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Daniel Hawton

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« on: September 07, 2010, 07:55:49 pm »
At Jacksonville, we are trying to expand our coverage to provide you with service as you fly around Jacksonville, Daytona or Orlando.  Previously, the FAA attempted to separate the Orlando TRACON from Orlando Tower and combine Orlando, Daytona, Tampa and Jacksonville TRACONs into one giant "Central Florida TRACON".  This, however, was stopped by NATCA and resulted in only the TRACON and Tower separations and the southern shelf of Daytona Approach near Melbourne and Space Coast becoming part of Orlando.

At Jacksonville, we decided to create this dream.. with the exception of Tampa because that is Miami's airspace.  So, if you are flying out of Jacksonville and do not see JAX_APP, JAX_N_APP or JAX_S_APP... look for F11_J_APP.  F11_J_APP is the primary sector covering Jacksonville, Daytona and Orlando areas.  If F11_J_APP and F11_O_APP are on, F11_O controls Ocala, Gainesville, Orlando area, and Melbourne airports while F11_J_APP controls Daytona, Craig, and Jacksonville area airports.

This new airspace spans approximately 190 nautical miles north to south, and 130 nautical miles east to west of freshly controlled airspace.  The majority of the airspace is SFC to 10,000 feet, but areas over Orlando are up to 16,000 and over Jacksonville up to 15,000 feet.

If you have any questions, feel free to reply here!

The radio call sign is "Central Florida Approach" for arriving aircraft and "Central Florida Departure" for departures.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2010, 07:59:30 pm by Daniel Hawton »
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Daniel Hawton

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« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2010, 08:12:22 pm »
Should also add that F11_J_APP will cover Orlando in the absence of F11_O_APP.. so look for JAX_APP, JAX_N_APP or JAX_S_APP, then F11_J_APP.. then center. If in Orlando, look for MCO_E_APP, MCO_W_APP, or F11_O_APP .. lastly F11_J_APP.. then center.
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Harold Rutila

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« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2010, 08:16:20 pm »
Looking at this from a pilot's perspective, this is a confusing policy.

1.) Is "F11" depicted correctly on ServInfo, VATSpy, VATSIM Who's Online, etc? That in and of itself may make it look as though there are no approach services provided anywhere.

2.) Is there really any basis for the combination except for attempting to implement a procedure that was never implemented at all, but may have looked good on paper? We've tried a lot of things in ZDV that require some pilot education, such as Ramp Control, but in reality, hardly anyone wants to take the time to read in-depth about these procedures. This one is really out of the ordinary in that it isn't remotely close to a real world procedure whatsoever, from the F11 to the Central Florida Approach callsign.

3.) What happens when you "sectorize" for events? Do all callsigns revert to their real world ones, or is "Central Florida Approach" the callsign for all satellite/primary airport approach positions? If it's not, then you're kind of violating the basics of a TRACON consolidation: When D01 (Denver) TRACON took over PUB and GJT, the callsigns for PUB_APP and GJT_APP became "Denver Approach," but on paper, the Pueblo Sector and Grand Junction Sector respectively. Likewise the SOCAL, NORCAL, and Potomac TRACON consolidations feature the same callsign for all positions.

From an administrative standpoint:
1.) Why isn't it more effective to allow your students to train on the major approach facilities (as far as I'm aware from looking at your site, MCO is the only major TRACON) and then just move them up to center, where they can provide the VATSIM-standard, tier-based services to all of those TRACONs in addition to the en-route airspace? Is there some sort of requirement to certify on F11 before being certified on Center? If there is, then you might be in violation of the GRP.

I don't like to be such a heavy critic, and I'm all for new ideas, but I don't know that this one will serve the purpose that you all intend.

Daniel Hawton

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« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2010, 09:07:57 pm »
Quote from: Harold Rutila
Looking at this from a pilot's perspective, this is a confusing policy.

1.) Is "F11" depicted correctly on ServInfo, VATSpy, VATSIM Who's Online, etc? That in and of itself may make it look as though there are no approach services provided anywhere.

Most mapping tools seem to place Approaches based upon where their primary visibility point is located. (and by most, I mean Vattastic, vatview, and ServInfo being the ones I checked)  Not too sure about VATSpy because I have had zero luck getting the thing to fully function, but that is how I have found ServInfo and several others to work.

