Sector

[Brandon Roberts]

Hey guys. Im new to this at VATSIM and I cant quiet find the place to download a Sector for VRC to observe ATC. Preferably ATL... Can you guys please help me out? thank you

[Daniel Hawton]

Hey guys. Im new to this at VATSIM and I cant quiet find the place to download a Sector for VRC to observe ATC. Preferably ATL... Can you guys please help me out? thank you

Some ARTCCs, like ZTL, do not have the sector files where people who aren't visitors or home controllers can get them.  Check the ARTCC's website to see if you can download them.  Or join an ARTCC and you'll get some help from an instructor or mentor setting up VRC.

[Harold Rutila]

Some ARTCCs, like ZTL, do not have the sector files where people who aren't visitors or home controllers can get them.  Check the ARTCC's website to see if you can download them.  Or join an ARTCC and you'll get some help from an instructor or mentor setting up VRC.

Why would that be?

[Arthur Heiser]

Why would that be?

Why does it matter?

[Kenneth Haught]

Hey guys. Im new to this at VATSIM and I cant quiet find the place to download a Sector for VRC to observe ATC. Preferably ATL... Can you guys please help me out? thank you

Why does it matter?

I would guess it was a question as to why any ARTCC would choose to lock down their files, and therefore potentially discourage new and/or old members from joining the airspace. Most people use the files to get a feel for what to expect in an ARTCC before they join, and with new members that is even more so. Also VATUSA/VATSIM highly encouraged new members to download the files for areas they are thinking about joining. But I guess that they are not interested in new members or generating interest from others on the network that could be potential visitors or transferring members.

Cheers!

[Andrew Wolcott]

I would guess it was a question as to why any ARTCC would choose to lock down their files, and therefore potentially discourage new and/or old members from joining the airspace. Most people use the files to get a feel for what to expect in an ARTCC before they join, and with new members that is even more so. Also VATUSA/VATSIM highly encouraged new members to download the files for areas they are thinking about joining. But I guess that they are not interested in new members or generating interest from others on the network that could be potential visitors or transferring members.

Cheers!

For the record,

The reason vZTL 'locks down' it's files is because at the request of the FAA we are not supposed to provide public access to information and documents we received from them through Freedom Of Information Act requests (FOIA).

It's stupid I know, and actually we think our files may actually be exposed to the world, just google it. But, as the FAA has been very accomodating to us by providing real world .DAT files for Radar Video Maps, SOPs, LOAs, Facility Orders etc, we have to try and appease their request that the information be limited as much as possible to VATSIM members.

[Brian Pryor]

For the record,

The reason vZTL 'locks down' it's files is because at the request of the FAA we are not supposed to provide public access to information and documents we received from them through Freedom Of Information Act requests (FOIA).

It's stupid I know, and actually we think our files may actually be exposed to the world, just google it. But, as the FAA has been very accomodating to us by providing real world .DAT files for Radar Video Maps, SOPs, LOAs, Facility Orders etc, we have to try and appease their request that the information be limited as much as possible to VATSIM members.

Interesting, having done dozens of FOIA requests for work such a stipulation isn't exactly standard, we rebroadcast FOIA'd audio, text, etc. on a regular basis.

[Andrew Wolcott]

Interesting, having done dozens of FOIA requests for work such a stipulation isn't exactly standard, we rebroadcast FOIA'd audio, text, etc. on a regular basis.

Are you a member of the media or press corps?

Or are you speaking of 'work' as info obtained and used on VATSIM? We have been explicit with the FAA of what our use of the information was for (VATSIM). We got some laughs along the way and even were called "Badgering Civilians"

But in the end, out of "yeah we'll do that for you" we removed tons of info that may or may not be considered sensitive and 'try' to limit the availability of the files to VATSIM members, although try is subjective....

[Brian Pryor]

Yup I am a member of the news media, but FOIA doesn't specifically pertain to just the media it's an act that provides the ability for any citizen to obtain the info.

If you got it thru FOIA it's legal to distribute and any redaction would take place prior to you receiving the data. They wouldn't give the data out and ask you to use the black marker, oh wow I wish they did , it would make my job 10x easier

I would talk with David J (USA8) about CoR 6.03 though it is a concern that restrictions may conflict with that.

