Members using VRC/vPilot private message to advertise...

[Ian Fisher]

Hey everyone,

Recently when I have been controlling and flying I have been receiving an influx of private messages advertising different VA's, groups or discords. The messages I have been receiving are similar to this:

"[21:23:26] [REDACTED]: Hey you should join our Discord server it's all about general aviation and flight simming(sic). I am a admin and my name on there is [REDACTED]. Here's the link if you want to join [REDACTED]"

Maybe I'm being a grumpy gill but is this a appropriate use for PM on the network? Is this actually breaking the rules? Am I the only one getting these messages? Just want to get some opinions.

[Matthew Kosmoski]

I've also noticed the increase in PM spam.  They don't seem to understand why I ask them to stop spamming me with that crap.  The closest thing to a CoC violation seems to be the usual A1.

[Robert Shearman Jr]

Well, when you spend weeks painting liveries, setting up a website, creating hundreds of routes, hiring Hub Managers for your nine worldwide hubs, but have no actual pilots to fly in your new VA, how else are you supposed to recruit?

;-)  ;-)  ;-)

[Elai Kindler]

I haven't received any of these messages, but I commonly see people putting stuff like that in their remarks.

[Kyle Sanders]

how else are you supposed to recruit?

;-)  ;-)  ;-)

I understand the work that goes into it, but I respectfully disagree with ATC PMs being the answer to recruiting outlets. There are plenty of social media and forums to do that in. Redit, Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat, ......... MySpace (haha).... VATSIM, VATUSA, X-Plane.org.... the list goes on. Don’t bother ATC doing a job.... even if it sounds dead on frequency, unless they ask.

[Matthew Kosmoski]

I understand the work that goes into it, but I respectfully disagree with ATC PMs being the answer to recruiting outlets. There are plenty of social media and forums to do that in. Redit, Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat, ......... MySpace (haha).... VATSIM, VATUSA, X-Plane.org.... the list goes on. Don’t bother ATC doing a job.... even if it sounds dead on frequency, unless they ask.

Or other pilots.  If I wanted to get spammed like that, I'd sign up for mailing lists.  Plenty of "official" avenues exist for advertisement.

[Tony Jeppesen]

Next time this happens please .wallop.  This is not allowed, VATSIM provides many places to advertise your VAs.  Also, when I control i generally .busyall so that they only people who can talk to me via private message are in range controllers.

[Matthew Kosmoski]

Next time this happens please .wallop.  This is not allowed, VATSIM provides many places to advertise your VAs.  Also, when I control i generally .busyall so that they only people who can talk to me via private message are in range controllers.

I tend to do that when I'm busy and can't accept PMs, but I've received PMs from pilots that are quasi-legitimateish.

[Robert Shearman Jr]

how else are you supposed to recruit?

;-)  ;-)  ;-)

I understand the work that goes into it, but I respectfully disagree with ATC PMs being the answer to recruiting outlets. There are plenty of social media and forums to do that in. Redit, Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat, ......... MySpace (haha).... VATSIM, VATUSA, X-Plane.org.... the list goes on. Don’t bother ATC doing a job.... even if it sounds dead on frequency, unless they ask.

For the record, I was speaking satirically about folks who start VAs with 100% infrastructure and no actual personnel.  I am not actually in favor of unsolicited PMs sent to recruit members to any new venture... including mine.

Including VA and other website links in remarks, I don't see any harm.  You can choose to look at them or not to look at them, and if so, when to do so.  And they don't show up with loud distracting beeps... ;-)

[Matthew Kosmoski]

how else are you supposed to recruit?

;-)  ;-)  ;-)

I understand the work that goes into it, but I respectfully disagree with ATC PMs being the answer to recruiting outlets. There are plenty of social media and forums to do that in. Redit, Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat, ......... MySpace (haha).... VATSIM, VATUSA, X-Plane.org.... the list goes on. Don’t bother ATC doing a job.... even if it sounds dead on frequency, unless they ask.

For the record, I was speaking satirically about folks who start VAs with 100% infrastructure and no actual personnel.  I am not actually in favor of unsolicited PMs sent to recruit members to any new venture... including mine.

