What's the busiest Sweatbox scenario you've ever seen/ran/built?!

Matthew Kosmoski

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Re: What's the busiest Sweatbox scenario you've ever seen/ran/built?!
« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2018, 11:09:22 am »
I'll make the argument that death files are not training tools here:  They're toys.  They're abused to make students do things they're likely not ready nor capable of.

Don't get me wrong, they're fun once you're comfortable and learn some tricks of the trade, but subjecting new students to them seems to do more harm than good.

With respect, I think you missed this part of Shane's post:

This scenario is basically ran at the very end of training just to see what the absolute breaking point of the student ends up being.

No, I very much caught that part.  I don't think it changes the situation at all.  What value does driving a student to a "breaking point" bring to the table?  As an instructor, we should be able to derive that very information without attempting to defile the student.  If you can't, you aren't spending enough time learning the student.
Matthew Kosmoski
Air Traffic Manager | ZHU ARTCC
mkosmoski@zhuartcc.org
www.zhuartcc.org

Shane VanHoven

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Re: What's the busiest Sweatbox scenario you've ever seen/ran/built?!
« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2018, 01:01:37 pm »
I'll make the argument that death files are not training tools here:  They're toys.  They're abused to make students do things they're likely not ready nor capable of.

Don't get me wrong, they're fun once you're comfortable and learn some tricks of the trade, but subjecting new students to them seems to do more harm than good.

With respect, I think you missed this part of Shane's post:

This scenario is basically ran at the very end of training just to see what the absolute breaking point of the student ends up being.

No, I very much caught that part.  I don't think it changes the situation at all.  What value does driving a student to a "breaking point" bring to the table?  As an instructor, we should be able to derive that very information without attempting to defile the student.  If you can't, you aren't spending enough time learning the student.

Maybe you should just see yourself out of the thread before you make even more of a fool of yourself. Every single one of the radar developmentals at our facility experience that scenario. They end up wanting more. Maybe this is because we actually take a great deal of pride in being the best we can be, and it shows when we host events and are actually capable of keeping the final contained inside the final controllers' airspace.

Just because you might be incapable or unwilling to be a better controller doesn't mean everyone else on the network can't.
Shane VanHoven
Minneapolis ARTCC, VATUSA ACE Team | Instructor
Private pilot, Instrument, ASEL
FAA Air Traffic Developmental, Terminal

Dhruv Kalra

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Re: What's the busiest Sweatbox scenario you've ever seen/ran/built?!
« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2018, 01:18:51 pm »
No, I very much caught that part.  I don't think it changes the situation at all.  What value does driving a student to a "breaking point" bring to the table?  As an instructor, we should be able to derive that very information without attempting to defile the student.  If you can't, you aren't spending enough time learning the student.

A previous ATM and division director was big into the concept of “continuous improvement”. I should probably clarify that we only run this level of traffic on them post-certification on M98 as an opportunity to develop proficiency with traffic levels typically only seen during events.

If we’re going to wring our hands about how to improve events, we can’t blame it all on the pilots. We all deal with the same talent pool when an event rolls around, and facility to facility often yields starkly different results in the overall flow of event traffic. With very few exceptions, most of the guys who go through our radar training and then work a busy event thank us for giving them the opportunity to train to that level prior to throwing them to the wolves during an FNO.
Dhruv Kalra
ZMP ATM | Instructor | Grumpy Old Man

Brandon Barrett

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Re: What's the busiest Sweatbox scenario you've ever seen/ran/built?!
« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2018, 02:22:25 pm »
When I was a TA I had all my students going for major approach run through our "Death File" at least once or twice (twice to see or show improvement, not passing). It wasn't required but I used it as a learning guide to FNO level traffic. We also had a file called "fix the mess". That file contained targets that were not sequence, etc. I'm sure we all have been put in situations during an FNO where a controller in the next sector froze up, lost connection, rage quit or a combination of the three. I think its important to understand both concepts and be able to dig your sector out of a hole when the time comes.

The "death file", or whatever you want to call it, shouldn't be used to degrade the students and I'm sure ZMP and the rest of ARTCCs aren't using it as such. For those of you who are using it as such then you are clearly using it wrong. I always told my students "this isn't passable try your best and let's not forget the basic fundamentals you were taught just because you are slammed". Then Id run them through the file the next week and show them their improvements.

So at the end of the day, I think these files are great if used the correct way!

If we’re going to wring our hands about how to improve events, we can’t blame it all on the pilots.
Brandon Barrett
ZTL

Ryan Geckler

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Re: What's the busiest Sweatbox scenario you've ever seen/ran/built?!
« Reply #19 on: July 16, 2018, 05:32:37 pm »
And having such scenarios are a common real-world training tool. It isn't limited to being a VATSIMism.
Ryan Geckler - GK
Former VATUSA3 | Division Training Director
Minneapolis ARTCC | RW Miami ARTCC

Reuben Prevost

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Re: What's the busiest Sweatbox scenario you've ever seen/ran/built?!
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2018, 01:31:44 pm »
Bringing back an old post cause I was messing around in the sim again tonight. Here's the death scenario for M98... Basically running finals to MSP at the max rate for about 25 minutes...combined. Normally we'd have final de-combined north and south, but for training purposes, and cause who doesn't like pain, we combined them. This scenario is basically ran at the very end of training just to see what the absolute breaking point of the student ends up being. I'm curious how other facilities in VATUSA progress students through radar training! Start them slow and work them up through busier problems? Break down each TRACON position one at a time? Let me know what you guys do!

