Newbie Pilot Questions

Steven Tarry · « **on:** October 17, 2011, 01:40:36 PM »

Hello VATSIMers,

I know that on VATSIM, if a controller isn't available, one should take the request up a level, but I wonder if someone could clarify a couple of scenarios for me.

For example, in the case where there's a tower controller at the primary airport inside class B airspace and center is online too, but no APP/DEP controller. I assume I contact center for a clearance into the class B if I'm VFR?

If I'm approaching a class D airfield with no tower and I'm VFR again, would I contact center to get permission into the D?

If I'm sitting at an airport inside class C airspace, do I contact center for clearance, taxi etc, even if VFR again?

So far, I'm really enjoying VATSIM. It's a huge improvement over practicing approaches etc with the AI ATC.

PS I know that I could file IFR and get all the clearance I needed, but what's the fun in that?

Don Desfosse · « **Reply #1 on:** October 17, 2011, 02:33:41 PM »

Welcome to VATSIM!

Yes, you've figured out the top-down methodology perfectly. You can always ask up, never down. Yes to all of your questions.

Quote from: Steven Tarry

Hello VATSIMers,

I know that on VATSIM, if a controller isn't available, one should take the request up a level, but I wonder if someone could clarify a couple of scenarios for me.

For example, in the case where there's a tower controller at the primary airport inside class B airspace and center is online too, but no APP/DEP controller. I assume I contact center for a clearance into the class B if I'm VFR?

If I'm approaching a class D airfield with no tower and I'm VFR again, would I contact center to get permission into the D?

If I'm sitting at an airport inside class C airspace, do I contact center for clearance, taxi etc, even if VFR again?

So far, I'm really enjoying VATSIM. It's a huge improvement over practicing approaches etc with the AI ATC.

PS I know that I could file IFR and get all the clearance I needed, but what's the fun in that?

Steven Tarry · « **Reply #2 on:** October 17, 2011, 03:59:19 PM »

Quote from: Don Desfosse

Welcome to VATSIM!

Yes, you've figured out the top-down methodology perfectly. You can always ask up, never down. Yes to all of your questions.

Thanks Don.

I guess that means that en-route controllers can get pretty busy, if they are the only ones online and have to act as clearance delivery, ground and tower positions for all the unstaffed airports in their area.

Don Desfosse · « **Reply #3 on:** October 17, 2011, 10:51:42 PM »

Yep, they sure can. Controllers are generally taught how to prioritize pretty well, though. Let's just say when there's a situation like the other night when I was running 5 simultaneous arrivals/approaches to KBOS, 2 KBOS departures, 1 KALB approach, 1 KBGR approach, keeping 2 guys separated on an arrival stream when they insisted on flying an unintentional loose formation, you calling for your clearance to East Pokeydale might well have been met with an "expect x minute delay" response

Seriously, though, you don't always know why you get a delay when there's a lone CTR controller on, but it's generally a good reason.

Luckily, it's also pretty rare.

Steven Tarry · « **Reply #4 on:** October 21, 2011, 03:48:28 PM »

Quote from: Don Desfosse

Welcome to VATSIM!

Yes, you've figured out the top-down methodology perfectly. You can always ask up, never down. Yes to all of your questions.

Is it normal on VATSIM for the tower at the primary airport in class B airspace to have arriving VFR aircraft contact them for a clearance into the airspace, kinda like if it were class D? I had a tower controller ask me to do that that yesterday. It's more fun that way, but was unexpected. At the time, neither approach nor center were online and I didn't think the tower would have jurisdiction over the class B.

Steve

Jon Bowles · « **Reply #5 on:** October 21, 2011, 11:36:45 PM »

Quote from: Steven Tarry

Is it normal on VATSIM for the tower at the primary airport in class B airspace to have arriving VFR aircraft contact them for a clearance into the airspace, kinda like if it were class D? I had a tower controller ask me to do that that yesterday. It's more fun that way, but was unexpected. At the time, neither approach nor center were online and I didn't think the tower would have jurisdiction over the class B.

Steve

I don't understand why, and sorry I am a bit new too, this (following my statement) is not given to pilots? There is no section for new pilots (on VATSIM), so it is left up to controllers to teach them?!?! Nobody is born knowing....

Steven, the best way to be a pilot... Is to understand what it is like to be ATC. VATUSA.NET has a great introduction to becoming ATC section called: "Training". It is located under a dropdown, on hover, on the VATUSA.NET homepage, when you hover over "VATUSA HQ".

This is meant for ATC that want to start training. When you visit, the VATSIM.net website, they mention, in the pilot area, that there are no training modules for pilots. However, if you just simply, skim over the "ATC Training Material", it will give a better idea of how, and more specifically what, ATC is asking; what they want, etc, etc...

To specifically answer your question: YOU MUST HAVE CERTAIN MODULES and COMMUNICATIONS within CERTAIN AIRSPACES, in your aircraft, BEFORE you ENTER their airspace (sorry, not yelling, trying to clarify)!

