Clarification on VATSIM COC Section B Sub Section 4

[Karl Mathias Moberg]

From a controllers perspective:

I deal with a lot of new pilots when I'm controlling in New York. Most if not all of them don't know what a class B airspace is, and they absolutely don't know what a mode C veil is. I have pilots flying around ZNY in the middle of the approach paths into the airports squawking standby. The problem is that they don't know the altitude restrictions of the B and when to stay below it, and when I don't see their altitudes because they are squawking standby, I have to switch radar modes to verify that the pilot is not too high and going to crash into another aircraft.

Real world, I could in most cases trust that the pilot is going to stay below the B and not worry about it - on VATSIM, I can't do that because we don't have any forced pilot training. So what is the alternative? Well, I text the pilots squawking standby and ask them to squawk C, so I at least don't have to switch radar modes to tower mode to see their altitude.

[Matthew Kosmoski]

Matthew, you make some good points, although I don't know that we can simplify it by saying things were better in the old days. That comparison has become all too common and all too easy to make, and is solely dependent on your own experience.


But to the point regarding controller and pilot behavior, unfortunately, we can't teach good manners and we can only preach common sense. So you do the best you can with what you have.

Agreed that looking at the past with rose-colored glasses isn't always the right answer, but I'm cherry picking for a reason

There are evolutions that I love (for example, voice... pre-voice VATSIM kinda really sucked) and wouldn't ever want to revert lol.  Newer controller clients allowing for better presentation an interaction, as well.  Actually, it sounds like I generally appreciate technology improvements, but I may have more concerns with some of the cultural changes.

[Ira Robinson]

Matthew, you make some good points, although I don't know that we can simplify it by saying things were better in the old days. That comparison has become all too common and all too easy to make, and is solely dependent on your own experience.


But to the point regarding controller and pilot behavior, unfortunately, we can't teach good manners and we can only preach common sense. So you do the best you can with what you have.

Agreed that looking at the past with rose-colored glasses isn't always the right answer, but I'm cherry picking for a reason

There are evolutions that I love (for example, voice... pre-voice VATSIM kinda really sucked) and wouldn't ever want to revert lol.  Newer controller clients allowing for better presentation an interaction, as well.  Actually, it sounds like I generally appreciate technology improvements, but I may have more concerns with some of the cultural changes.

Those cultural changes, as you put it, are more than simply cultural.   They're also generational.  And there isn't a damn thing you, we, can do about that.  If mom didn't teach you when to say thank you, I have little chance of doing so myself. 

Of course, that doesn't mean we don't bang our heads against the wall trying 

[Matthew Kosmoski]

Those cultural changes, as you put it, are more than simply cultural.   They're also generational.  And there isn't a damn thing you, we, can do about that.  If mom didn't teach you when to say thank you, I have little chance of doing so myself. 

Of course, that doesn't mean we don't bang our heads against the wall trying 

Sure we can.  We remove people from the network for cursing on network.  We remove people from the network for things slightly more exaggerated than not saying thank you.

Regardless, that doesn't mean we shouldn't at least discuss it.  Perhaps open discussion would allow some eyes to open.  And that could include mine.

[Tony Jeppesen]

From someone who is here purely for entertainment and the enjoyment of aviation from my bedroom.  If you want uber realism go fly for real, or head on over to Pilot Edge and pay for it.  Lots of complaining around here for a free service if you ask me.

[Matthew Kosmoski]

From someone who is here purely for entertainment and the enjoyment of aviation from my bedroom.  If you want uber realism go fly for real, or head on over to Pilot Edge and pay for it.  Lots of complaining around here for a free service if you ask me.

And I think we all have determined that PE isn't much more real.  PE-isms are a thing, too :-)

But I'll agree, the real deal is the way to go.  I like doing this when I can't do that.

[Camden Bruno]

PE isn't much more real.

+1

Let's not encourage people to leave VATSIM for PilotEdge if they're looking for realism, please. Plenty of realism around here, too.

[Ira Robinson]

PE isn't much more real.

+1

Let's not encourage people to leave VATSIM for PilotEdge if they're looking for realism, please. Plenty of realism around here, too.

Agreed, of course. What I think Tony is pointing out is the fact that we can nitpick the interpretation of the words to death, but all that serves to do is give us something to debate and argue whether or not it takes away from or adds to the level of realism each of us is looking for.

And unfortunately, it does nothing to add to the fun of flying or controlling which, as Tony also pointed out, is really what most of us joined to do.

 

[Matthew Kosmoski]

And unfortunately, it does nothing to add to the fun of flying or controlling which, as Tony also pointed out, is really what most of us joined to do.

I don't know about y'all, but I joined for the ladies.

[Tony Jeppesen]

I don't know about y'all, but I joined for the ladies.

  I have no words   However, that is funny!