Integrity of the Network

[Ira Robinson]

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]3. There has been heavy attrition amongst controllers who work their way up through GND, TWR, Major TRACON, CTR and leave shortly after obtaining CTR certification. This tells me that after putting in all of their hard work, their expectations of the network were not met and they sought there entertainment elsewhere. It also may be a symptom of real life obligations crowding out time for VATSIM, or it may be a symptom of VATSIM burn out.[/quote]

Manny don't forget  that ever present mindset....... "I beat the game."

Ira

[Ira Robinson]

So lets see if I have this now.  Option #1 respond to Manuel and Justin about how to keep people interested within some type of reasonable learning environment.  Then there's option #2, dive in and start adding my thoughts on how large and all encompassing our documentation should be and whether or not the controller must learn it or simply learn how to referrance it because I have 4 major facilities in my artcc and that would be great if I didn't have to learn it all and still be a cool CTR controller, or #3, jump in with both feet and pick sides in the my artcc is better than your artcc arguement because it was your fault in the first place and how dare you insult my mother and....  [breath] .....   Oh wait. Oh whatever......

Jesus guys.  


"We have met the enemy and he is us"  (Pogo)


Ira

[Brian Pryor]

The fighting needs to stop in this thread.

It's obvious some people have strong feelings about neighboring facilities and people past and present in staff positions there.

You guys are supposed to be leaders in your facilities, it's time to start acting like that and rise above petty fighting.

[Gene Cao]

In response to the original question; I believe that the amount of pilot knowledge has been dropping. I can even notice it even though I have only been a part of the network for a year. However, I believe it is a community that is required to deal with the problem. I know plenty of controllers that when a new pilot tries to get help who obviously is just starting out on VATSIM is ignored. The controllers are no longer offering this to new pilots. I believe it is a general attitude that drives this. The general attitude used to be "welcome to the network" compared to now being "I'm busy, read the PRC". Lets be honest, nobody wants to read the PRC when they first join VATSIM. They are supposed to but reading a long document just isn't very interesting; especially if you are just trying the network out. It is important that people give back to VATSIM. Remember when each one of us joined the network, lost, not knowing what to do. It was through one of the members that we were able to enjoy this network. Something has gone terribly wrong; now its an exclusive club that only those that know can join.

I don't think it's something new we have to implement or anything, just our mindsets toward helping out the new pilots.

[Bob Carmona]

In response to the original question, I too believe that pilot AND controller knowledge has dropped at a geometric rate. The reason for this is because a great many of the ones coming to network now have zero regard for any rules. They have no desire to EARN anything. But mostly because they view this network as a game. It's not about flight simulation for them. They just think it is "cool" to get on the network with all the people. The busier the airspace is, the more these gamers show up.

Only one way to fix that. Start taking the "if you don't like it, leave" approach to them that is being applied to the members that want to keep this network a simulation and not a game. It's not at all hard to say "Either get with the program like so many before you or hit the road, you are wasting my time". Sure you will lose "members". So what? The only ones being lost are the ones that disrupt the network and come in these forums to whine and cry about how hard and unfair it is. Maybe if we took that "so what?" stance towards losing them that is taken when a long-time productive member leaves...

[Bob Carmona]

[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]I know plenty of controllers that when a new pilot tries to get help who obviously is just starting out on VATSIM is ignored. The controllers are no longer offering this to new pilots. I believe it is a general attitude that drives this. The general attitude used to be "welcome to the network" compared to now being "I'm busy, read the PRC".[/quote]

To some extent this is true. Many times, I am "unavailable" to teach a pilot to fly. Not because I am annoyed. I am too busy trying to get the 2 or 3 "gamers" in my airspace that are trashing the sequence I worked so hard for to follow my simplest of instructions like turn on your transponder or get off the runway and reconnect at the gate.

As far as having to read the PRC or hell, anything at all, why should someone have to teach someone something they can learn by simply reading about it? I have no problem helping someone that will help themselves... If they can't even do that, then please, go away. That's my attitude. If you want to help yourself though, I will spend all the time with you that you need.

[Ira Robinson]

In response to the original question, I too believe that pilot AND controller knowledge has dropped at a geometric rate. The reason for this is because a great many of the ones coming to network now have zero regard for any rules. They have no desire to EARN anything. But mostly because they view this network as a game. It's not about flight simulation for them. They just think it is "cool" to get on the network with all the people. The busier the airspace is, the more these gamers show up.

