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Thomas Flanary

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« Reply #45 on: February 08, 2010, 08:42:18 AM »
Eduardo, I would challenge you on that.

The reason is simple: As a pilot, you cannot know the airspace or frequency you should be on at all times. Lets go back to 2001-2007 when BAY_TWR was online. Do you contact him if you're flying out of SFO/OAK/SJC? The answer is yes. How does a pilot know this, he's not flying into KBAY, and it doesn't show up on serv info.

Another example. You're flying to Haiti from KMIA, you depart without MIA_CTR on, and you're flying along at FL210 and a Nassau Center controller comes online, do you contact him? The technical answer, is no. His airspace owns up to 18k. However, recently we are renegotiating a deal where they can control up to FL600. If Nassau center is offline and ZMA_O_CTR is online, or if they're both online, who do you contact?

You, as a pilot, cannot possibly know of all the different airspace requirements, restrictions and limitations. That's the controllers job.

However, if you are familiar with the airspace, you should be comfortable to contact who you need to.

According to the VATSIM page, VATSIM does not utilize constant policing of it's members. Meaning, if we all use common sense, then these situations can be resolved.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2010, 08:45:32 AM by Tom Flanary »

Andrew Podner

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« Reply #46 on: February 08, 2010, 09:39:45 AM »
This really saddens me.  Not because of the topic, but because this discussion is apt to be read by prospective pilots and controllers thinking about joining our organization.  What if this thread were someone's only impression of VATSIM?  Do we really want people thinking that this is what it is all about...semantics and ultimatums?  It certainly is not the VASTIM I joined.

This thread has devolved into what the core problem is, intolerance and entitlement.  People would rather be right than agree that their views differ with others.  I am sorry, but I do not feel that telling someone "if you don't like it, leave" is the correct response when people have a disagreement.  That kind of thing smacks of exclusivity and is not what we are all about.

Do you know what I do when a pilot comes into my airspace?  I hit the HOME key and ASEL him....

Wanna know what happens if he doesn't respond?  Nothing, unless he is a threat to other aircraft, in which case I will shuffle the other aircraft as best I can, and maybe contact a SUP if it gets out of hand.

Why do I take this attitude toward the subject?  Simple, my enjoyment and minimization of my stress while doing this comes first.  And I refuse to let myself get worked up over someone being AFK, or their radio not working, or whatever.  The percentage of people who wantonly get on the network to hose the controllers and pilots is so small that it is barely worth mentioning, and immediately concluding that everyone who doesn't follow instructions to the letter (as interpreted in most cases) has  malicious intent is a very juvenile attitude to take.

With regards to the rules being laid out...those who are complaining about the Vis Ranges not being officially published have a completely valid point, and calling people out, suppressing the argument, or shifting the blame doesn't make it any less valid.  Anything that is subject to enforceability by a SUP or ADM should be a published rule.  At same time, calling out the higher ups because you're not happy is also unacceptable.  Handle it like grown-ups behind closed doors.

What we are doing now is holding members accountable to a standard that is not part of the documents available to the membership at large.  That is unfair to the members.  People's CERT records get dinged for this regularly.  I would argue that since you have no published standard in the rules, you can't ding someone over it.  That should be a wake up call that something needs adjustment.  It doesn't have to be a CoC amendment, just a simple EC doc will do; just give us a standard, it is not too much to ask and should not consume more than an hour of time to get accomplished.  Not only that, but the idea that we have rules on what an S1 is supposed to know about taxi instructions but not what his max vis range is when network bandwidth is constantly used as a reminder of something we must be cognizant of is just plain silly on its face.

Relax people, we are supposed to be having fun.  If you aren't having fun, why continue to subject yourself to it?

Spencer Devino

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« Reply #47 on: February 08, 2010, 11:24:06 AM »
Quote from: David Klain
...

Let me close with a direct response to one comment made in this thread --- a reference to supervisors as Gestapo. I find that statement incredibly offensive and insensitive. Before you think it, no I am not Jewish or German, but comparing any one of the volunteers who dedicate their free time to making this network better to the Nazi Gestapo is in poor taste, offensive and downright rude. I recognize that many of the VATSIM membership are young people who don't necessarily "think before they speak" but it is time some of you start doing just that.