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]2.) Is there really any basis for the combination except for attempting to implement a procedure that was never implemented at all, but may have looked good on paper? We've tried a lot of things in ZDV that require some pilot education, such as Ramp Control, but in reality, hardly anyone wants to take the time to read in-depth about these procedures. This one is really out of the ordinary in that it isn't remotely close to a real world procedure whatsoever, from the F11 to the Central Florida Approach callsign.[/quote]

This is beyond paper, this was actually IN PROGRESS but was halted by NATCA because it was also a slight downsizing amongst other "issues".  Not much "education" needs to happen here, a contact me is good enough to get the pilot on frequency.. even working a regular approach, I find myself having to send contact me's to pilots because they "didn't see me on".

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]3.) What happens when you "sectorize" for events? Do all callsigns revert to their real world ones, or is "Central Florida Approach" the callsign for all satellite/primary airport approach positions? If it's not, then you're kind of violating the basics of a TRACON consolidation: When D01 (Denver) TRACON took over PUB and GJT, the callsigns for PUB_APP and GJT_APP became "Denver Approach," but on paper, the Pueblo Sector and Grand Junction Sector respectively. Likewise the SOCAL, NORCAL, and Potomac TRACON consolidations feature the same callsign for all positions.[/quote]

The whole purpose behind Central Florida Approach is to offer services to others.  Having a call sign of Orlando Approach with this "Consolidation" will be far more confusing when Jacksonville Approach is active.  During events, Central FL App can still handle the airspace with normal sectorization occuring in the appropriate areas.  This is meant mainly for non-peak times to broaden the expanses of the approach controller. This position is not meant for event staffing, as centers are usually up for events where as centers aren't up otherwise as often as approach.
 
[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]From an administrative standpoint:
1.) Why isn't it more effective to allow your students to train on the major approach facilities (as far as I'm aware from looking at your site, MCO is the only major TRACON) and then just move them up to center, where they can provide the VATSIM-standard, tier-based services to all of those TRACONs in addition to the en-route airspace? Is there some sort of requirement to certify on F11 before being certified on Center? If there is, then you might be in violation of the GRP.[/quote]

There is only 1 major airport/airspace in ZJX, so, it has nothing to do with additional training.  Once you have Major Approach, you can staff MCO and F11.. no additional training required as you already got it between minor (working JAX) and major (working MCO).  I know all about the GRP, and designed F11 because we have more Approach controllers than Center or people Center qualified that enjoy working Approach more.  As far as the training on center thing, training is slower in our ARTCC than it used to be because our levels of training staff have dropped as seems the trend around VATUSA.  So, this way there is more "reward" for picking up major approach.

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]I don't like to be such a heavy critic, and I'm all for new ideas, but I don't know that this one will serve the purpose that you all intend.[/quote]

And while I appreciate criticism, this is, in the end a game.. we are trying to provide better and more services to pilots and have an environment we all can enjoy.  There's nothing "extra" required of controllers to staff it besides remembering the call sign, frequency and position name.  Nothing extra required of pilots besides just looking to see who is on using their pilot client.  This way, aircraft going from Miami to Daytona can actually get services all the way to Daytona versus descent to about 5000 and right about the point they are supposed to get vectors to final are told radar services terminated.

And staffing of F11 versus MCO, DAB and JAX is at the discretion of the controller.. it's more choice for the controller on what they want to do.  All that is required is certification on major and minor approach.  Even the SOPs for F11 tell you to refer to the local TRACON SOPs and basically define the airspace purpose, frequencies and boundaries.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2010, 09:10:39 pm by Daniel Hawton »
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Daniel Hawton

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« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2010, 09:15:02 pm »
Oh, and yes, it is recorded in VATSIM's Who's Online.. as it appears to not have any restrictions on callsigns it logs.  IE, log in as a mistyped/made up name.. then go and check it out.. you'll see it listed.
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Harold Rutila

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« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2010, 10:12:46 pm »
Well, it is surely quite an interesting concept. Thanks for answering those questions; they did clear up what I was wondering. Good luck with this whole thing.

