Requesting assistance from Supervisors

Manuel Manigault

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« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2014, 06:57:12 pm »
Thanks for posting, Don.  I did not know you could place an actual message in the .wallop command.  I always thought the syntax
was .wallop <callsign>
Mani Manigault
Air Traffic Director
VATUSA - Northeastern Region

Fred Michaels

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« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2014, 03:57:03 pm »
Quote from: Manuel Manigault
Thanks for posting, Don.  I did not know you could place an actual message in the .wallop command.  I always thought the syntax
was .wallop <callsign>

Honestly, the way I have always done it and was trained to. More information, easier for all involved.
-Fred
Deputy Air Traffic Manager
Miami vARTCC - United States Division (I1)


Colin Schoen

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« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2014, 06:02:14 pm »
Quote from: Manuel Manigault
Thanks for posting, Don.  I did not know you could place an actual message in the .wallop command.  I always thought the syntax
was .wallop <callsign>

Yep, you can type out an entire sentence after it. It just shows up exactly how you see it on your screen after typing .wallop AAL330 unresponsive on runway 25L
Colin Schoen
VATSIM Membership Manager
VATSIM Senior Network Supervisor

Garen Evans

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« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2015, 06:21:05 am »
Thanks for the guidance. I do support the adoption of an efficient protocol when requesting wallop.  However each ARTCC handles things differently, and in general our policy is NOT to use wallop services, except in the most egregious circumstance.  The first example, of an aircraft who is in ZME, and not responding to ATC is a particular case in point: if there is no immediate conflict then it's very simple: no wallop.  In fact in almost all of the examples given we can (and have in the past been able to) "resolve" ourselves, and by doing so have engendered considerable respect by everyone involved.


Quote from: Don Desfosse
//snip//

Examples of good requests for assistance:
.wallop ABC123 in my airspace not contacting ATC, and not responding to multiple requests for contact.  No immediate conflict.
.wallop ABC123 using rude and vulgar language on frequency
.wallop Need help with someone who has a hot mic
.wallop ABC123 not squawking Mode C and says he doesn't know how to

//snip//
-

Bradley Grafelman

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« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2015, 01:23:57 pm »
Quote from: Garen Evans
The first example, of an aircraft who is in ZME, and not responding to ATC is a particular case in point: if there is no immediate conflict then it's very simple: no wallop.
What if it's a new pilot who is unaware of the expectations/requirements of pilots in controlled airspace, how the pilot client works, or how communication in general works on VATSIM (e.g. just because LAX_CTR is online and providing top-down service doesn't mean you can tune to the real world LAX_DEL's frequency and expect it to work)?

I generally do a .wallop in those cases just because I personally think it could be a disservice to the pilot by not doing so. I'll include "no immediate conflict" in the message, and I'm in no way expecting/hoping said pilot will be disconnected from the network (unless (s)he is actually AFK and later develops into a conflict). If it's a pilot who went AFK and hoped that 12 hour long haul flight would rack up the VA hours... well, I'll try to not be too disappointed if/when the pilot gets disconnected.

If it is a new pilot, however, then hopefully I've put him/her in contact with a SUP who would be glad to show them where they can learn more about how VATSIM works and what the expectations are for pilots who fly on it.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2015, 01:25:42 pm by Brad Grafelman »
Controller (C1)
Los Angeles ARTCC

Requesting assistance from Supervisors
« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2015, 08:31:26 pm »
A combination of common sense, good judgement, and good use of discretion prevail well in such a situation that may or may not require the use of the "wallop" command.
Davor Kusec DK
Air Traffic Director - Northeast Region VATUSA
VATSIM Supervisor

Ryan Geckler

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« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2015, 01:02:57 pm »
To play devil's advocate: why should controllers have to use common sense when determining if you should wallop a pilot? If the pilot doesn't check in within the network guidelines,  then he needs to be walloped so the supervisors can deal with it. They should be the ones determining if it's right or wrong.
Ryan Geckler - GK
Former VATUSA3 | Division Training Director
Minneapolis ARTCC | RW Miami ARTCC

