using rewards and such to encourage controllers to log hours. Is there any evidence to support it would hurt membership?

**EDITED, quote from my post above: "My real feeling, is that the C3 rating itself isn't going to really make people stay on and control more, but something needs to be done to incentify controllers to stay"
« Last Edit: December 01, 2011, 05:24:40 PM by Kevin Kelm »