David, I ask that you read my post carefully:

Quote from: Spencer Devino
There is a very good point here. When I was training for my S2 Cert. I was told you do not need to set your Vis Range higher than 50nm. This is NOWHERE in the training material. Well, here I am sitting in the Tower CAB with vis @ 90nm and I get PMed by a SUP (the almighty) saying rudely that I am wasting bandwidth and have to turn my Visibility range down now.

Nobody appreciates being talked to like a dog. Hopefully VATSIM will rid themselves of the Gestapo-like supervisors and post up some rules that people can read... Instead of shooting people down without them knowing a single thing of what the guy with the gun is talking about.

Things get done slowly around here and there is always thousands of fingers to blame... Can anybody just FIX it?

This was not the first time that I have been spoken to in the rudest manner possible. There is a way to do things, and there is also a way not to do things. When I am spoken to in a rude manner by more than one of the Supervisors that I called "Gestapo" (only trying to refer to a select few SUP) there is something wrong in the upper management.

"Absolute power corrupts absolutely" and I can guarantee that there are some supervisors who love their position for the power trip it provides to them. There are also many supervisors who are kind and considerate- they are the ones who understand everything they do affects everyone around them. All I ask is that we rid ourselves of those Supervisors and Upper Management who are there for selfish reasons (eg. the power trip). Because, as stated in the quote, nobody likes to be spoken to like a dog (which goes along with the Gestapo reference).

Oh, and to respond to the statement made by "David Klain" (quoted above), you obviously don't understand the reference made. When someone is treated like a dog on the network, especially when that person is a controller trying to serve on the network you, along with many donations, pay over $8000 a year for, it gives off the impression of exactly what I said... "Gestapo"

Definition:
n.
1. gestapo pl., -pos. A police organization that employs terroristic methods to control a populace.

And by telling someone in a rude manner that they are wasting bandwidth and must turn down the vis range now... in my own opinion they fit the terrorist methods listed in the definition. The SUP is using his implied "power", to .kill, to enforce a rule that is not written, and is judgement based, to control the populace of Vatsim pilots and controllers. This fits the description.

I also do not appreciate someone with your "stature" telling me to think before I speak because I am 18 years old. Don't you believe that is a little beyond being conceited? This implies that your judgement is better than mine and that you have some sort of elitist position in the upper management. Most ATC/Pilots on here agree with the other ATC/pilots, and most SUPs agree with the other SUPs... There is obviously a line here that seems to be holding the two apart.

Spencer Devino
« Last Edit: February 08, 2010, 03:30:23 PM by Spencer Devino »

Bryan Wollenberg

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« Reply #48 on: February 08, 2010, 04:14:45 PM »
Quote from: Eduardo Passos
A pilot "should make a reasonable effort to determine if he's flying in a controlled airspace"  should be changed to must.

Eduardo, we're just arguing semantics, like lawyers.  Must, should, shall doesn't concern me in the slightest when it comes to B3.  It's very simple.  A pilot should make a reasonable effort to check for ATC and contact them.  The controller should use the .contactme feature to get a hold of pilots who are entering their airspace.  That's it.  It really is that simple.

J Jason Vodnansky

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« Reply #49 on: February 08, 2010, 05:07:59 PM »
Quote from: Bryan Wollenberg
Eduardo, we're just arguing semantics, like lawyers.  Must, should, shall doesn't concern me in the slightest when it comes to B3.  It's very simple.  A pilot should make a reasonable effort to check for ATC and contact them.  The controller should use the .contactme feature to get a hold of pilots who are entering their airspace.  That's it.  It really is that simple.

No Bryan, unfortunately it ISN'T that simple...

The very fact that you understand the difference in the terms and are STILL unwilling to do anything about just goes to further demonstrate your unwillingness to support those that you yourself, chose to delegate such authority to, and then down the chain.  Said another way, you tasked us with the responsibility, but remove all tools used to exercise any of it.

