KORD Question from a Red-Faced Newbie

[Robert Booker]

Hi All...

I'm an old-dog simulator pilot who has come back to flying with FSX and now Prepar3D and have only made about a half dozen flights on VATSIM.  I'm too old to have ever done the on-line gaming thing as I last flew in the real world in 1985 and am frankly amazed at how nervous I get trying to get things right when flying on VATSIM.  I've certainly made my share of newbie mistakes and I ask patience from those of you fortunate enough to have me in your airspace.

Anyhow, I have had two occasions now flying into KORD where I have struggled to stay ahead of the airplane and the ATC.  Most recently, I ended up too fast on descent and was vectored away from the SID.  Once on altitude and airspeed, the very helpful controller gave me vectors to ILS for Rwy 10L.  While attempting to first aviate and then navigate, I discovered that I did not have RWY 10L in my aircraft FMC database or apparently defined in P3D.  I incorrectly dialed in runway 9L thinking the reason the runway was not defined was due to magnetic precession.  That clearly didn't work and I decided to spare the airspace and the controller any further suffering for my lack of prepar3dness (pun intended) and ended my flight.

This true life (simulated) example of task saturation was quite humbling and I should have stuck it out.

Now that my mea culpa is out of the way, my question for you experienced folk -- should I have simply told the controller, "Unable 10L" and requested vectors to another runway.

If every dose of humility teaches us a lesson, I now know about checking to be sure that the airport I have in my computer is the airport reflected in the current charts before flying into the airspace.

The question for this group is how should I have communicated the issue given this is not a "real world" scenario?  Should I plan to add-on scenery for airports that I am planning to frequent.  I hope to avoid burdening my hardware flight deck with a highly customized version of FSX and P3D to the degree possible..

Thanks in advance for the helpful forum, the community, your patience and advice...

...Robert

[Bradley Grafelman]

I now know about checking to be sure that the airport I have in my computer is the airport reflected in the current charts before flying into the airspace.

I think this brings up a key point in the matter. This is not only a simulated world, but it's numerous disjointed simulated worlds all being rendered by our individual PCs and connected to a single network.

Now, you should certainly try to do your due diligence when it comes to using a product released many years ago and flying into airports having undergone recent major modifications. Having said that, yeah, I also think it should be expected of us controllers (in general - I haven't controlled in ZAU outside of the Oshkosh event) to try to accommodate these "sim-only" type issues as best we can.

My $.02.

[Kenneth Haught]

Brad hit the nail on the head. If you ever find yourself in the "OMG, I don't have XYZ runway that he cleared me too." situation, just advise the controller and we can let you know how to proceed (whether the runway number has merely been changed, or if it's a new runway that you simply can't land on). Most controllers should be able to handle the abnormality without pause, and hey..it's something different in our day maybe!

[Don Desfosse]

Excellent feedback you've received -- these guys hit the nail on the head.  By all means, use "unable".  "I'm sorry, unable" is also great (let's the controller know you're trying, although they shouldn't really need to hear/believe that, we are all human).  And if you say, "Unable 10L -- I'm sorry, I can't find that runway in my FMC", that is a great clue to the controller that you wanted to comply, gave it a shot, but could not because of what was most likely a RW airport configuration change (which, BTW, just happened (and seems to happen a lot) at KORD).

As much of a purist as you are, you'll find that since the RW changes, updated airport information is pretty important, especially during events, and you may find (like I did) that it makes sense to update airports that you frequent, or plan to frequent, or have a major event that you want to participate in.  Just yesterday I flew into 2 different airports that I've never been to, and was surprised that, for the first one, the ILS frequency didn't work (must have been changed in the last few years) and for the second one the runway I was planning to use didn't exist in my FSX.  Since I don't plan to fly to these airports often, I won't bother updating them.  But if I planned to visit them regularly, I sure would.  Your mileage may vary....

Welcome to VATSIM, great to have you on board!

[Bradley Grafelman]

Another example of why it's best to advise the controller early and openly if you're unable to do something or even have concerns that you'll be able to do it safely/successfully...

During low visibility (read: the SoCal low-level marine layer rolling in and swallowing the area), KSAN lands to the east (at least, it does when I'm controlling ) so that the ILS RWY 9 (chart here) can be used. Due to reasons I have yet to research and uncover, the default FSX scenery (and potentially others that cover KSAN) have an incorrect frequency for the ILS.

Just recently, I was vectoring a pilot onto final for that ILS and noticed he never made a turn to intercept it and just blew through it. Fortunately, I'd remember seeing this little gem from our website (link):

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]Caution:
Use 110.9 for the ILS RWY 9 frequency in Flight Simulator.[/quote]After a quick "XYZ123, ILS RWY 9 frequency 110.9, turn right heading 060 to reintercept", he intercepted and descended without issue, albeit a little too close to the FAF for comfort.

Had he spoken up earlier when I gave him the turn to intercept and mentioned "by the way, we're not receiving the localizer yet," we could have gotten him on the right frequency much sooner. It wasn't the pilot's fault he didn't have it - it's just an artifact of a dated flight simulator not being perfect and up-to-date.

