Check-In Responsibility

Alex Bailey · « **Reply #75 on:** February 10, 2010, 07:46:17 PM »

Quote from: Richard Jenkins

Yep, those developers should do that. Any ideas who? I could quit wasting time reading this drivel.

Someone I was talking to today made an interesting comment. He said "Why do we need divisions?" What if we could just dissect a layer out? What would be the pros and cons. What would stop working?

Divisions and local facilities do most of the leg work for VATSIM. Cut them out, and you might as well save yourself some money and not pay the bills next month because it won't be worth the 10 people you have left on the network. You want to know the reason why so many people resign around VATUSA and in the other divisions? Seagull management.

Richard Jenkins · « **Reply #76 on:** February 10, 2010, 07:51:02 PM »

Quote from: Alex Bailey

Divisions and local facilities do most of the leg work for VATSIM. Cut them out, and you might as well save yourself some money and not pay the bills next month because it won't be worth the 10 people you have left on the network. You want to know the reason why so many people resign around VATUSA and in the other divisions? Seagull management.

No, seriously, the ARTCC's pretty much take care of themselves. Provide them each with an interface to CERT. Have them report directly to one of the 6 regions. We could wipeout something like 24 or 25 divisions and remove a truckload of staff people who could do what they really want to do on VATSIM...control and fly!

Richard Jenkins · « **Reply #77 on:** February 10, 2010, 07:54:26 PM »

I'd also recommend probationary periods for every position. SCrew up in the first 90 days...cya.

Alex Bailey · « **Reply #78 on:** February 10, 2010, 07:54:44 PM »

Quote from: Richard Jenkins

No, seriously, the ARTCC's pretty much take care of themselves. Provide them each with an interface to CERT. Have them report directly to one of the 6 regions. We could wipeout something like 24 or 25 divisions and remove a truckload of staff people who could do what they really want to do on VATSIM...control and fly!

Isn't this an "oh s***" approach? Something happens, email goes to the BoG list, founders and governors swoop in and make a mess, then leave.

Think of the big picture before wiping out such an important group. The problems sits with the completely incohesive group of Founders and the BoG. You're doing a good job, Richard, but until you can bring ALL founders to the table and get some guidance flowing, nothing you do will fix these problems.

Paul Byrne · « **Reply #79 on:** February 10, 2010, 07:57:10 PM »

Actually,

I was just thinking why we need an EC? They've barely done anything and anything they have done has been a complete waste of time. Get rid of the EC and let the divisions work their magic with oversight from the BoG directly and I'd think you'd end up with far less problems on the network .

Cheers!
[edit for silly use of English]

Alex Bailey · « **Reply #80 on:** February 10, 2010, 07:57:50 PM »

Quote from: Paul Byrne

Actually,

I was just thinking why we need an EC? They've never done anything and anything they have done has been a complete waste of time. Get rid of the EC and let the divisions work their magic with oversight from the BoG directly and I'd think you'd end up with far less problems on the network .

Cheers!

Yes!

Luke Kolin · « **Reply #81 on:** February 10, 2010, 07:59:47 PM »

Quote from: Richard Jenkins

Yep, those developers should do that. Any ideas who? I could quit wasting time reading this drivel.

Good question. Do you have any developers who write multi-threaded game servers? I wish I knew something about writing high-performance, low-latency servers so that I could help you. But geez, I've never written any so I have no idea what to do.

I'm puzzled why you're unsure where to find these people. I recall Lefteris telling me that they had all the help they could use and someone like me wasn't needed when he was looking for FSD volunteers. Maybe you should ask him?

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]Someone I was talking to today made an interesting comment. He said "Why do we need divisions?" What if we could just dissect a layer out? What would be the pros and cons. What would stop working? Why does an ARTCC events director need an assistant? Twenty-two of these? So many questions...[/quote]

Paul Byrne's got the right idea. It's amazing that a controller needs to go through about five levels of bureaucracy through the ARTCC, VATUSA Region, VATUSA and VATNA/EC levels to the BoG. But you already knew that. Why not do something about it?

Cheers!

Luke

Richard Jenkins · « **Reply #82 on:** February 10, 2010, 08:00:14 PM »

Quote from: Alex Bailey

Isn't this an "oh s***" approach? Something happens, email goes to the BoG list, founders and governors swoop in and make a mess, then leave.

Think of the big picture before wiping out such an important group. The problems sits with the completely incohesive group of Founders and the BoG. You're doing a good job, Richard, but until you can bring ALL founders to the table and get some guidance flowing, nothing you do will fix these problems.

Are we saying ZLA and the likes couldn't do what they are doing today wtihout VATUSA. If so, why? Could what needs to be done happen at the region level?

