LCTP Airports

[Dhruv Kalra]

Doing my own research I found another VATUSA ARTCC besides ZMP that seems to conflict in regards to the now defunct LCTP Program.

I'm curious as to where you find ZMP in conflict re: LCTPs. Our sole major rating field is KMSP, and is reflected as such on our controller roster and all policy documents.

[Brian Pryor]

I'm curious as to where you find ZMP in conflict re: LCTPs. Our sole major rating field is KMSP, and is reflected as such on our controller roster and all policy documents.

http://www.minniecenter.org/docs/vZMP_ATCSOP_rev5a.pdf

Section 4.1/4.2 lists KRST as being classified as an LCTP facility. To which Gary above mentions is a defunct program.

I can unequivocally say the LCTP program and the facilities designated as such are a thing of the past.

I stand by my earlier statement to say that all facilities could use a good scrub of their policies to ensure everything is "up to code". A bit of spring cleaning if you will.

[Tim Aaron]

I'm curious as to where you find ZMP in conflict re: LCTPs. Our sole major rating field is KMSP, and is reflected as such on our controller roster and all policy documents.

After reading this whole thread i still don't get why the post was put up in the first place. This is one of the first times i have been on forums in over 4 years and i still see nothing has changed. So we are saying that LCTP airports in ARTCC's are now invalid? What a waste of the last three years.

I still see simple things are for simple minds and whatever comes out for an update i guess i have to follow it. Even if it is valid in the real world or not. People have to start making smart decisions because I haven't seen any in the last half decade. VATUSA forums are a waste of time, you guys have to figure it out by actually meeting in a Teamspeak because its been the same way forever. Im trying to understand why the LCTP airports are now invalid but i haven't seen one post why. It is just a waste of time I think if we have to keep updating everything and saying its invalid when i haven't heard or seen a problem with it until now. All i see is problem this problem that and don't see what the real problem is. If anyone can tell me what the problem is then feel free to reply.

[Dhruv Kalra]

http://www.minniecenter.org/docs/vZMP_ATCSOP_rev5a.pdf

Section 4.1/4.2 lists KRST as being classified as an LCTP facility. To which Gary above mentions is a defunct program.

I stand by my earlier statement to say that all facilities could use a good scrub of their policies to ensure everything is "up to code". A bit of spring cleaning if you will.

Guilty as charged. You'll notice that the publication date of that document is Feb 2, 2009, prior to the release of GRP2.

Revisions to the document in question are forthcoming and while the SOP may still indicate as such, the LCTP rating is not enforced, nor has it been done so since the publication of GRP2.

[Brian Pryor]

I understand that Dhruv hence my statement about all facilities checking their documents for meeting current standards.

It's one of the things i've done in the first couple of weeks since I became ATM of the facility and i've got a few revisions we're re-working and will send up to the ATD for approval.

I get while you guys aren't enforcing the LCTP , it's still listed as the letter of the law per se and a student coming in who reads the SOP (although 197 pages is an eye strain!) may interpret it as the current policy leading to confusion.

Jason's motives while they may seem sinister always seem to be on keeping the left hand doing the same as the right hand, by pointing out inconsistencies it evokes change and updates.  

[Tim Aaron]

So i get it now the whole thread is about outdated ATC SOPS, how many other ARTCC's have the same issue. We have an SOP thats 5 times longer than anyone else. Its shouldn't be people's business from other ARTCC's to come and say we did something wrong when we really didn't. I'm not going to go (for example not pointing a finger) and say ZTL has outdated SOP or something in it isn't right. That is called snitching and just being ridiculous. The SOP was before GRP2 so in reality we are being called out for a outdated SOP. Congratulations, really i applaud your efforts for keeping an eye on us. If your going to do something like that, there is no need to post it over in a forum that has been the same way for years, full of never ending threads. You have a problem with this post you send an email to me personally at mastersmurf07@yahoo.com and we can talk about it.
 

[Brian Pryor]

So i get it now the whole thread is about outdated ATC SOPS, how many other ARTCC's have the same issue. We have an SOP thats 5 times longer than anyone else. Its shouldn't be people's business from other ARTCC's to come and say we did something wrong when we really didn't. I'm not going to go (for example not pointing a finger) and say ZTL has outdated SOP or something in it isn't right. That is called snitching and just being ridiculous. The SOP was before GRP2 so in reality we are being called out for a outdated SOP. Congratulations, really i applaud your efforts for keeping an eye on us. If your going to do something like that, there is no need to post it over in a forum that has been the same way for years, full of never ending threads. You have a problem with this post you send an email to me personally at mastersmurf07@yahoo.com and we can talk about it.

