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J Jason Vodnansky

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« on: September 14, 2010, 04:32:35 PM »
As I understand it, upon the release of GRP v2, LCTP airports no longer exist.  Is this a correct statement?

Thanks,
Jason Vodnansky

Dhruv Kalra

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« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2010, 05:34:44 PM »
If I answer that question with a 'yes', what allegations from you will that answer subsequently spark...?

Gary Millsaps

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« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2010, 06:22:51 PM »
Jason,

While I cannot vouch for your understanding and therefore cannot speak to the inherent accuracy of your question, I can unequivocally say the LCTP program and the facilities designated as such are a thing of the past.

I just couldn't resist...  

J Jason Vodnansky

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« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2010, 07:12:04 PM »
 Well said!


On the topic of the thread, thanks, that is what I thought too.

It seems as though at least one VATUSA facility is unaware of that fact...  

Jason Vodnansky

Gary Millsaps

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« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2010, 07:14:23 PM »
Quote from: J. Jason Vodnansky
It seems as though at least one VATUSA facility is unaware of that fact...
A PM on this would be appreciated...

J Jason Vodnansky

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« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2010, 07:16:03 PM »
You will have it shortly...

JV

Logan Gloss

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« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2010, 08:42:52 PM »
Quote from: J. Jason Vodnansky
You will have it shortly...

JV

Gary,

Plan on another email from me regarding this to. I would prefer that any other allegations that come up would be emailed to Gary, Roger, and I as I've just spent the last 4 days dealing with rumors that were found only to be rumors. But it seems a certain someone it trying to pick a fight again, sorry I don't play these games.

Andrew Wolcott

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« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2010, 04:52:13 PM »
Quote from: Logan Gloss
Gary,

Plan on another email from me regarding this to. I would prefer that any other allegations that come up would be emailed to Gary, Roger, and I as I've just spent the last 4 days dealing with rumors that were found only to be rumors. But it seems a certain someone it trying to pick a fight again, sorry I don't play these games.

Not to throw fire on this subject, but here is my opinion.

Mr. Vodnansky here seems to like bashing people publicly even if it is in the form of asking a 'question' and/or without naming names.

I have read numerous other posts from him that strikes me as being somewhat hostile towards other members of VATUSA or VATSIM in general. At the same time I will say that there are some remarks which Mr. Vodnansky has made in the past about the enforcement and/or existence of written policies within VATUSA and VATSIM that I do agree with.

However, I do not believe matters such as these should creep their way onto the boards.

If you have a specific question that relates to someone violating any VATSIM or VATUSA policy then this should be address directly and discretely through email with a VATUSA Staff Member, such as the DCRM. Nothing wrong with due diligence, however it should be practiced with an appreciation for being respectful and discrete.

Let this not become a tattle-tale forum board. Please.

Best to all,

Andrew

Gary Millsaps

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« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2010, 06:13:43 PM »
Quote from: Andrew Wolcott
Not to throw fire on this subject, but here is my opinion.

Mr. Vodnansky here seems to like bashing people publicly even if it is in the form of asking a 'question' and/or without naming names.

I have read numerous other posts from him that strikes me as being somewhat hostile towards other members of VATUSA or VATSIM in general. At the same time I will say that there are some remarks which Mr. Vodnansky has made in the past about the enforcement and/or existence of written policies within VATUSA and VATSIM that I do agree with.

However, I do not believe matters such as these should creep their way onto the boards.

If you have a specific question that relates to someone violating any VATSIM or VATUSA policy then this should be address directly and discretely through email with a VATUSA Staff Member, such as the DCRM. Nothing wrong with due diligence, however it should be practiced with an appreciation for being respectful and discrete.

Let this not become a tattle-tale forum board. Please.

Best to all,

Andrew

Couldn't have said it any better than this!!! Thank you Andrew!

If you just can't seem to help yourself, carefully click the logout button and find something else to occupy your time...plow the south 40...take a nap...wash the windows...go to the zoo....whatever!!!



J Jason Vodnansky

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« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2010, 07:57:27 PM »
Can this be brought up through DCRM?  If so, where can I find the process?

Thanks,
JV
« Last Edit: September 15, 2010, 07:58:08 PM by J. Jason Vodnansky »

J Jason Vodnansky

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« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2010, 08:10:16 PM »
Quote from: Andrew Wolcott
Not to throw fire on this subject, but here is my opinion.

Mr. Vodnansky here seems to like bashing people publicly even if it is in the form of asking a 'question' and/or without naming names.

I have read numerous other posts from him that strikes me as being somewhat hostile towards other members of VATUSA or VATSIM in general. At the same time I will say that there are some remarks which Mr. Vodnansky has made in the past about the enforcement and/or existence of written policies within VATUSA and VATSIM that I do agree with.

However, I do not believe matters such as these should creep their way onto the boards.

If you have a specific question that relates to someone violating any VATSIM or VATUSA policy then this should be address directly and discretely through email with a VATUSA Staff Member, such as the DCRM. Nothing wrong with due diligence, however it should be practiced with an appreciation for being respectful and discrete.

Let this not become a tattle-tale forum board. Please.

Best to all,

Andrew

Andrew,

In all seriousness I thought I WAS being respectful and discrete by NOT naming names in the public board.  Yet still calling attention to the problem.