Alex Bailey · « **Reply #83 on:** February 10, 2010, 08:04:34 PM »

Quote from: Richard Jenkins

Are we saying ZLA and the likes couldn't do what they are doing today wtihout VATUSA. If so, why? Could what needs to be done happen at the region level?

As I said, the problem rests with the Founders and BoG. Cut out anything below the EC level and your problems will still exist. The problem isn't the amount of assistants to the assistant events coordinator (that's bad too, but not the real problem). The problem is the management of VATSIM doesn't gel, doesn't realize the impact of their decisions or comments, and then wonder why such turbulence exists. Ask the BoG about their back channel mailing list that the Founders can't see. So where, then, does the problem exist?

Fix the top before you mess with the bottom.

Richard Jenkins · « **Reply #84 on:** February 10, 2010, 08:06:18 PM »

Quote from: Richard Jenkins

Are we saying ZLA and the likes couldn't do what they are doing today wtihout VATUSA. If so, why? Could what needs to be done happen at the region level?

Paul might be right. I was looking at it from a reduction of staff point of view. Would be interesting to model it bothways and see what it does.

Luke, I was just looking at the thread in the devs forum about the redo of FSD. They couldn't agree if it needed to be multi-threaded or not! Regardless, I just saw a working version of a new FSD running on a test server. Actually written in Java. That should make you smile.

Andrew Podner · « **Reply #85 on:** February 10, 2010, 08:11:30 PM »

Tyler, you're so far off base, you're not even playing the same sport when it comes to my reasons for leaving.

Luke Kolin · « **Reply #86 on:** February 10, 2010, 08:15:52 PM »

Quote from: Richard Jenkins

Luke, I was just looking at the thread in the devs forum about the redo of FSD. They couldn't agree if it needed to be multi-threaded or not!

Math is hard. Let's go shopping.

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]Regardless, I just saw a working version of a new FSD running on a test server. Actually written in Java. That should make you smile.[/quote]

Good. Then you clearly have the developers you were asking about.

Cheers!

Luke

Richard Jenkins · « **Reply #87 on:** February 10, 2010, 08:18:00 PM »

Quote from: Alex Bailey

As I said, the problem rests with the Founders and BoG. Cut out anything below the EC level and your problems will still exist. The problem isn't the amount of assistants to the assistant events coordinator (that's bad too, but not the real problem). The problem is the management of VATSIM doesn't gel, doesn't realize the impact of their decisions or comments, and then wonder why such turbulence exists. Ask the BoG about their back channel mailing list that the Founders can't see. So where, then, does the problem exist?

Fix the top before you mess with the bottom.

Okay...let me think about this for a second. I was on the BoG for 9 years. I might know something about this list, but I'm a Founder also. Are you saying the BoG is hiding things from the Founders? Show me an email from this list. I find the BoG is keeping secrets....There is going to be a big problem.

Richard Jenkins · « **Reply #88 on:** February 10, 2010, 08:26:14 PM »

Quote from: Luke Kolin

Math is hard. Let's go shopping.

Good. Then you clearly have the developers you were asking about.

Cheers!

Luke

Here's an idea. What about a payware version pilot client. Somewhat like the vroute model. You get the basic thing for free, but if you want extra toys, you pay?

Alex Bailey · « **Reply #89 on:** February 10, 2010, 08:27:55 PM »

Quote from: Richard Jenkins

Okay...let me think about this for a second. I was on the BoG for 9 years. I might know something about this list, but I'm a Founder also. Are you saying the BoG is hiding things from the Founders? Show me an email from this list. I find the BoG is keeping secrets....There is going to be a big problem.

Send me an email/PM if you'd like to hear about it, forum is no place. As for the true issue here, the amount of staff at the division and local level is NOT the reason for all of these issues and shouldn't even be looked at until the upper management fix their problems. VATUSA staff are leaving because of this, and we're talking qualified managers who put their heart into this organization are now leaving. This should send a clear message, and no matter how hard it is to admit the problem and work to fix it - the Founders and BoG must drop the politics and the attitude towards its members and do a better job of calculating decisions and managing the network. You can reject ideas without insulting the well-intentioned VATSIM member who wants to see this place succeed.

I mentioned seagull management above. This is the style of management currently employed by the BoG across many situations. It's an insult to the excellent work being done by division and ARTCC level staff. These guys poor money and time into running their communities and they don't get near the recognition that they deserve. To be completely honest, as VATUSA1 I never did thank them enough or recognize their efforts as best as I could, but through all of the arguments and discussions on policy each one of them has the best interest of VATSIM at heart. Andrew does, Jason does, Dave Klain does - everyone does.