J. Jason Vodnansky

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« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2010, 05:02:12 pm »
Given that ZJX has no airport designated as a MAJOR, and given that GRP requires "top-down" service of its controllers, how does this increase the services provided to pilots?

I mean, since controllers controlling at the Center level are required to provide service into/out of all airports, is this going to increase service?

I am not against the idea, just trying to understand...

Jason Vodnansky

AJ Heiser

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« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2010, 05:27:03 pm »
Quote from: Daniel Hawton
Most mapping tools seem to place Approaches based upon where their primary visibility point is located. (and by most, I mean Vattastic, vatview, and ServInfo being the ones I checked)  Not too sure about VATSpy because I have had zero luck getting the thing to fully function, but that is how I have found ServInfo and several others to work.
Incorrect. None of the programs listed above display F11 callsigns. Furthermore, they don't place Approaches based on primary vis point.
AJ Heiser
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Los Angeles ARTCC
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Daniel Hawton

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« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2010, 08:12:56 pm »
Quote from: AJ Heiser
Incorrect. None of the programs listed above display F11 callsigns. Furthermore, they don't place Approaches based on primary vis point.

Not fully correct, when I was on F11, I was fully displayed utilizing Vatview and Vattastic.  When I move my primary visibility point, on vatview, it moves too.  I placed it over at Pensacola for testing, and a few minutes later, my "approach ring" was over Pensacola instead of Orlando on vatview.  This, to me, would be the smarter way to do it as opposed to a giant database because approaches are more likely to change than center sectors.  When looking through Vatspy and ServInfo's directories, I find the center boundaries, but nothing for TRACONs. So, meh.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2010, 08:14:07 pm by Daniel Hawton »
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AJ Heiser

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« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2010, 08:15:46 pm »
Quote from: Daniel Hawton
Not fully correct, when I was on F11, I was fully displayed utilizing Vatview and Vattastic.  When I move my primary visibility point, on vatview, it moves too.  I placed it over at Pensacola for testing, and a few minutes later, my "approach ring" was over Pensacola instead of Orlando on vatview.  This, to me, would be the smarter way to do it as opposed to a giant database because approaches are more likely to change than center sectors.  When looking through Vatspy and ServInfo's directories, I find the center boundaries, but nothing for TRACONs. So, meh.
I have never seen this before. Could you please post a screenshot of you on as F11 and displayed on the map?
AJ Heiser
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Los Angeles ARTCC
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Daniel Hawton

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« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2010, 09:36:01 pm »
Quote from: AJ Heiser
I have never seen this before. Could you please post a screenshot of you on as F11 and displayed on the map?

Login as anything you want and try it yourself.  "Accidentally" typo MIA_APP and set your visibility point over Tampa.  You'll see it yourself.
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Andrew Wolcott

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« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2010, 10:30:27 pm »
Question regarding TPA.

I have known for years that ZJX 'owns' Orlando, and ZMA 'owns' TPA.

I have thought it might be in the best interest of both ARTCC's to mutually share one, or both of these airspaces so that say if MIA Center is online, but JAX is not, that MIA would 'own' MCO.

A simple letter of agreement and a mutual training program in regards to TPA and MCO could go a long way to providing more ATC coverage for pilots.

As an example,

MCO is owned by ZJX, but when JAX_CTR is not open, the airspace is released to MIA_CTR.

TPA is owned by ZMA, but when MIA_CTR is not open, the airspace is released to JAX_CTR.

Of course some other issues would have to be worked out such as S3s being allowed to work the airspace, or perhaps it could be limited to C1s only who are Center Certed at their respective facility, and given special training to work the released airspace.

Thoughts?
Andrew Wolcott
   Minneapolis ARTCC - FE
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AJ Heiser

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« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2010, 10:35:34 pm »
That's been tried before, and was discontinued.
AJ Heiser
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Andrew Wolcott

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« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2010, 01:44:20 am »
Quote from: AJ Heiser
That's been tried before, and was discontinued.

I assume it didn't work out too well then?

Best laid plans...  
Andrew Wolcott
   Minneapolis ARTCC - FE
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Tom Seeley

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« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2010, 02:44:58 am »
It worked fine, but it was canceled by the DD at the time.
"Ownership" wasn't involved, but certified controllers of each ARTCC could provide services in the absence of the other.
Tom Seeley
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