Michael Mund-Hoym

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« Reply #22 on: January 16, 2015, 06:53:40 pm »
Ryan, I am fairly sure Davor mentioned the common sense part in a more general way, i.e. it would not be common sense if a controller would wallop for a SUP if a pilot does not respond within 30 seconds after the first contact me request of the controller.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2015, 06:57:20 pm by Michael Mund-Hoym »
Michael Mund-Hoym

Garen Evans

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« Reply #23 on: January 17, 2015, 10:39:05 pm »
That's a good point.  Perhaps it really is a philosophical question. Should controllers be expected to digest the current situation and make a well reasoned judgement, or should they mechanically react to what is presented to them "in the moment", and defer more important decisions to nominally more superior "supervisors".  In my opinion I would rather my controllers exercise a proactive sense of good judgement, rather than wait until a conflict occurs between two aircraft, and I'm sure most would agree that's the essence of common sense.  I should hope all controllers on the network are capable and proactive.  Leaving a decision to a supervisor is tantamount to "passing the buck", in my opinion.



Quote from: Ryan Geckler
To play devil's advocate: why should controllers have to use common sense when determining if you should wallop a pilot? If the pilot doesn't check in within the network guidelines,  then he needs to be walloped so the supervisors can deal with it. They should be the ones determining if it's right or wrong.
-

Christopher Stacy

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« Reply #24 on: January 19, 2015, 01:44:57 pm »
Quote from: Garen Evans
That's a good point.  Perhaps it really is a philosophical question. Should controllers be expected to digest the current situation and make a well reasoned judgement, or should they mechanically react to what is presented to them "in the moment", and defer more important decisions to nominally more superior "supervisors".  In my opinion I would rather my controllers exercise a proactive sense of good judgement, rather than wait until a conflict occurs between two aircraft, and I'm sure most would agree that's the essence of common sense.  I should hope all controllers on the network are capable and proactive.  Leaving a decision to a supervisor is tantamount to "passing the buck", in my opinion.

Just for the record, I don't really think of using .wallop as a "pass the buck" method. As a supervisor it is my job to deal with this sort of thing. I don't think controllers should be expected to necessarily be able to take the time needed to get in contact with an unresponsive pilot, particularly when the pilot is new and may not have even managed to sort out using text or private messaging in their pilot client yet. Honestly this can be a very time consuming process, and I don't think it's reasonable to expect that a controller should always be able to spare the time necessary, particularly when busy.

The issue isn't that supervisors are somehow superior to controllers (they aren't), or that controllers are incapable of dealing with conflicts in their airspace without help (in most cases, they are quite good at this). The issue is that it's not always easy for a controller to take the time needed to teach a pilot how to respond to PMs or tune a frequency, particularly when the pilot is very new to Vatsim (I find that this is almost always the case among non-responsive pilots who aren't simply AFK). I have always advised my controllers to use all of the tools at their disposal to quickly and efficiently resolve problems, and .wallop is another tool available to them.

And just for the record, the idea of waiting for an impending conflict before eliciting a supervisor seems to indicate that the function of a supervisor is always disciplinary in nature. This isn't necessarily the case, and in some cases may actually limit the options of the supervisor. If I receive a wallop and by the time I see the aircraft in question, a conflict is imminent, this leaves me with little option other than to immediately resolve the situation (unfortunately, my options for this are extremely limited). If, on the other hand, I receive the wallop while this pilot is still off by himself and not in conflict, this gives me the additional time required to potentially make contact with the pilot, and ideally get the pilot in contact with the controller, which avoids the conflict before it happens.

Just my $0.02
Christopher Stacy
Air Traffic Manager, Houston ARTCC
VATSIM Supervisor

Alexander Iannuzzi

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Re: Requesting assistance from Supervisors
« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2017, 11:24:34 am »
I did it yesterday and it made the process much quicker, thanks for the tip. 
Alexander Iannuzzi
I1-Atlanta Center ARTCC
aiannuzzi.vatsim@gmail.com