Nothing like passing off the responsibility/authority to those who are UNABLE to utilize it, and further tying their hands in the implementation of your responsibilities.  Yet, people wonder why there is such a disconnect.

Anyway, those who are in the positions of authority, and implementing policy and procedure need to take a step down a few level and have a look at the consequences of your decisions, sounds vaguely like a show I just watched, how fitting.  I digress...

Clearly VATNA1, the EC, and the BoG (collectively) have lost touch with (wow, it is so fitting too), those frontline members tasked with doing what they (VATNA, EC and the BoG) have tasked.  I don't want your job, but you better know what we deal with, before you start issuing edicts from "on high".

Best,
Jason Vodnansky

Thomas Flanary

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« Reply #50 on: February 08, 2010, 05:23:30 PM »
Too many resident lawyers at VATUSA... back to controlling.

Richard Jenkins

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« Reply #51 on: February 08, 2010, 05:37:24 PM »
Once upon a time there was a group of guys that got together and decided to try and make FS a little more exciting. They had a server running on a 56k modem in one of their basements on weekends only. Jason Grooms whipped a little app called ProController. Joe created SB, no mulitplayer mind you and Marty made it so the two apps could talk to each other..................

You want to set your range to 1500nm fine by me....maybe all of you should! I'll watch. Heaven forbid you should just try and help out without someone having to cram a piece of paper down your throat first.

Another policy? This in a thread where some the participants spend all their spare time in other threads screaming about too many policies.

Richard Jenkins

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« Reply #52 on: February 08, 2010, 05:37:57 PM »
Quote from: Tom Flanary
Too many resident lawyers at VATUSA... back to controlling.

Amen.

J Jason Vodnansky

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« Reply #53 on: February 08, 2010, 06:05:18 PM »
Quote from: Richard Jenkins
Once upon a time there was a group of guys that got together and decided to try and make FS a little more exciting. They had a server running on a 56k modem in one of their basements on weekends only. Jason Grooms whipped a little app called ProController. Joe created SB, no mulitplayer mind you and Marty made it so the two apps could talk to each other..................

You want to set your range to 1500nm fine by me....maybe all of you should! I'll watch. Heaven forbid you should just try and help out without someone having to cram a piece of paper down your throat first.

Another policy? This in a thread where some the participants spend all their spare time in other threads screaming about too many policies.


Yet, how amazingly screwed up it has become.  This most certainly isn't your father's VATSIM.  Too bad, it was such a good place.

Perhaps someone will stand up and fix it.

Best,
JV

Spencer Devino

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« Reply #54 on: February 08, 2010, 06:14:37 PM »
Quote from: J. Jason Vodnansky
Yet, how amazingly screwed up it has become.  This most certainly isn't your father's VATSIM.  Too bad, it was such a good place.

Perhaps someone will stand up and fix it.

Best,
JV

agreed.

Andrew Podner

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« Reply #55 on: February 08, 2010, 06:40:39 PM »
[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]how do I know this? because that is how the vatsim.info server got shut down. that server hosted a number of things including vatusa and bluehost pulled the plug due to excessive bandwidth usage[/quote]

One clarification,

Bluehost pulled the plug because the VATUSA site was hacked via an old Drupal installation that was never deleted off the server. They refused to restore service because the code was all PHP4 era and generally unsecure.  The server exploit that got us affected over 100,000 servers worldwide.

I apologized profusely to Mr. Klain that our site was the cause of it (mind you it was my first day as VATUSA6), and promptly paid for our own server the next day and took our IT off of VATSIM's dime & resources because I felt it was the right thing to do.  Not asking for accolades, just setting the record straight

I fully resent the notion that the VATUSA website was somehow a drain on VATSIM, nobody here has asked VATSIM for a penny nor have we asked for any special treatment for data services.  We have worked hard to be good stewards of their systems and have always err'd on the side of caution.  I am irritated by the idea that this was dredged up and misrepresented so as to put this division in a bad light particularly when our current site (which has much more content, feeds, etc now than it used to, plus it backs up offsite hourly) uses a "whopping" 4.5GB per month.