Only one way to fix that. Start taking the "if you don't like it, leave" approach to them that is being applied to the members that want to keep this network a simulation and not a game. It's not at all hard to say "Either get with the program like so many before you or hit the road, you are wasting my time". Sure you will lose "members". So what? The only ones being lost are the ones that disrupt the network and come in these forums to whine and cry about how hard and unfair it is. Maybe if we took that "so what?" stance towards losing them that is taken when a long-time productive member leaves...

Agreed. As I said earlier,
[!--quoteo--][div class=\\\'quotetop\\\']QUOTE [/div][div class=\\\'quotemain\\\'][!--quotec--]People have to learn that sometimes "no" is an answer. We can't be everything to everybody. We just are what we are and we should not be changing what has worked all these years just because a new generation of players want to make the game easier.[/quote]
When I have a dozen aircraft at JFK all looking for clearance and taxi and departure instructions I don't have time to wet nurse a newbie. But I do have time to ask him to wait 10 minutes and I'll take him over to ISP and walk him through some stuff if he wants some help.

What I don't have the time for either is the newbie who blows that off because he doesn't want to wait or an experienced pilot or controller or SUP jumping on my back because I didn't help the newbie out in a "timely" manner.

I can't tell you how many times I have had to listen to the speach about why didn't you help the guy instead of just telling him leave JFK and go elsewhere.  Well, that is a little out of context but no one seems to notice that.

I'll say it again; we can't be all things to all people and the sooner people understand that the sooner we can back to helping those who do want it.  

And I'm sorry if that if is upsetting to some people who have been around a while and remember when this was a friendlier place.  But we're a little bigger now and unfortunately there isn't as much time to chat on frequency and get to know each other like before.  

Ira

[Dan Leavitt]

Here's the problem I see happening with the network.
1st, you have this attitude of "I'm too lazy, i want someone to do all the work for me." That's been discussed already, so I'll leave it at that.
2nd: This thought has probably come up, but I don't think I've seen it said in this thread.  In order for someone to control any position on the network, they at the very least have to take a VATUSA exam, and go through some sort of training. The pilots on the other hand, have their free email account that they can register with, and done, they're on the network. What if we required the pilots to take a VATSIM exam, built around flying, with some ATC components in it, so they know what they're getting into, and maybe some sort of training program, ie: a moodle, atutor, etc... Sure it will take some work to get set up, but it would be for the good of the network. We're already half-way there with the pilot ratings, now lets go all the way and have these exams and training site. It could bring back the integrity of the network. Like I said, it's probably been brought up somewhere, but with all the new issues coming to light, maybe it's time for another look at the idea.

DL

[Cameron Negrete]

2nd: This thought has probably come up, but I don't think I've seen it said in this thread.  In order for someone to control any position on the network, they at the very least have to take a VATUSA exam, and go through some sort of training. The pilots on the other hand, have their free email account that they can register with, and done, they're on the network. What if we required the pilots to take a VATSIM exam, built around flying, with some ATC components in it, so they know what they're getting into, and maybe some sort of training program, ie: a moodle, atutor, etc... Sure it will take some work to get set up, but it would be for the good of the network. We're already half-way there with the pilot ratings, now lets go all the way and have these exams and training site. It could bring back the integrity of the network. Like I said, it's probably been brought up somewhere, but with all the new issues coming to light, maybe it's time for another look at the idea.

DL

i would think this really is possible and should be implemented.  Open book test just like our basic ATC test when we join vatusa.

[Scott DeWoody]

Derek VATSIM has existed for long enough that I don't in my opinion feel that this will burn down in flames. I wish you and the others the best in your future plans by the sounds of it.

As Gary said many people have done great work and made strides in the hobby and specifically to the division.

The realism factor has been a problem since day 1 of VATSIM and I in my heart of hearts believe that the founders knew this and have done the best they can while working to keep a balance.

As has been said previous while many have gained a career or grown to be the best darn controller in the virtual world the scale is always sliding. For every person that reaches mastery if you will at controlling there are several in the wings just starting up. The same goes for pilots as we have experienced pilots we have also gained the new and inexperienced.

With due respect to everyone who didn't come into this with real world experience, who the hell are we to suddenly raise the bar higher and push out people who lack the level of skill to be professional. If someone had done that to you 1, 2, 5, 10 years ago when you started my guess is you'd have a different opinion. What we have here people is a disconnection from where we came from and that is not an excuse to push progress and tighter restrictions onto the backs of new and future members of this network.