[Brad Littlejohn]

Something else to ponder, and it may be worth letting the sector in question handle it (in this case, ZAU).

ZAB had a similar problem back between FS2000 and FS2002, which they handled rather well. There problem was that around that time KPHX only had 2 runways; 7L/25R and 7R/25L, which were located on either side of the terminal.  Sometime between 2000 and 2002, they added a new runway south of 7R/25L, causing everything to be renumbered. That's where they are at today with having 7L/25R and 7R/25L on the south side of the field, with 8/26 on the north side.

The issue there was that FS2002 had scenery that contained the new runway, while FS2000 didn't, and no scenery was available for it (even SimFlyers didn't have an update).

So what ZAB did was in their ATIS, they asked that the pilot checking in on final to indicate which version of MSFS they were using, and if they had updated scenery. If the pilot answered "no" to those questions, they treated it as if they only had the 2 runways, and handled them accordingly. If they had updated scenery or a newer version of MSFS, they treated it as if they had all 3 runways, and handled it accordingly.

The same could apply here. Ask the question in the ATIS, and have the pilot checking in indicate if they have updated scenery. If they don't, treat it as if the 9s/27s are still there, as well as the 14,000ft long 14R/32L is there. If they couldn't handle that, see if the winds favour the 4/22s.

Worse comes to worse, they can always open up 18/36.


Looking at the latest chart from the AF/D, even the most recent scenery is going to be obsolete, as they appear to be building another runway south of the cargo ramp, so there's going to be a 10L/28R, 10C/28C, 10R/28L, followed by the 9s/27s on the north side. So don't feel so bad if you have to pull out "unable"; a lot of pilots are going to be doing that here until scenery gets updated.

BL.

[Bill McCoy]

Don is correct, KORD has undergone a lot of MAJOR RW changes lately!  I tell most Pilots that if you don't like the Runway/Taxiway configuration at O'Hare, just wait 10 minutes and it will change!  The RW you speak of is either 10L, 10, or 9R depending on your scenery.

All of our ZAU Controllers are trained to remember that there are about 17 scenery packages out there, and to TRY and make sure they know what the Pilot is seeing.

If EVER in doubt, please confirm all RW assignments wit ATC and we'll get you to the right spot of turf to land!

[Alden Lebov]

Yes!  I am a controller/Instructor at vZAU myself, and I do my best to teach other students about the ever-changing configurations at KORD.  If you don't have a runway, or a runway in the FMC, simply tell the controller.  We will not get upset. In fact this type of problem happens quite often.  

Simply tell the controller, "we don't have that runway."  He or She will do their very best to get you into the airport.  Some controllers may ask you what type of scenery you have when they first contact you, too.  Just simply reply with, "We are running default FS9 scenery" or "we are using FS Dream Team scenery."

AL

[Dhruv Kalra]

"Expect runway 28R, formerly known as 28, formerly known as 27L. Localizer frequency 111.1"

[James Anthony]

"Expect runway 28R, formerly known as 28, formerly known as 27L. Localizer frequency 111.1"

If anyone is Looking for a Default Update with RW28C, search fsx_kord_rs.zip, on Flightsim.com it has 28C and updated Taxiways, I don't use it because i have FSDT. but I always keep and updated chart when landing at KORD, because I fly there alot, and I mean like 10 times a week...

[Fred Michaels]

I know within ZMA, we have had most of our major fields encounter substantial runway changes over the past several years. While they are becoming less and less, we will have people clearly have old scenery/information for Miami featuring runway designations that are no where near current. As many have said, there is nothing wrong with simply telling ATC "Sir, I don't seem to have 10L information on my plane." Most times, ATC will then recognize you have out of date information and attempt to adjust accordingly.

As some suggested too, most ARTCC websites include information about differences. I know at KTPA, people who utilize older versions of the FS product "Fly Tampa" (that had a major error) end up landing on a taxiway. These days, given massive construction at KFLL, we have had more than a few planes land...into what in IRL would be a crane.

On the flip side however, I know when changes first happen, we attempt to include something in the text ATIS or controller information. For example, at KFLL "Landing Runway 10L (formerly 9L)." However, after it has been out there for a few years, it starts to wain. But if we are trying to land someone on Runway 8L at KMIA, and the pilot doesn't have it, not a problem! There are others to choose from.

A good suggestion I have done (using X-Plane that often runs into these problems) is load the simulator at your destination airport before you connect to the network. Take a look at what you see there. The map, ILS frequencies, etc. Then look at the current chart. Also, be careful with some FMC plugins. I have seen more than once someone have a conflict because a scenery package says X, simulator AIRAC reads X, but the plug-in FMC is showing Y. Knowing this can again help you. Make a note of the differences and it can make it a lot easier.

[Robert Booker]

Thank you all...very helpful insights.

I was not aware of the distinctions between the underlying flight simulation environment, scenery, and navigation updates.  Thanks for the help with additions to the checklists.

See you in your airspace!

...Robert