Students continue to be mistreated on this network, and held to standards that are completely unreasonable.  I find this stuff by reading facility's policies.  Something each facility WANTS a person to do.  I find, what I BELIEVE to be "conflicts" based on my understanding of a subject.  So I then ask the question...

If my understanding is incorrect, then there is no point in asking the follow up question.  Perhaps I had misunderstood a rule, and then the answer would clarify MY understanding.  A logical process, no?  Why should I condemn someone in public, and tell them they are wrong if I have an inaccurate understanding of the rule myself...

Thanks for the thoughts, but I have some reading to do, and more questions to ask.  If the DCRM process is open to this kind of stuff, which is never was before, then I will gladly take it up in that direction.

JV

Dhruv Kalra

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« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2010, 08:43:19 PM »
As a staff member at the facility in question, I feel I need to address some of Jason's comments and put a stop to the allegations that he has brought against us both here and on the VATSIM Forums.

Jason, prior to making any more allegations against ZMP as a facility and the procedures to which we hold ourselves, I suggest you re-read those SOPs to comprehension, something that countless students within our facility have done without complaint.

That specific facility SOP was approved by our ATD prior to its publication on our website. Indeed, the first page and introductory paragraph explicitly states that the SOP is designed for high-traffic situations and shall not be a substitute for good controller judgement in the absence of traffic levels that justify its use.

Regarding ground metering and SWAP routes, VATUSA has conducted an officially sanctioned comprehensive traffic management course over the past 4 months, in which two of our facility members have been enrolled. The purpose of that course has been to increase awareness and proficiency in applying various FAA traffic management initiatives, INCLUDING SWAP routes, to the network. Feel free to contact Alex Evins at ZNY or the VATUSA staff if you feel this is going against the spirit of the network. Since I have yet to see a complaint on your part about ZNY's Operational Information System regarding the VATUSA NAS or their spearheading of this Traffic Management Training Course, I can only conclude that either you are uninformed on this matter, or simply selectively targeting ZMP out of convenience, malice, or both.

I'm curious as to your interpretation of airports that "CANNOT be staffed by an otherwise appropriately rated controller". Our facility requires a KMSP tower certification prior to starting M98 TRACON training as KMSP is our major field. Until such a certification is complete, a controller cannot provide top-down service as MSP_APP and therefore is unable to work the position in compliance with the GRP. At NO point during our training do we instruct students to terminate services at a TRACON boundary. If a pilot is executing an instrument approach procedure to a Class D airport at a time outside that airport's hours of operation without the tower staffed, then yes a frequency change is given and we advise that the pilot report an IFR cancellation, a policy, to the extent of my knowledge, that is echoed by a majority of the ARTCCs within VATUSA. Unless you have specific examples to the contrary, I suggest you keep such allegations to yourself.

Regarding 'letting the students get on and control', that's exactly what we do. We simply prefer that our controllers be prepared to handle a high level of traffic should it occur, and I have been informed by more than one student following a busy event how appreciative they are of this philosophy.

Allow me to close with the following. You are not now, nor at any point have been a member of ZMP. Thus, none of our policies should directly affect your enjoyment of this network. At no point has one of our controllers used our policies or procedures as a crutch to deny services to a pilot, thus I fail to see how our SOPs are causing you any anguish or inconvenience.

My inbox remains open to any SPECIFIC grievances you may have, rather than simply blasting rhetoric about the philosophy in which ZMP's staff chooses to conduct operations within our facility.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2010, 08:44:12 PM by Dhruv Kalra »

Brian Pryor

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« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2010, 08:54:40 PM »
For a DCRM to become involved it has to be submitted by a supervisor and the issue must be a CoR/CoC/UA violation and be deemed as a serious issue.

Brian Pryor

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« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2010, 09:14:51 PM »
I don't think Jason has 'outed' the facility he has concerns with.

Doing my own research I found another VATUSA ARTCC besides ZMP that seems to conflict in regards to the now defunct LCTP Program.

I've emailed the ATD and Gary with the info and will let them handle it.

As an ATM this discussion and the others have prompted me to proactively scrub over the policies in place at my facility to make sure they align with GRP revisions.

Harold Rutila

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« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2010, 10:05:42 PM »
Let's keep in mind that neither VATUSA nor VATNA came out with anything in writing, to my knowledge, that explicitly stated "LCTP is no more." I was a TA when GRP2 came out, and I adjusted our program according to what I could observe in the document and from the VATSIM Forums. Most of us found that out about the lack of LCTP on our own and submitted our LCTPs to be considered for majors (many of those requests are still in "pending" status, btw ). Many may be under the assumption that VATUSA will be publishing their own version of the GRP, as was done in GRP1 (and hence the LCTP program) and suggested by Alex in our staff forum way back when, but it's important to note that this will not be the case.

July 21, 2009 (granted over a year ago, but around the time of v2 implementation):
http://forum.vatusa.net/index.php?showtopic=1097 (for those who can see it)
[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]Although VATUSA is currently in the middle of policy revision and updates to our Ratings Guidelines...[/quote]
Then we went with an interim USA1 for a while, and I think this fell by the wayside.

I'm not trying to spark a debate or anything; I'm just providing suggestions about where some of the LCTP confusion may have stemmed from.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2010, 10:06:12 PM by Harold Rutila »