KLAS RNAV (GPS) 19L/R ARR proceedure question

Bill Kirkland

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KLAS RNAV (GPS) 19L/R ARR proceedure question
« on: July 21, 2017, 07:16:10 AM »
I have a question regarding what to expect if utilizing a procedural hold as shown for example on the approach plate for KLAS RNAV 19L.

I am fairly new to understanding procedural turns/holds, etc. and would like to understand what I should do in the event I am cleared for the approach by ATC.

Looking at the approach plate for RNAV 19L, if I am coming in from the South, I'm not sure if I would cross the LAS VOR, follow 018deg. Radial to HAMIG maintaining 6300ft, then conduct the published hold, and follow the remaining fixes to get me to 19L?  Or would I proceed direct to HAMIG (without crossing LAS), follow the published hold, then remaining fixes to 19L?

I'm sure ATC would vector me close to the approach, however if I hear "approved for the RNAV 19L app", I'm wondering specifically which navaid I should enter the approach at.  - this is of course assuming I am coming from the South and not utilizing either IAP points (LAPIN or SUVIE).

Thanks in advance!

Bill Kirkland

Jeremy Peterson

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Re: KLAS RNAV (GPS) 19L/R ARR proceedure question
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2017, 08:39:20 AM »
Ok correct me if I'm wrong but this is how I understand RNAV approaches:

When under ATC, if the intercept angle between the final approach course (depicted on the chart) and the course at which ATC instructs you to intercept is less than or equal to 90 degrees,
Quote
the aircraft must be instructed to conduct a straight-in approach.
(FAAO 7110.65W 4-8-1 Approach Clearance Procedures, Para e)

If you would be intercepting the final approach course at an angle greater than 90 degrees, you (as the pilot) are
Quote
allowed to execute the hold-in-lieu of procedure turn.
(FAAO 7110.65W 4-8-1 Approach Clearance Procedures, Fig 4-8-4 )

As it applies to the RNAV (GPS) 19L at LAS, if you were coming from the south, you could do three things:
  • Fly direct to HAMIG (the IF/IAF)

    Because pretty much any course coming from the south is much greater than a 90 degree intercept to the approach segments of this approach, you would be allowed (and most definitely should) perform the hold-in-lieu of procedure turn. Once on the inbound leg, you would fly the rest of the procedure as cleared by ATC.
     
  • Fly (not direct) to LAPIN, making sure that the angle at which you intercept that segment of the approach (>LAPIN..HAMIG<) is no greater than 90 degrees so that you don't have to perform the procedure turn; the procedure turn is NOT authorized.
     
  • Fly to SUVIE and do the same as you would LAPIN, making sure that your intercept is no greater than 90 degrees; the procedure turn is NOT authorized here, too.

When the controller gives your approach clearance, s/he is required to specify "straight-in"--that is, with no procedure turn--if s/he requires that. Otherwise, (if your intercept is greater than 90 degrees), you will be allowed to fly the hold-in-lieu of procedure turn.

Nickolas Christopher

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Re: KLAS RNAV (GPS) 19L/R ARR proceedure question
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2017, 08:52:49 AM »
Hey, Bill. Good question.

For RNAV approaches, you will typically be cleared direct a fix depicted on the approach plate. You will start the approach from that fix. That fix can be an initial approach fix (IAF), an intermediate fix (IF) or a navigational beacon (e.g., VOR). You will typically be given your distance from the fix, a clearance direct to the fix, an altitude crossing restriction and then the approach clearance.

You should expect to conduct the procedure turn unless:
  • you are cleared direct a fix with a leg notated with "NoPT"; or,
  • you are cleared "straight-in" XXX approach by the controller.

Typically, the controller will have you to complete the procedure turn because:
  • your course intercept angle upon reaching the IAF or IF is greater than 90 degrees (this is required by the 7110.65W); or,
  • you're really high and he's letting you use the procedure turn to descend.