[Chris McGee]

I would assume if it can not be released to the public then it would be "classified" and not able to be distributed to anyone. There are other ARTCC that lock down their files not just ZTL.

[Andrew Wolcott]

I would assume if it can not be released to the public then it would be "classified" and not able to be distributed to anyone. There are other ARTCC that lock down their files not just ZTL.

I'll take a look at the CoR. In as much as we have not once signed anything with the FAA (merely a gentleman's agreement so to speak) and thus could not be help in violation of a 'contract' I personally am not sure why our files couldn't be available 'publicly.'

I personally do not have a problem with it and agree that if it came to me with magic marker all over it then I should be able to share it. What amazes me though, and why myself and our FE were labeled as badgering civilians, is when we contacted NATCA regarding appendicies which were not sent with the original information received. The apendicies had the RVM, MVA, etc . diagrams in them, but all of the information pertaining to the local ANG unit about Afterburner Functional Check Flights and handling of Military flights on IR017 were not blacked out. !??!?!?!?!?!?        

The RVM data we obtained, along with some map diagrams etc, had the locations of Nuclear Powerplants amongst other things, and that stuff we removed as it doesn't pertain to VATSIM.

But in the long run, I agree that if it was released through FOIA, then it's open game.

[Andrew Wolcott]

I might also clarify my statement that the restriction is not restricting VATSIM members from obtaining the info. I meant that to be the info is restricted to the members of VATSIM, and as such we're not trying to put it out in the public's face.

I did read §6.03 Prohibited Conduct of the CoR. I see where we may possibly be conflicting with Part A in regards to "...violate the legal rights...of other members or individuals logged on to the VATSIM.net network;" but I am not 100% sure if we are really violating a person's legal right to info obtained through FOIA.

The issue is definately very interesting and I believe further guidance would be appreciated by many. But at what point do we make everything public? Imagine the Facility Engineer who works day and night writing sector files from scratch. Does the person creating the sector files have intellectual property rights on said files? Somewhere along the line I was told 'no.' However, the developers of Client software do, and as such can pull the rights (as I understand it) given to VATSIM for it's use.

To throw some fuel on this discussion though, this is from the VATSIM User Agreement, the history of which may be found in Appendix C, 1.1 of the VATSIM CoR: "Files downloaded may be subject to posted limitations on usage, reproduction, and/or dissemination, and you are responsible for adhering to such limitations if you download them."

Interesting...

[Bruce Clingan]

All information obtained through a FOIA request is non-classified and can be disseminated publicly.  That the FAA would give it to you through FOIA and say you could only disseminate it a certain way just doesn't make sense.  Now if it was obtained through some sort of back door agreement with FAA employees and they made that request that is another story.  My understanding regarding FAA documents and FOIA is that they will release any non-current information.  Meaning that if they create a new SOP they will release the old one through FOIA, I have also heard that any information which would appear in both the new and the old documents would be blacked out.  The jist of FOIA is that if they choose not to disclose they information they have to give you the exemption to FOIA they used to restrict the request.

As for the sector files and intellectual property rights that is a fine line, but I believe personally that we as ARTCCs have the responsibility to provide the minimum operating information to all members of the network.  Sector files are part of that to me.  As a former FE who spent "day and night" working on the files; if I didn't want it released publicly so everyone could use it then I am not sure why I was doing it.  What benefit could be obtained by a sector file outside of VATSIM?  Personally, I know that I had lines of code in my files where I could tell if it was my file if a competing network was using my file, which was an issue at one point in time, there were lines of code and copyright information which made that a legal violation and gave me the necessary means to prove that the information was stolen.  That being said, any theft of the information may have had the possibility of hurting VATSIM but not me personally.

[Richard Jenkins]

So we're making deals with the FAA? Be nice if someone would let me in on it since my ass is ultimately on the line when it comes to VATSIM.

[Kenneth Haught]

 Welcome to the party Richard! So far the gist is why ZTL has their files a bit more locked down than (some) other ARTCC's, and it looks like it may be due to some bad info at some point in the past. No deals made yet, but I want to know when we can start having FAA Engineers do our files for us!