Push and start at pilots discretion in USA

[Oliver Madilian]

So I have a question? If vatsim is made to make flight sim more realistic. Why is Push and Start at pilots own discretion in the USA. I am a pilot in real life and this has always been a question of mine. Now I know this is probably so that ground controllers are not overloaded but here is my proposal. What if a ramp control position was made. This would be a position that only had discretion of aircraft requesting push and start and would require less training than ground. Idk just an idea but would love to see it happen one day!

[Scott DeWoody]

Oliver, just for arguments sake, if such a position WAS incorporated, we would still operate on a "top down" platform, which means En Route, Approach/Departure, Tower, and Ground controllers would still be giving the P/S at own discretion when the "ramp agent" was not online.

So, personnally, I don't see the point.

Just sayin...

[Ryan Parry]

When I started on the network I had the ability to work "ramp" with my delivery cert at ZDV. It was honestly a ton of fun for me as a young S1. I think* the GRP killed that off, but I'm not sure.

Ramp is typically controlled by the airport or an airline, but sometimes ground depending on the airport. For example, in Denver United hires "ramp controllers" that do that stuff. Same thing at SFO. They're also controlling non-movement areas which fall outside the control of a ground controller. Since we simulate ATC positions under the FAA, we don't typically do it.

At ZOA we do have a procedure for aircraft at gates that will push onto an active taxiway. If an aircraft is at such a gate we ask them to call us for push and then simply give them a real simple "push onto alpha approved" when appropriate. That's the closest thing to ramp we have though.

[Camden Bruno]

At ZOA we do have a procedure for aircraft at gates that will push onto an active taxiway. If an aircraft is at such a gate we ask them to call us for push and then simply give them a real simple "push onto alpha approved" when appropriate. That's the closest thing to ramp we have though.

We do the same at BOS. They do the same at real-world BOS as well.

[William Anderson]

They're also controlling non-movement areas which fall outside the control of a ground controller. Since we simulate ATC positions under the FAA, we don't typically do it.

Bingo.

[Fred Michaels]

There are also circumstances where you will find a modified version of a "Ramp Ground" controller position. It is quite common for ARTCCs hosting larger events, such as CTP. In those situations, the Ramp position may actually be staffed but is operated by a certified Ground Controller to help manage traffic flow onto the active taxiways.

[Hall Chris]

It should depend on the airfield you're working. Not every airfield or gate at an airfield requires a request for pushback. It would be nice if the vatsim atc guys could take a look at some Jeppessens 10-9, 10-9b to see what really happens at specific places. Also, I've never heard anyone request startup, its just taken for granted that when you pushback you're going to start your engines. I mean this in the real world. I'm retired from the mil and flying for my second airline. It would also be nice if people could use the correct taxi flows for specific airfields instead of just coming up with whatever they want. I am using vatsim while I'm on medical leave and I have to be very careful not to get in bad habits.

[Shane VanHoven]

At ZOA we do have a procedure for aircraft at gates that will push onto an active taxiway. If an aircraft is at such a gate we ask them to call us for push and then simply give them a real simple "push onto alpha approved" when appropriate. That's the closest thing to ramp we have though.

We do the same at BOS. They do the same at real-world BOS as well.

Same at MSP. We actually have a position called "Ground Metering" whose job is literally only to give pushback clearances and tell the airplane which ground to call for taxi. During weather events they will also advise airplanes of delays prior to pushback.

More of this is simulated on the network than most people think. One huge pet peeve of mine though, is when I say "Advise ready to push" and the pilot pushes on their own anyway because "Well everywhere else let's me push at pilot's discretion."

It just depends on the traffic levels. If there a single airplane on the ground, I couldn't care less when, how, and where you push. Just listen to what the controller actually tells you, not what you think they are going to tell you based on what other facilities do.

[Brin Brody]

So I have a question? If vatsim is made to make flight sim more realistic. Why is Push and Start at pilots own discretion in the USA. I am a pilot in real life and this has always been a question of mine. Now I know this is probably so that ground controllers are not overloaded but here is my proposal. What if a ramp control position was made. This would be a position that only had discretion of aircraft requesting push and start and would require less training than ground. Idk just an idea but would love to see it happen one day!

All of the above are very correct...  On busy days (especially events), many airports do operate using either a 'Ground Metering' controller, or some kind of controller that covers the ramps, and pushbacks.  For example, if you take a look at PANC (Ted Stevens Anchorage Intl. Airport), you see taxiway K is right off the A ramps, so people push right onto an active taxiway.  Therefore, ground sometimes controls pushing back aircraft to prevent issues there.

[Brad Littlejohn]

The other issue here is that while a few airports (LAS, ATL, DCA) have a dedicated Ramp controller position, that position is not an FAA position. At LAS, that position is filled by the local aviation authority (in this case, Clark County Aviation Authority), while some others may be under the control of the airline in question. None of these are official FAA positions, and each one may have their own standards which to adhere.

So until that issue is resolved throughout the US ADIZ (which may never be, as it is airport-dependent), there may never be an official FAA position to cover this.

BL.

[Matthew Kosmoski]

The other issue here is that while a few airports (LAS, ATL, DCA) have a dedicated Ramp controller position, that position is not an FAA position. At LAS, that position is filled by the local aviation authority (in this case, Clark County Aviation Authority), while some others may be under the control of the airline in question. None of these are official FAA positions, and each one may have their own standards which to adhere.

So until that issue is resolved throughout the US ADIZ (which may never be, as it is airport-dependent), there may never be an official FAA position to cover this.

BL.

There aren't any ramps in the ADIZ ;-)

Ramps are non-movement areas.  The FAA has no authority over them.  That'd be like trying to get them to introduce controllers in the parking garage.