If there is an IAF on the approach, you should expect to be cleared direct an IAF. If the controller is going to clear you direct an IF even though there is an IAF, he has to tell you which fix to expect at least 5 miles prior to you reaching that fix.

Using the RNAV RWY 19L approach as the example, I'll go over each scenario.

As noted above, you can be cleared direct LAS VOR, any initial approach fix (IAF) or intermediate fix (IF). You can start the approach at the LAS VOR specifically because of that solid line and arrow and instructions on how to reach HAMIG. You can also be vectored to final, but I'll leave that out for now.

I'll go over each scenario.

LAPIN or SUVIE
"AAL119, 6 miles from [LAPIN or SUVIE], cleared direct [LAPIN or SUVIE], cross [LAPIN or SUVIE] at or above 7,000. Cleared RNAV runway 19L approach."

HAMIG
You: "Vegas Approach, AAL119, 12,000 with information G, request RNAV runway 19L approach"
ATC: "AAL119, Vegas approach, expect RNAV runway 19L approach, expect direct HAMIG" (Since HAMIG is both an IAF and IF, you should be prepared to go direct without being told. But, I personally would let the pilot know.)
You: "Expecting direct HAMIG, AAL119."
ATC: "AAL119, 7 miles from HAMIG, cleared direct HAMIG, cross HAMIG at or above 5,300, cleared straight-in RNAV runway 19L approach."
You: "Cleared direct HAMIG, cross HAMIG at or above 5,300, cleared straight-in RNAV runway 19L approach."

Note: HAMIG is on the procedure turn and the "NoPT" notation is absent on that leg. You must then complete the PT. But, in this example, the controller cleared you "straight-in" because he does not want you to complete the procedure turn. If he does not clear you straight-in, he expects you to complete the procedure turn.

LAS VOR
"N172SP, 8 miles from Las Vegas VOR, cleared direct Las Vegas VOR, cross Las Vegas VOR at or above 6,300, cleared RNAV runway 19L approach.

Note: In this case, you must complete the procedure turn because:
  • the "NoPT" notation is absent on that leg; and,
  • the controller did not (and cannot) clear you "straight-in" because your course intercept angle at HAMIG is greater than 90 degrees

When there's a procedure turn and you're unsure of whether or not to use it, it's always good to ask. It's better to ask than to do something the controller isn't expecting.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2017, 11:55:00 PM by Nickolas Christopher »

Bill Kirkland

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Re: KLAS RNAV (GPS) 19L/R ARR proceedure question
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2017, 11:10:04 AM »
Thank you so much guys.  Very in-depth and informative replies.  I feel much more confident in my understanding of this approach based on your explanations. 

I had flown this approach without ATC presence the other day , and with limited understanding of procedural turns, I had a few "what if" questions.

One additional question, if I may:  I use PFPX for flight planning.  I allowed PFPX to provide a route between KLAX and KLAS.  Based on weather at KLAS, it chose 19L for landing.  The STAR it selected was KPEC 4.  Since the KPEC 4 is an RNAV STAR, only showing Rwys 25 L/R, is it allowed to be used for the 19L/R runways or just those shown on the ARR?   - or should I have tried to find a better arrival procedure for this flight?

Thanks again.

Bill Kirkland


Nickolas Christopher

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Re: KLAS RNAV (GPS) 19L/R ARR proceedure question
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2017, 02:27:09 PM »
Another good question. Some airports have arrivals that are used based both on the runway configuration and the direction from which aircraft are arriving. The arrivals at KLAS are solely based on the direction from which an aircraft is arriving, not which runway configuration is in use.

The KEPEC4 STAR is the standard route for jets coming from the southwest. The fact that it feeds to ILS RWY 25L is likely to make arrivals easier and increase traffic throughput. You are not restricted to landing on 25L.