Shane where would I find the Keyboard UI for Euroscope's Simulator?
« Last Edit: August 09, 2018, 03:49:22 pm by Reuben Prevost »

Shane VanHoven

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Re: What's the busiest Sweatbox scenario you've ever seen/ran/built?!
« Reply #21 on: August 16, 2018, 12:18:10 pm »
Bringing back an old post cause I was messing around in the sim again tonight. Here's the death scenario for M98... Basically running finals to MSP at the max rate for about 25 minutes...combined. Normally we'd have final de-combined north and south, but for training purposes, and cause who doesn't like pain, we combined them. This scenario is basically ran at the very end of training just to see what the absolute breaking point of the student ends up being. I'm curious how other facilities in VATUSA progress students through radar training! Start them slow and work them up through busier problems? Break down each TRACON position one at a time? Let me know what you guys do!

Shane where would I find the Keyboard UI for Euroscope's Simulator?

I can't remember where I got it. It's called ESKey, maybe one of the other Euroscope users on here can point you in the right direction.
Shane VanHoven
Minneapolis ARTCC, VATUSA ACE Team | Instructor
Private pilot, Instrument, ASEL
FAA Air Traffic Developmental, Terminal

Rick Rump

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Re: What's the busiest Sweatbox scenario you've ever seen/ran/built?!
« Reply #22 on: August 16, 2018, 01:50:27 pm »
Reuben,

https://vzdc.org/downloads/ESKey%20v1.1.a1/ESKey.exe
https://vzdc.org/downloads/ESKey%20v1.1.a1/eskey.ini
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1XayIG6nv7vJ2HjSStdTvjhVEqaQqTgen96bh2fn-r94/edit?usp=sharing

Feel free to e-mail me with any questions about ESKey.

ESKey is freely available to download from ZDC, but we ask that you do not host it internally but feel free to link it. I have been trying to get a hold of the author to look into updates/letting others host it but he has been MIA for quite some time.

VATUSA Training Director
https://vatusa.net
vatusa 3 at vatusa dot net
Former ZDC ATM, DATM, TA & WM

Joshua Hooker

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Re: What's the busiest Sweatbox scenario you've ever seen/ran/built?!
« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2018, 09:23:13 am »
Ask about the D10 Final Trainer if you're ever around, it's a good one for sure.

Owen Bliss

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Re: What's the busiest Sweatbox scenario you've ever seen/ran/built?!
« Reply #24 on: September 06, 2018, 09:00:32 am »
Here at Fort Worth we have a few tough files we like to run. The D10 Death is my personal favorite. 30 Aircraft from all arrival gates. What makes it even better is when you run the Euro-scope file, and they actually fly the RNAV arrival.  8)
Owen Bliss
Jacksonville ARTCC S3
owen.b@flyjetbluevirtual.org
JetBlue Virtual Event Coordinator & JFK Hub Manager



Mark Hubbert

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Re: What's the busiest Sweatbox scenario you've ever seen/ran/built?!
« Reply #25 on: September 06, 2018, 10:53:57 am »
Quote
A previous ATM and division director was big into the concept of “continuous improvement”. I should probably clarify that we only run this level of traffic on them post-certification on M98 as an opportunity to develop proficiency with traffic levels typically only seen during events.

If we’re going to wring our hands about how to improve events, we can’t blame it all on the pilots. We all deal with the same talent pool when an event rolls around, and facility to facility often yields starkly different results in the overall flow of event traffic. With very few exceptions, most of the guys who go through our radar training and then work a busy event thank us for giving them the opportunity to train to that level prior to throwing them to the wolves during an FNO.

Dhruv, point well taken.  I personally think the Death Sims can be a useful tool providing they are used properly and serve to enhance a student's ability, knowledge and experience as opposed to discouraging them.  I trust that is the case in most situations although I am certain that each ARTCC may do things a little different than the other.  I think one thing that sometimes gets lost is the fact that a person with a S3 rating is still a student even when they have achieved their major endorsement.  Most of us who have earned our C1's are still students especially for those who do not have the aviation background as part of their career. 

Good discussion guys.
Mark Hubbert
Division Director VATUSA

Robert Shearman Jr

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Re: What's the busiest Sweatbox scenario you've ever seen/ran/built?!
« Reply #26 on: September 08, 2018, 12:59:41 pm »
I think one thing that sometimes gets lost is the fact that a person with a S3 rating is still a student even when they have achieved their major endorsement.  Most of us who have earned our C1's are still students especially for those who do not have the aviation background as part of their career.
In the field AND the hobby of aviation, whether pilots, controllers are both -- we are ALL still students, ALL the time.
Cheers,
-R.