Fixes that ATC has that are not showing on SkyVector or SIDS

Tom Maxwell

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Fixes that ATC has that are not showing on SkyVector or SIDS
« on: August 29, 2018, 06:25:10 pm »
I've noticed on SkyVector that not all fixes are shown on the charts.  Yesterday I was practicing for my P2 check ride flying out of Love Field KDAL to Tyler Pounds Regional KTYR.  Looking at the World Low chart on SkyVector I see KDAL->ROCKK->TYR->KTYR.  Looking on Flightaware I see two flight plans referencing the HUBB9 and GARL6 departures.  Both departures show the same route but add the CLARE fix between KDAL and ROCKK.   CLARE is not shown on the World Low chart.  OK, "good job," I think, "You did your homework properly."  So when I get online I file KDAL->HUBB9->CLARE->ROCKK->TYR->KTYR.  I call for clearance and get an amended route of KDAL->HANUH->CLARE->ROCKK->TYR->KTYR.   "WTF,"  I say to myself, "What is HANUH?"  So I ask for time to look at it and enter HANUH into SkyVector and sure enough it comes up as a crosshair waypoint with no label.  In addition, adding HANUH into the route puts a sharp 90 degree jog into the route which I don't think is really appropriate, but I digress.  Never the less, I accepted the amendment and flew it.  In the spirit of trying to be right more than wrong, what does a guy have to go by if the controllers are using fixes that don't show up on the World Low chart or the SIDs?  Did I miss something in my research?  What is the controller looking at that I missed?  I'm not upset, I'm just trying to learn how to do my part to lessen the load on the controllers and have fewer corrections in the process.  I will admit it does create a bit of anxiety in met when an amendment is issued to what was thought to be a well planned route. Just curious if I am missing something.

Ryan Barnes

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Re: Fixes that ATC has that are not showing on SkyVector or SIDS
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2018, 06:34:36 pm »
Hello,
In all TRACONs, ATC has waypoints that are called Departure and Arrival gates. These gates are places where departures will exit the tracon, or arrive in the tracon. It keeps departure and arrival traffic separated. HANUH is a departure gate for the D10. If you look at the various SIDs out of the D10 and the way the tracon is shapped, HANUH is found on the border of the tracon.
ZHU Facility Engineer C1

Tom Maxwell

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Re: Fixes that ATC has that are not showing on SkyVector or SIDS
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2018, 07:24:19 pm »
Thanks for the information.  I did more research and ended up looking at the D10 SOP on the ZFW web site.  It shows the departure gates as LOWGN, BLECO, GRABE, AKUNA, NOBLY, TRISS, SOLDO, CLARE, DARTZ, ARDIA, JASPA, NELYN, PODDE, CEOLA, SLOTT, and FERRA.  Of these SOLDO and CLARE are both on the HUBBARD NINE departure that I used to file.  I selected CLARE as my first fix as that is what is shown on the HUBBARD NINE departure with routes to KTYR.  The only reference I can find to HANUH is on the KUSSO FIVE departure which is more of a straight east departure with no routing to KTYR.  I suppose if the controller had asked me to accept "KUSSO5 HANUH CLARE then as filed,"  I would have at least known to look at the KUSSO FIVE SID.  As it was, "cleared direct HANUH then as filed,"  kind of threw me for a loop because I couldn't find HANUH on the HUBB9 departure.  Again, not complaining, just trying to understand how I might have gotten to the route given without the need for ATC to correct it  I know ATC are busy and I am guessing that correcting flight plans is not a fun part of the job.  I hope to begin controlling one day after getting my P5 rating and am just trying to understand it all. Thanks for your feedback. :)

Ryan Parry

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Re: Fixes that ATC has that are not showing on SkyVector or SIDS
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2018, 09:33:49 pm »
If you look on the HUBB9 chart, TYR is a transition, so filing HUBB9 TYR should've been perfectly fine. The world low doesn't show all of the fixes, there is thousands, probably even millions of fixes in the United States. The world low is only going to show you the ones that are relevant some how, such as being on an airway.

Another tip, on SkyVector when you punch in your origin and destination you will see in the bottom right, just above where you write the route, a link that says "routes". If you click it you will get a drop down with routes that have been filed in the RW. The heart will mean a commonly cleared route, the green leaf means it is the most efficient. If you look up this city pair, HUBB9 TYR is the preferred route (GARL6 TYR is for Jets below 17000 as noted on the chart). I think you know you can look these up on Flightaware as well, and sure enough HUBB9 TYR is what has been filed and cleared by ATC if you want to verify what SkyVector says.

It looks like HANUH is close to CLARE, but HANUH is an RNAV waypoint while CLARE is a fix. I'm guessing they wanted to route you via the RNAV waypoint like other traffic, but that is dependent on you being able to accept an RNAV waypoint. They should've removed CLARE if you accepted HANUH. Also, you can always ask why when you get an amendment and you can always refuse it if you don't want to do it for some reason.
Ryan Parry - 965346
ZOA Air Traffic Manager

Clay Brock

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Re: Fixes that ATC has that are not showing on SkyVector or SIDS
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2018, 10:23:00 pm »
I have been a controller at Fort Worth for the last 3 years. The controller who gave you this new routing was in the wrong. If you filed KDAL->KTYR via HUBBARD9 departure TYR transition, then there should have never been any change. Yes, HANUH is a departure gate, but so is CLARE. Since HUBB9 TYR goes through CLARE, the controller shouldn't have given a reroute. If you were wondering, HANUH is essentially the RNAV corresponding departure gate to CLARE. I'm not sure what was going through this controller's mind when he routed you through 2 departure gates that are almost on top of each other. If he wanted to route you via the RNAV corresponding point HANAH, the controller should have just issued the KUSSO5 departure.

For future reference, when filing a SID in your flight plan, you do not have to type out every point in the SID. You can simply type the same of the SID (HUBB9) *space* the transition (TYR). So instead of filing "HUBB9 CLARE ROCKK TYR" it should just be "HUBB9 TYR"

I'm sorry about your confusing experience. You did your homework right. If you are ever confused about a routing, it never hurts to ask.
Clay Brock (CB) - 1299667
Controller (C1)
ZFW ARTCC
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Tom Maxwell

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Re: Fixes that ATC has that are not showing on SkyVector or SIDS
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2018, 11:16:17 pm »
Got it all thanks!  We have also been discussing this with other controllers on the VATSTAR Discord.  Sorry for the cross-post.  No hard feelings and not trying to call anyone out.  I am just a fairly new simmer trying to learn and understand.  It is all very good and I am having fun.  I appreciate all of the controllers who donate their time and knowledge to make this all possible. My goal is to become a controller one day.  Thanks so much for your responses.

Brin Brody

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Re: Fixes that ATC has that are not showing on SkyVector or SIDS
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2018, 01:39:14 pm »
My goal is to become a controller one day.

Careful... It's a scary, addictive road.  ;D
Brin Brody
Deputy Air Traffic Manager
Jacksonville ARTCC
datm@zjxartcc.org