Luke Kolin

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« Reply #56 on: February 08, 2010, 06:48:51 PM »
Quote from: Richard Jenkins
Once upon a time there was a group of guys that got together and decided to try and make FS a little more exciting. They had a server running on a 56k modem in one of their basements on weekends only. Jason Grooms whipped a little app called ProController. Joe created SB, no mulitplayer mind you and Marty made it so the two apps could talk to each other..................

Yup, and just enough of them hung around after they stopped participating with the absolute ability to say no to anything they didn't like, but little ability to encourage people to do something that they wouldn't ordinarily do. Then they hired people to replace them that were really good at shutting things down and encouraging people to leave, but with no ability to bring in people and encourage them to participate.

It is not an exercise of leadership to shut down a discussion. It is not an exercise of leadership to defend the status quo and say things aren't going to change. It is not an exercise of leadership to tell volunteers that if they don't like it, to not let the door hit them on the way out.

I wonder if you asked that group of guys if just over a decade later they'd have an organization with pretend corporate memoranda straight out of Office Space that passes for the Broadcast policy, a ratings policy that takes two years to amend and a software development pipeline that produces marginally less code than Duke Nukem Forever, what would they say? Why don't you ask them, and get them to fix it? Because they're the only ones that can fix it within the confines of VATSIM. You (and they) have made sure of that.

Please. Make a network that's all about the cool stuff we can do, instead of a regulatory, bureaucratic and political nightmare that it has become.

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]You want to set your range to 1500nm fine by me....maybe all of you should! I'll watch.[/quote]

I bet FSD will handle it just fine. If someone actually ran the numbers they'd see that such a viz range adds around 0.25K/sec to the total bandwidth - if FSD can't handle that, it's not worth hiding behind an NDA. I really like the part in this thread where 50-100 requests a MINUTE are described as something high-volume, where I work that kind of throughput on commodity boxes gets you fired, because our devs have to actually go out of their way to write such low-volume code. Serving a static file out of memory is the kind of thing you can do 1,000 times a SECOND on a basic VPS box, and 300GB is the kind of bandwidth your provider tosses in FOR FREE at contract renewal.

I say this because there's a price to your excessive fascination on bandwidth, and it's called eliminating goodwill among members which is hard to measure, but worth a lot more than the piddly amount of bandwidth consumed. I've heard of cases of Supervisors bragging about the connections they've killed. I expect those are in the past, but this is yet another example of a misguided policy that has hurt you far more than the trivial amount of bandwidth it has saved.

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]Heaven forbid you should just try and help out without someone having to cram a piece of paper down your throat first.[/quote]

You should try writing software for VATSIM.

Cheers!

Luke

Richard Jenkins

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« Reply #57 on: February 08, 2010, 07:13:26 PM »
Quote from: Luke Kolin
Please. Make a network that's all about the cool stuff we can do, instead of a regulatory, bureaucratic and political nightmare that it has become.

Sure, turn off all the forums, mailing lists, TS servers and give me 30 days, turn your back, and just ignore the loud crashes and bangs in the background.

 

My excessive fascination with bandwidth? Hardly....
« Last Edit: February 08, 2010, 07:15:22 PM by Richard Jenkins »

Harold Rutila

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« Reply #58 on: February 08, 2010, 07:22:57 PM »
[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--][!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]Yet, how amazingly screwed up it has become. This most certainly isn't your father's VATSIM. Too bad, it was such a good place.

Perhaps someone will stand up and fix it.

Best,
JV[/quote]

agreed.
[/quote]
I would have to disagree with the sentiment that VATSIM has become screwed up. Too often in this organization do we tend to look at one issue as if it's going to bring down the network. As RJ said, this network was once a couple of guys who simulated ATC and flying via a now-obsolete version of FS and a now-obsolete program called ProController. The network has obviously expanded, and with expansion comes policy. In no way do I believe the policies enacted thus far create such a burden on anyone to the degree that the network is considered screwy. Anyone can still get on and fly, and anyone can still get on and control with a few hours of training. Nobody has to be involved in the political aspect of VATSIM, but some (including myself) sometimes choose to do so.