Prevailing weather conditions may determine KLAS is landing 1L/R and 7R. Even still, the same arrivals will be used based on the direction from which you are arriving. If you're landing on a runway other than the one to which the STAR feeds, the controller will give you a vector for the appropriate approach.

Brad Littlejohn

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Re: KLAS RNAV (GPS) 19L/R ARR proceedure question
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2017, 12:02:31 AM »
Thank you so much guys.  Very in-depth and informative replies.  I feel much more confident in my understanding of this approach based on your explanations. 

I had flown this approach without ATC presence the other day , and with limited understanding of procedural turns, I had a few "what if" questions.

One additional question, if I may:  I use PFPX for flight planning.  I allowed PFPX to provide a route between KLAX and KLAS.  Based on weather at KLAS, it chose 19L for landing.  The STAR it selected was KPEC 4.  Since the KPEC 4 is an RNAV STAR, only showing Rwys 25 L/R, is it allowed to be used for the 19L/R runways or just those shown on the ARR?   - or should I have tried to find a better arrival procedure for this flight?

Thanks again.

Bill Kirkland

A couple of things on this one.

When it comes to the KEPEC4, you can expect ILS 25L, let alone a visual approach to 25L. Most of the time, KLAS is VMC, and in most conditions, visibility is more than 10SM, so you'd definitely get a visual approach. With that being said, you can always put runway 19L or 19R on request, and if there is the availability for it, ATC can accommodate. However, it would more than likely be the visual approach to 19L or 19R.

I say Visual approach in this case, because  roughly 2 miles north of the Stratosphere Tower (which is depicted even in default sceneries) is KLSV: Nellis AFB, which is in military restricted airspace. Because of that, that effectively eliminates the RNAV(GPS) 19L and RNAV(GPS) 19R IAPs. The holding pattern and 2 of the IAFs (SUVIE and HAMIG) are in restricted airspace, and LAPIN, while not in that airspace, gives you a 291 heading that will take you to the to the IF for the pattern or between the IF and FAF, which are just inside restricted airspace. Being cleared for a visual approach with the vectors keeping you south of the restricted space while allowing you to slow and turn final will help there.

And finally, while not part of the FAA plates, there is the RNAV/Visual 19L or RNAV/Visual 19R plate that is available via Jeppesen. That may be an option, but as far as the FAA charts go, restricted airspace severely limits the RNAV(GPS) 19L/R charts.

BL.

Ryan Parry

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Re: KLAS RNAV (GPS) 19L/R ARR proceedure question
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2017, 04:09:40 PM »
I use PFPX for flight planning.  I allowed PFPX to provide a route between KLAX and KLAS.  Based on weather at KLAS, it chose 19L for landing.  The STAR it selected was KPEC 4.  Since the KPEC 4 is an RNAV STAR, only showing Rwys 25 L/R, is it allowed to be used for the 19L/R runways or just those shown on the ARR?   - or should I have tried to find a better arrival procedure for this flight?

Thanks again.

Bill Kirkland

Just a little side note on PFPX, it's a really great program that does a lot of (in some cases more than) what it's real world counter parts do, however it is a tool used for pre-flight planning. It doesn't look into the future though, it uses current conditions and much like its real world counterparts will select things incorrectly. It's good practice to check over the things PFPX selects and ask yourself "will this make sense when I get there"? Just as an example, it picked 19L for landing, but it based that off of the current METAR, not the forecast conditions (TAF).

 

Matthew Kosmoski

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Re: KLAS RNAV (GPS) 19L/R ARR proceedure question
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2017, 09:22:59 PM »
but it based that off of the current METAR, not the forecast conditions (TAF).

And remember that the TAF is often only as good as far as you can crumple and throw it.  Use the rest of the tools available to determine your forecast.  A great portion of being a pilot (especially light GA with low wing loadings ;-)) is learning how to read and forecast weather.

Tom Solon

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Re: KLAS RNAV (GPS) 19L/R ARR proceedure question
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2017, 11:22:11 PM »
This was a great discussion!