This is likely my last reply to this post.

Looking back the question was raised specifically about the policy in general with no ARTCC named. ZMP took it upon itself to challenge Jason in an open forum and 'out' themselves. Obviously it became an argument between the two and in my attempt to point out this is not limited to them it's snowballed.

That's why I am not disclosing the facility I found with an oudated policy and have sent it in private to the ATD and Gary. Now if that facility becomes upset and 'outs' themselves then that is their problem and not mine as i'm protecting their identity from becoming a public issue.

The ATD's are ultimately responsible for ensuring their facilities are 'up to code', it's not my place to do their job BUT I feel it's prudent for me as a tenured VATSIM member if I notice an issue to notify the appropriate ATD of the facility. It's then up to them to decide what sort of action if any is needed.

I myself don't spend my free time hunting down facility SOP's and policies for 'violations' and only became curious when this topic was brought to light and ZMP outed itself. When asked to post the specific example, I did.

Part of the job description as i've understood it for ATM's to manage their facilities. GRP's been out for long enough for each facilities staff to proactively ensure they are in compliance. If they haven't, no harm no foul, things happen but without beating a dead horse perhaps now is a good time to give that spring cleaning to the policy folder so we don't have any issues going forward.

ZMP staff have stated they are working on an update, that should resolve the issues that have been brought up.  

[Dhruv Kalra]

This is likely my last reply to this post.

Looking back the question was raised specifically about the policy in general with no ARTCC named. ZMP took it upon itself to challenge Jason in an open forum and 'out' themselves. Obviously it became an argument between the two and in my attempt to point out this is not limited to them it's snowballed.

Allow me to direct you to Jason's most recent handiwork on the VATSIM Forums, a post directly aimed at a ZMP controller regarding our policies. If that isn't targeting us specifically, I don't know what is. I specifically linked to this post in my first reply to this thread, pointing out that the questions posed by Jason in this topic are a direct follow-on to his post on the VATSIM forum.

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]ZMP staff have stated they are working on an update, that should resolve the issues that have been brought up.[/quote]

Agreed. My replies to this thread stop here. The issue is being dealt with. Your help in pointing out the offending verbiage is appreciated, and I say this with no sarcasm or patronization intended.

Next time, JV, send an e-mail .

[Bryan Wollenberg]

It seems as though at least one VATUSA facility is unaware of that fact...  

Having very recently gone through every single local website in VATNA, I can assure you it's well more than just one facility.  Generally speaking, it's a matter of old documentation, training websites, etc. not being updated.  I have yet to actually come across an ARTCC maliciously honoring these LCTP airports, contrary to the GRP.  

I'll be speaking with Gary tonight in hopes that we can get these resolved soon, and so that the ATMs can get their materials updated.

[J Jason Vodnansky]

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[Matt Fuoco]

I have yet to actually come across an ARTCC maliciously honoring these LCTP airports, contrary to the GRP.

+1

Updating documentation is a necessary evil.  It is always a work in progress.  I can't say I agree with this post.  Yah know, there is a right way and a wrong way to deal with situations.  I think simply pointing out the conflict with VATSIM policies to the ATM or Regional Director would have been an appropriate response.  Why people run to the forums with gripes...I just don't get it.

[Gary Millsaps]

Guys,

Let's put an end to this HERE AND NOW! We're not in the third grade...Mr. Millsaps is not going to the Headmaster...we're not on the elementary school playground any more.

For those who have NOT read GRPv2, by command of the EC, the LCTP program is defunct and no longer authorized.

I'm NOT going to run around making sure your documents and procedures are all in compliance with the regs...the ATDs have the responsibility to the Division to do that...and they will do so.

What I WILL take ownership of is the ultimate responsibility to insure the facility policies and procedures are in accord with the VATSIM, EC, Region, Division, etc. requirements...so if you DO hear from me, you will know why.

If ANYONE happens to find an errant policy or whatever, I would ask that YOU SEND ME AN EMAIL TO THAT EFFECT. This public "outing" of facilities by name, reference, inference,  or IN ANY WAY WHATSOEVER is unnecessary, boorish and borders on childish behavior. We're all adults here...so please, let's act like adults!

Okay?

[Alexander Zayas]

I <3 Gary Millsaps