Each time an improvement is made to the network, at any level, only a select few seem to come forward and tell those who put work and effort into making the improvement possible. Improvements to the servers; websites of divisions, ARTCCs, FIRs, and ACCs; revisions of policies; and updates to software which we use to more realistically take part in the network happen very frequently -- once a month at the very least.

You can be annoyed by one particular thing that is (or isn't) in the CoC, you can be annoyed at the rather large number of roles filled at any level of the VATSIM bureaucracy (<- which is not a bad word, you know), or you can just be annoyed. But stop dwelling on these minute problems as if we're going to come tumbling down because of them. There are so many good people on and things about this network that make it great, but unfortunately those tend to be overshadowed by a few things that some consider negatives.

I agree with Andrew and many others in that the CoC should include at least a small mention of visibility ranges, if not a fully laid out explanation, if the visibility range issue is indeed fueled by bandwidth cost. (Some say it is, others say it isn't, but I'm not going to go there.) It does not have to be a "suggestion" or a "recommendation" as alluded to by some within this thread. People can simply not be expected to be reasonable with this regulation if there is no written rule about it. If there is something written, even if deemed a matter of interpretation (which I am not saying that it should be), there is at least some substantiation to back up those who enforce this regulation.

I have a suggestion for the BoG if mention of a visibility range is ever considered for entry into the CoC:
"Excessive visibility ranges (or visibility points) may be enforced by SUP- or ADM-rated VATSIM members. "Excessive" is defined as a visibility which exceeds the following conditions:
1.) a viewing of their sector of airspace.
2.) a viewing of the distance at which a handoff is normally initiated to his or her sector of airspace.
In the event that controllers' visibility ranges are deemed excessive with reference to the conditions set forth above, a SUP- or ADM- rated VATSIM member may require them to reduce their visibility range to comply with those conditions."
I really don't know why that is so hard to include. I know that we sometimes have problems with policy, but this is something many of us just don't understand. There's a difference between an annoying policy and a purpose-based policy, and I think (if this is a bandwidth issue) that something like what I wrote is a purpose-based policy.

I would also like to address one other point, which is that it is the responsibility of ARTCC training departments to teach students about the visibility range issue. I spent a year as a Training Administrator in one of the ARTCCs here in VATUSA, and nowhere within any documentation in my ARTCC's archives, in any VATUSA training material, or in any briefing I received from my retiring colleague, VATUSA Regional Director, or VATUSA3 did I ever hear mention of teaching about visibility ranges. I truly would have had my I1s and MTRs incorporate this into training, but I had nothing that requested we do so, verbally or textually. I'm sure not much has changed with regard to the same subject. If indeed this is an issue that should be taught, I believe regions and divisions should be informed (or re-informed) about it somehow.

David Klain

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« Reply #59 on: February 08, 2010, 07:30:31 PM »
Quote from: Harold Rutila
I would also like to address one other point, which is that it is the responsibility of ARTCC training departments to teach students about the visibility range issue. I spent a year as a Training Administrator in one of the ARTCCs here in VATUSA, and nowhere within any documentation in my ARTCC's archives, in any VATUSA training material, or in any briefing I received from my retiring colleague, VATUSA Regional Director, or VATUSA3 did I ever hear mention of teaching about visibility ranges. I truly would have had my I1s and MTRs incorporate this into training, but I had nothing that requested we do so, verbally or textually. I'm sure not much has changed with regard to the same subject. If indeed this is an issue that should be taught, I believe regions and divisions should be informed (or re-informed) about it somehow.

Harold, great point.  It was an implied task but wasn't written down anywhere (the implied task being "how do I setup or configure my controller client software?".  That was fixed with GRP 2.,0 and would now be included in I.A.1 (Setup, Configure and Connect to the network).

Dave
« Last Edit: February 08, 2010, 07:30:56 PM by Dave Klain »