Including VA and other website links in remarks, I don't see any harm.  You can choose to look at them or not to look at them, and if so, when to do so.  And they don't show up with loud distracting beeps... ;-)

When the remarks are at the end, sure... but when they front load the remarks, I'm forced to look at it before identifying if there's anything control-relevant in their remarks.

[Ian Fisher]

Next time this happens please .wallop.  This is not allowed, VATSIM provides many places to advertise your VAs.  Also, when I control i generally .busyall so that they only people who can talk to me via private message are in range controllers.

Tony,

I didn't really want to go as far as a .wallop when I didn't even know for sure if they were violating COC/COR. Do you have a specific reference? In the future I would encourage people to read said reference. This was my intention with the pilot in question originally.

[Brin Brody]

This would be covered in Article VI 6.03C of the VATSIM Code of Regulation, under Prohibited Conduct. Spamming information through private message would certainly cause me not to enjoy the network.

.busyall allows other controller who are in your vis range to still contact you via PM if needed.  It does not allow pilots to contact you via PM. 

[Robert Shearman Jr]

My scoop on this...  This is entirely unacceptable.  I can't seem to find the CoC/CoR violation, though.  Anyone see it?

CoC (A)(12) forbids private messages intended to "harass" -- but in the context of the other words around it ("threaten," "intimidate," etcetera), I don't know that unsolicited advertising rises to the level intended by the code -- at least, if it's only sent one time.  If it's sent multiple times I would think that would leave one open against a case for "harassing" messages.  I do agree that it's a pretty despicable practice.  I've definitely engaged people (fellow pilots and controllers) on the network in PM conversations that have led naturally to my mentioning VATSTAR, but I've never simply cold-called someone via PM to urge them to visit and sign up and I would absolutely not condone anyone from our organization engaging in that kind of petty business.  I wonder if it's something the BoG would be open to modifying the CoC to expressly forbid stuff like that?

[Toby Rice]

I've definitely engaged people (fellow pilots and controllers) on the network in PM conversations that have led naturally to my mentioning VATSTAR, but I've never simply cold-called someone via PM to urge them to visit and sign up and I would absolutely not condone anyone from our organization engaging in that kind of petty business.  I wonder if it's something the BoG would be open to modifying the CoC to expressly forbid stuff like that?

It is a common practice for me to PM a link to new pilots with Pilot Training information (VATSTAR.com) if I see that they're struggling. I have an alias for it. It's something to the tune of "Aloha. If you'd like to learn more about flying on VATSIM and want to improve your flying skills, I highly recommend that you check out VATSTAR.com. You can obtain pilot ratings, etc..." and so on.

Messages like that from a controller to a pilot, in my opinion, are contributing towards the improvement of the network by better educating pilots and creating a more professional environment, which in turn makes it more fun for everyone.

VATSIM's three fundamental principles are education, professionalism, and entertainment.

Rob, I don't think that your PMing with pilots and controllers about VATSTAR as you describe is the same kind of spamming that we're dealing with from other organizations. I believe that your desire to improve the quality of the members of the network is different than someone trying to hire 500 pilots for a VA. Same thing with what I do: I see a pilot that needs assistance, so I help him/her by providing the information necessary to become a better pilot.

[Robert Shearman Jr]

I've definitely engaged people (fellow pilots and controllers) on the network in PM conversations that have led naturally to my mentioning VATSTAR, but I've never simply cold-called someone via PM to urge them to visit and sign up and I would absolutely not condone anyone from our organization engaging in that kind of petty business.  I wonder if it's something the BoG would be open to modifying the CoC to expressly forbid stuff like that?

It is a common practice for me to PM a link to new pilots with Pilot Training information (VATSTAR.com) if I see that they're struggling. I have an alias for it.

That's a good point.  I do think there's a purpose served by something like that; obviously, I agree that it benefits the network.  (At least I hope so, haha.)

I believe that your desire to improve the quality of the members of the network is different than someone trying to hire 500 pilots for a VA.

And the upshot of this conversation is that any regulation we might favor would need to be very carefully crafted as to allow what we see as legitimate, and disallow that which we see as a nuisance.  That is bound to be a tricky proposition.