At the end of the day no matter how well intended a network is designed there will always be someone making a mistake. It happens IRL all the time in the aviation industry or else the NTSB wouldn't have a job. If those demanding ultra realism were actually held to the standard and made a mistake, would they be ok with being fired, in some countries thrown in jail? I'm being extreme here but that's what ultra realism becomes right?

People need to at the end of the day accept VATSIM for what it is, it is a place where people come to enjoy aviation. On a technical scale it's a computer simulation network that provides virtual ATC to virtual pilots.

It was never designed at it's core to be an professional ATC or Pilot training tool. To provide ultra realism for a select few.

It's about sharing the hobby of aviation with anyone who enjoys it using flight simulators and radar clients to facilitate giving a world of ATC to what would be a computer generated voice.

If someone learns a thing or two along the way then that's great, a lot of us are here for the community and that is what separates us from any of the competitors past, present, or future which try to give a niche to an already niche market.

For those that wish to have ultra realism I challenge you to seek out a career in that field, take college courses as some already have and embrace real life for what it is. Take it to the next level.

To that same group I ask this, rather than become jaded towards new members embrace them and teach them. Remember where you came from and don't try to steal what we have made here as a community.

This thread kills me.  This quote from Brian is right on, and Brian and I don't agree on alot of things, but I must say, this was brilliant.  I joined this network as a hobby, I was a real world aviator for over 20 years in the USNavy, and now just enjoy flying and controlling in a hobbylike envirnment.  It was not in the founders intent to create a stepping stone for r/w ATC or pilots, but as Brian said, if some actually learns something along the way.... FANTASTIC..

So quit slinging mud, get out there and fly, and or contol, and don't let the "children"(that try to ruin every good thing that is presented to them) stop you from enjoying yourselves.

[Matt Fuoco]

This thread kills me.  This quote from Brian is right on, and Brian and I don't agree on alot of things, but I must say, this was brilliant.  I joined this network as a hobby, I was a real world aviator for over 20 years in the USNavy, and now just enjoy flying and controlling in a hobbylike envirnment.  It was not in the founders intent to create a stepping stone for r/w ATC or pilots, but as Brian said, if some actually learns something along the way.... FANTASTIC..

So quit slinging mud, get out there and fly, and or contol, and don't let the "children"(that try to ruin every good thing that is presented to them) stop you from enjoying yourselves.

+1 Scott.  Right on.

[Matthew Bartels]

For those that wish to have ultra realism I challenge you to seek out a career in that field, take college courses as some already have and embrace real life for what it is. Take it to the next level.

What's the easy answer for those of us that have a disibility that prohibits us from doing that Brian?

This is why I train myself to such standards. It allows me to live out a dream impossible in real life. I don't care what direction the founders want to take the network. I really don't. However the day they tell me that I can't control the way I control because it's too realistic and not accpetable here, I'm gone.

[Brian Pryor]

What's the easy answer for those of us that have a disibility that prohibits us from that Brian?

I don't know of an easy answer Matthew, life is full of challenges for everyone. Part of living is working with those challenges to the best of our ability. Sometimes no matter how hard we try things just aren't obtainable and part of life is accepting that.

For me , age is a disability I can never become an FAA ATC because i've got less than 30 days till i'm 30 (I believe the cutoff is appointment  by age 30).

I've come to accept that VATSIM will be the closest thing to working as an air traffic controller. I only have myself to blame for not pursuing the career earlier but that's beside the point.

VATSIM while for some like me and i'm guessing you allows us to throw on the headset and for a small period of time live the dream of being an air traffic controller. No matter how hard we try at the end of the day reality sets in that this is a simulation.

It's not meant to be a substitute or a training stepping stone for the real thing no matter how hard we want it. We have to accept the network for what it is and enjoy it for the same reasons.

I hope my post provides some clarity.

[Chris McGee]

It's not meant to be a substitute or a training stepping stone for the real thing no matter how hard we want it.

This is Brain's opinion, not a VATSIM rule or regulation. It can be and is a substitute for many VATSIM controllers. It's also a training stepping stone into not only an ATC career but dispatcher or pilot. Some of us like realism other like arcade. This is the best part of the diversity of VATUSA.

[Brian Pryor]

Chris I think you misunderstood me, it's also the opinion of the founders from my understanding of their responses to the issues on the forums. There is no rule but on the flip policies like GRP prevent facilities from forcing the bar of realism onto the backs of the VATSIM membership.

As in my original post if someone is able to learn with VATSIM and grow that's great but the focus is not on making any facilities training that which is a stepping stone to the real thing. Some here want that ultra realistic 100% accurate training environment to which the founders have said was not the design, intent, or purpose of VATSIM.