*** EDIT - WRONG LINK ***
Here is an example, from the same area I just told you about: USA Airspaces

It explains ALL airspaces in the USA, and what is required to enter each. Further reading, will only give you a better understanding of what ATC expects, and will tell you to do. Thus, giving YOU a better understanding of the same...

I hope this helps, and is no way construed as being "out of line"!

Jon Bowles · « **Reply #6 on:** October 21, 2011, 11:48:51 PM »

Oh yeah....

Here is the hierarchy of ATC, on the VATSIM network:

Center --|
App/Dep --|
Tower --| (<-- Usually ATIS, too)
Ground/Clr_Del

When a C1-3 (Center rated Controller), logs on, they are required to take that position, usually. They are then, if the only one logged on, responsible for everything under them, down to Clr_Del.

This is not the case in the real world, as there is some one there, unless otherwise specified.

So if you log on and center is the only one on, you need to contact them for your Clr_Del, Taxi, Take off, Center, Departure and if in the same area, Approach, Landing, and again Taxi...

If there is Center AND App/Dep, then contact App/Dep... etc, etc...

Hope that helps! (a bit further)

Happy Landings...

Ryan Geckler · « **Reply #7 on:** October 22, 2011, 09:42:56 PM »

Quote from: Jon Bowles

When a C1-3 (Center rated Controller), logs on, they are required to take that position, usually.

Wrong on that front.. I'm an I1 (C1) and I could log onto DTW_DEL if I felt like it. All rating does is prove proficiency in the en-route environment, plus all of the knowledge below it.

Jon Bowles · « **Reply #8 on:** October 23, 2011, 07:27:08 AM »

Quote from: Ryan Geckler

Wrong on that front.. I'm an I1 (C1) and I could log onto DTW_DEL if I felt like it. All rating does is prove proficiency in the en-route environment, plus all of the knowledge below it.

What is the deal? I have 3 whole posts on this entire forum, one of which I am giving to the community, and both have been met with some sort of snobby reply??

You have mentioned nothing of the other portion of the post. You have not contributed to the discussion, but to only add some snotty reply to a statement that I made, which by the way, was followed by the word "usually".

Is there some reason you couldn't have added more information to the original poster's question? Thus, providing additional information to 2 new VATSIM members?

I have put off becoming part of this organization for many years, and will not hesitate to leave if this is how the it follows its own Code of Conduct!

MAN! not a welcome to the community, nothing!

Rahul Parkar · « **Reply #9 on:** October 23, 2011, 09:58:30 AM »

Quote from: Steven Tarry

Is it normal on VATSIM for the tower at the primary airport in class B airspace to have arriving VFR aircraft contact them for a clearance into the airspace, kinda like if it were class D? I had a tower controller ask me to do that that yesterday. It's more fun that way, but was unexpected. At the time, neither approach nor center were online and I didn't think the tower would have jurisdiction over the class B.

Steve

Hey Steve

If they contacted you at the edge of the B, then probably not, but TWR does also own a portion of the Class B to themselves usually... Otherwise known as the "TSA" Tower Surface Area... So TWR does control VFR aircraft going through that area of the Class B.

Hope this helps!

Cheers!
Rahul

Don Desfosse · « **Reply #10 on:** October 23, 2011, 10:50:00 AM »

Jon,

Welcome to the community....

I read Ryan's post as simply providing a minor course correction to the totality of the thread; certainly not any kind of snobby attack on you. If he didn't add anything else, perhaps he felt the topic was adequately covered by you and/or other posters. Simple forum etiquette.

Ryan Geckler · « **Reply #11 on:** October 23, 2011, 11:43:40 AM »

Quote from: Jon Bowles

What is the deal? I have 3 whole posts on this entire forum, one of which I am giving to the community, and both have been met with some sort of snobby reply??

You have mentioned nothing of the other portion of the post. You have not contributed to the discussion, but to only add some snotty reply to a statement that I made, which by the way, was followed by the word "usually".

Is there some reason you couldn't have added more information to the original poster's question? Thus, providing additional information to 2 new VATSIM members?

I have put off becoming part of this organization for many years, and will not hesitate to leave if this is how the it follows its own Code of Conduct!

MAN! not a welcome to the community, nothing!

Please don't take my post that way. I'm correcting some information for the OP that you had incorrectly put down. Believe me, we all get some things messed up and people correct them.

If you'd like me to be snotty, I'll be glad to do so.

Steven Tarry · « **Reply #12 on:** October 24, 2011, 09:14:23 AM »

Thanks to everyone that's tried to help.

I have read what I can find about the differences between VATSIM and real life, so I'm fairly familiar with most of those differences, including VATSIM procedures used when a controller isn't online (see my first post).

I asked my second question because the tower wouldn't normally have control over the entire class B, so as a VFR aircraft entering the class B it wasn't obvious to me either from real-life or VATSIM's procedures that I should contact the tower for permission to enter, when center and approach were both offline at the time. Of course, that left the problem of when to contact the tower at all, so it makes sense that the tower should control the entire class B on VATSIM under these conditions, but I was wondering if it was normal procedure or not, because that would be contrary to the top-down heirarchy VATSIM usually uses.

Steve