High Speed Climb

Matthew Simmons

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High Speed Climb
« on: February 15, 2020, 11:07:59 am »
Saw it on a training video online and noticed it when listening to transmissions IRL, high speed climb.. It's a commonplace term now for heavies IRL as they're stall speeds are so high when heavy. The specific video I am referring to is explaining the Delta fuel dump over LA and they get up to nearly 370 knots at 7000. If anyone is interested, this is the video and time when SoCal automatically approves hsc: https://youtu.be/JzKny78Eylg?t=148.
When requesting on Vatsim (I have tried twice so far), one time I was approved, saying it was a federal limitation, and the other one gave me a restriction of 270 knots which is hardly high speed. So is this not something we're simulating on Vatsim?

David Hoffman

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Re: High Speed Climb
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2020, 11:23:29 am »
High speed climbs are not in the VATUSA division training policy, so I would not expect controllers to be aware of this.

Matthew Simmons

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Re: High Speed Climb
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2020, 11:37:33 am »
Correct. If there are not plans already, I would recommend adding it in because it's an obvious and easy addition. Doesn't necessarily need to become another "muscle memory" term for Vatsim controllers but if requested, I personally feel as though if they are actually able to approve it, they should know that that is in fact legal.

Ryan Geckler

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Re: High Speed Climb
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2020, 01:49:14 pm »
SoCal approved the speed because they've already declared an emergency, so they pretty much have free reign to keep the aircraft flying.

It's not legal for controllers to approve speeds above 250kts below 10000, but if asked for a "high speed climb", the answer is "approved as requested" because there is abiguity about the request.
Ryan Geckler - GK
Former VATUSA3 | Division Training Director
Minneapolis ARTCC | RW Miami ARTCC

Matthew Simmons

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Re: High Speed Climb
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2020, 11:05:25 pm »
Thanks for the response Ryan, however in the video, the controller clears the aircraft before they call with any sort of emergency. It's immediately after contacting him he is cleared for a high speed climb.

Matthew Kramer

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Re: High Speed Climb
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2020, 11:34:10 pm »
Thanks for the response Ryan, however in the video, the controller clears the aircraft before they call with any sort of emergency. It's immediately after contacting him he is cleared for a high speed climb.

The 7110.65 has no provision for approving an aircraft to exceed 250 knots below 10,000. As Ryan said, pilots and controllers are taking advantage of the ambiguity of the words "high speed climb" and "approved as requested." This is not a clearance to exceed speed limits. However, controllers aren't sky police and only see ground speed.

91.117 permits aircraft to exceed speed limits if the minimum safe speed for any particular operation is greater than the the speed limit. The 7110 has this to say about it:
Quote
14 CFR Section 91.117 permits speeds in excess of
250 knots (288 mph) when so required or recommended in
the airplane flight manual or required by normal military
operating procedures.

91.703 provides an exemption for civil aircraft outside the US (I believe that's 12nm offshore), but mentions you must still comply with certain sections of 91.117 if conditions exist.
Matthew Kramer
ZLA DATM

Rick Rump

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Re: High Speed Climb
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2020, 07:40:28 am »
Quote from: Matthew Kramer link=topic=9174.msg41566#msg41566
91.703 provides an exemption for civil aircraft outside the US (I believe that's 12nm offshore), but mentions you must still comply with certain sections of 91.117 if conditions exist.

That is correct.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2020, 11:53:47 am by Rick Rump »

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Matthew Simmons

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Re: High Speed Climb
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2020, 08:55:26 am »
Thanks for the response all. Helps to clear it up.